USAF/US NAVY 6th Generation Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

[SteveO]

I'd like to see the USN revisit the missiler concept instead of a manned F/A-XX.

Give it supersonic biz-jet performance, a four crew cockpit (plus a toilet ), a large internal and external weapons fit (at least twice the capacity of the F-35C), a remote gun turret on the tail or belly that can later be upgraded to laser and a comprehensive sensor and communications fit capable of controlling UCAVs and all current and future weapons.

Think of it as a Super Prowler/Viking with a touch of E-2 Hawkeye ;D

The gun turret is mainly for gunship (AC-130) type missions, it would also have a belly full of SDBs and JDAMs and rockets and missiles on the wings. The gun would come in handy for ocean patrols too, warning shots or attacking small craft.

Laser turret, hypersonic cruise missiles and long range air to air missiles could be fitted for advanced threats.

Four crew cockpit and toilet would certainly help with time over target in low intensity conflicts and could be of benefit controlling UCAVs during higher intensity conflicts.

 

[bobbymike]

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2009/October%202009/1009fighter.aspx

I know on this website and others there has been considerable discussion about ending F-22 production. The comments range from "good don't need it" to "stupidest defense decisions ever" (I fall into the later group) That said some, including myself, have said maybe just maybe there is some development program "in the black" that will lead to a 6th generations fighter.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Yes, the whole F-22 program was an exercise in "Maskirovka" where the wily Americans spend $62 billion to fool Russia into thinking that was their next generation fighter while secretly developing their real next generation real fighter plane in Area 51, no doubt assembled by Elvis, Jimmy Hoffa and the aliens from the Roswell crash.

Seriously, I doubt there's a secret next generation fighter.

 

[bobbymike]

Wishful thinking, dear sir, wishful thinking

 

[avatar]

You know something,

Prima facie what Paul is saying obviously makes sense.


But I do remember a Boeing press thingy where they offered India a "4.75" generation Supar Dupaar Hornet which *may* give India the ability to *transition* into a sixth generation fighter that Boeing will introduce in the future.

Now funny as the above sounds it probably came in response to LM's MMRCA pitch were they talked about a "flight path" from a Block 70 Falcon to the F-35 fifth generation.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Translation - *If* Boeing get some money now off you for a substandard not-actually-5th generation plane, you get a shot at their 6th generation plane. Whenever that happens. Standard "jam tomorrow" scenario.

Given the money that F-22 and F-35 have cost, isn't there a funding issue with that?

 

[Michel Van]

if i look on development in U.S. Military last years
i think that the 6th generation Fighter remain a "Paper plane" for the next 30 years.

why ?

the high cost on F-22 ($62 billion) and F-35 program ($40 billion)
the U.S. Military has to replace 4th generation F-15, F-16, F/A-18, AV-8, A-10, Harrier
with 5th generation F-35 (the Total cost gonna be $200 billion in 2025)
USAF needs also B-3 Bomber to replace B-1B and B-52H around 2025-2035
the U.S. NAVY need also new Aircraft "F/A-19" http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3536.0.html
and new nuclear aircraft carriers, that all cost hundreds billions of Dollar !
also the U.S. mission in Iraq and Afghanistan need also money

the evolution between 4th and 5th generation Fighter was 24 years
F-16 R&D 10 years and 47 years in service until 2025 then replace by F-35
F-35 R&D 10 years and 50 Years in service ? makes 2062
so R&D for a 6th generation Fighter would begin not earlier then 2040

 

[Skybolt]

All corect. Just an aside, but worthy of discussion. A "Maskirovka" program has actually been done (and succedeed): everything regarding hypermonouvrability in dogfight, from AFTI to X-31, inducing USSR to develop aircrafts like the Berkut.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Hmm... AFTI was pretty serious, I wouldn't say it was any kind of deception.

 

[Matej]

the U.S. NAVY need also new Aircraft "F/A-19" http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3536.0.html

That's it. That is the 6th generation fighter, that Boeing is talking about all the time. They must be pretty sure, that the USAF with its F-22 and F-35 wont have any need for the new manned fighter for a loooong time, so they are focusing their work on the F/A-18E/F replacement, sometime in the 2030.

so R&D for a 6th generation Fighter would begin not earlier then 2040

I don't think so. In my opinion we will see the prototype of the 6th generation fighter in 2030. However I am not sure, what it will be. I bet my money to the unmanned solution, if the X-47B will not enter the service as the unmanned tactical bomber for some reason. If it does, then the 6th generation fighter should be optionally manned.

 

[sferrin]

Wishful thinking, dear sir, wishful thinking

Dude what are you thinking? All that new construction out at Area 51 is for weather balloons.

 

[AeroFranz]

so R&D for a 6th generation Fighter would begin not earlier then 2040

If that's the case (and it could be, I honestly don't know), there is litterally going to be a generational gap of engineers with the know-how to build such a fighter. How many people who worked on JSF or F-22 are still going to be around in 30 years? How many will still remember "how it's done"?
I guess UCAVs would allow the retention of some proficiency, but that's not quite the same thing.

 

[bobbymike]

sferrin - doesn't mean wishes don't come true!

But for the record I read, online, every month the AFA publication and they are not really one's to wildly speculate on future programs and if you remember I had a quote on another thread from a LockMart VP who talked about several programs with a couple he could not even talk about.

 

[Skybolt]

Surely AFTI was serious, but the results and strategic direction building on its results were publicity constructed so to convince the Soviet that the way to go was hypermonouvrability in close quarters, while the ATF went in another direction entirely (supercruise, high-altitude manouvrability for vantage positioning in missile launch, lomng range detection of enemy, stealth).

 

[Michel Van]

the U.S. NAVY need also new Aircraft "F/A-19" http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3536.0.html

That's it. That is the 6th generation fighter, that Boeing is talking about all the time. They must be pretty sure, that the USAF with its F-22 and F-35 wont have any need for the new manned fighter for a loooong time, so they are focusing their work on the F/A-18E/F replacement, sometime in the 2030.

so R&D for a 6th generation Fighter would begin not earlier then 2040

I don't think so. In my opinion we will see the prototype of the 6th generation fighter in 2030. However I am not sure, what it will be. I bet my money to the unmanned solution, if the X-47B will not enter the service as the unmanned tactical bomber for some reason. If it does, then the 6th generation fighter should be optionally manned.

OK then year 2030
i also think is gonna be a UCAV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCAV
even with Artificial intelligence as Pilot

in worst case with budget problems
Democrats could take this solution for the F/A-19

 

[avatar]

That's it. That is the 6th generation fighter, that Boeing is talking about all the time. They must be pretty sure, that the USAF with its F-22 and F-35 wont have any need for the new manned fighter for a loooong time, so they are focusing their work on the F/A-18E/F replacement, sometime in the 2030.

Yup. The boeing thingy did talk about "carrier capable" .

To Overscan,

The Indian Airforce had initially been very sceptical about the F-18 E/F dismissing it as a naval fighter. But then Boeing et al started dropping hints about APG-** and things started looking better for them.

Of course nobody buys the 4.75 generation crap. this was supposed to be a SH with reduced frontal cross section and improved maneuverability through possible thrust vectoring.

 

[sferrin]

sferrin - doesn't mean wishes don't come true!

But for the record I read, online, every month the AFA publication and they are not really one's to wildly speculate on future programs and if you remember I had a quote on another thread from a LockMart VP who talked about several programs with a couple he could not even talk about.

I know, I was kidding.

 

[Matej]

I am just curious, how the possible production version of the X-47B will fit into the F/A-18E/F and F-35C force mix. How will be the tasks spread between them? Will the X-47B be guided by the second crew member in F/A-18, manned from the aircraft carrier or will they allow to use the mostly autonomous mode? It is critical to determine the role of the X-47B derivate when you want to predict the requirements/characteristics of the next 6th generation plane. If there is no X-47B, than it is easy - the new fighter will be the long range optionally manned F/A-18 replacement. But now there are too many variables for any accurate prediction.

 

[donnage99]

anyone got a larger version of this picture in the article?

 

[flateric]

Northrop Grumman, obviously...and Air Force editor
seriously, no, haven't seen yet...wish I'd had it too

 

[donnage99]

They also have a much better picture of the boeing 6th generation fighter illustration than the one provided by Trimble that was taken by a camera off a powerpoint. Too bad it's small also.

 

[flateric]

no, not so good as these

 

[donnage99]

You can always rely on the Honorable Flateric ;D Thanks a bunch, man!

 

[fightingirish]

no, not so good as these

In the latest magazine "Air Forces Monthly" I saw another version version of that picture "fa-xx_02.jpg"
The second F/A-XX in background seemed to be a UCAV, because it had no transparent canopy.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I am just curious, how the possible production version of the X-47B will fit into the F/A-18E/F and F-35C force mix. How will be the tasks spread between them? Will the X-47B be guided by the second crew member in F/A-18, manned from the aircraft carrier or will they allow to use the mostly autonomous mode? It is critical to determine the role of the X-47B derivate when you want to predict the requirements/characteristics of the next 6th generation plane. If there is no X-47B, than it is easy - the new fighter will be the long range optionally manned F/A-18 replacement. But now there are too many variables for any accurate prediction.

There is no answer to this question because it has yet to be determined. There are many that would argue (and have) that the X-47B can fully equip a strike fighter squadron and replace the F/A-18s alongside (or even in place of) the F-35C. However carrier air wings are run by naval aviators and NFOs who then would not have much to do (even as LSOs as the damn thing lands itself). So the counter argument is that UCAVs are inherently un-combat-worthy and each carrier should only have a few for long range ISR and IFR. If the institution triumphs in such a case it is likely that each carrier will just take onboard up to 10-12 X-47Bs (or MQ-19s as they are likely to be redesignated) in addition to the current wing. As the X-47B has a very low spotting factor and the carrier air wing is not pushing the upper limits of space on the super carriers this could be accommodated alongside the four strike fighter squadrons (F/A-18, F-35C, F/A-XX) and the EA-18Gs, E-2Ds and MH-60s.

 

[Just call me Ray]

Well first of all I'm in no position to offer facts, just opinions on what I think things should be or what I think things are going. Take it as you will.

Overall I like the article and I think it has some pretty good ideas.

I've already stated my thoughts on future fighter development, but I'm pretty convinced that we may look at not so much a 6th generation fighter but an integrated system, the biggest component of which will be cheap, autonomous strike craft.

 

[Spring]

This whole "6th generation" is probably a marketing exercise against the incoming pakfa...

I have not seen a real definition about "6th gen", just the typical "more this, more that" a definition for "6th generation" could be, for example, unmanned vehicles.

Although i would classify generations more on their aerodynamics and airframe, rather than on systems and such, since is technically possible to turn a F-15 unmanned, and call it next generation....as i said, there is not a real definition for the 6th generation thing.

Boeing does not have a competitive product for the projected 2015 market, lockheed got the F35, the russians will play with the Pakfa, Boeing needs a 5th generation program, and they are aiming the USN carrier fleet for this, and now that you are there, name it "6th gen" for the hype on the public...

 

[Colonial-Marine]

I agree with Spring regarding Boeing's F/A-XX offering. I think it is still a 5th generation design even with better stealth qualities and other new features they will offer it with. I just hope to see the real deal before 2025 or whatever the Navy's date for F/A-XX to enter service is.

There is certainly no clear definition for what a 6th generation fighter includes, but there are features I think we are likely to see on such a design. Directed energy weapons, more extensive stealth qualities, sensors providing 360 degree situational awareness, greater supersonic speeds (or even hypersonic depending on propulsion developments), and possibly active camouflage.

Unmanned fighters will certainly be around but I don't know if all of these things features will be integrated into UCAVs. However I imagine a manned 6th gen fighter would have the ability to share data from the unmanned systems (video/IR feed from a UAV orbiting a battlefield for example), and may have the capability to command such UAVs if the need arises.

 

[donnage99]

This whole "6th generation" is probably a marketing exercise against the incoming pakfa...

Nope, it's mostly boeing's marketing excercise against lockheed's f-35. It's not as much for Boeing's 6th generation fighter itself, but rather to continue production of the super hornet.

As for what the Air Force says about 6th generation fighter, they are just looking at options right now of what 6th generation mean. If you actually read the article, they never give any indication of having a definition of 6th generation yet. The PAK FA is intended to be 5th generation fighter, its competition is with other 5th generation fighters such as f-22 or f-35, so if there's any propaganda, it's "f-35 or f-22 are more effective than PAK-FA," and not pulling out the far fetched "6th generation" as propaganda against PAK-FA.

 

[bobbymike]

donnage99 - Seeing that this comes from the AFA, a big, big Air Force proponent, obviously, I think it is an "early warning" article that says, in affect, despite what is going on with the F-22 and F-35 the US better continue to explore modernization as these systems take so long to become operational.

I read the AFA website often and I get the feeling that there is a lot of fear that the Air Force will take the brunt of budget cuts and that those will come from modernization accounts.

 

[donnage99]

Here's my poor try to make the pic bigger:

 

[Matej]

Worth the time. Thanx!

 

[donnage99]

You're welcomed, Matej!

Anyone have any idea of what's goin' on at the inlet? I can't really put myself around the shape of it.

 

[Mike OTDP]

There are a couple of factors involved here.

The USAF and USN had very different approaches to TACAIR in the 1990s. The USAF put its money on the F-22 to replace the F-15, with the "F"-35 (it really is an attack aircraft) to replace the F-16. The Navy bought the F/A-18 E/F as a stopgap...and has never been terribly enthusiastic about F-35. The Navy is thinking more about fielding F/A-XX in about 10-12 years.

The situation is reminiscent of the late 1950s/early 1960s. The USAF put its money into Mach 3 hardware that never came to fruition, while the Navy took a more conservative course...and wound up with classics like the F-4 Phantom.

 

[bobbymike]

From Insidedefense.com (Inside the Air Force) -

AIR FORCE TO START EXPLORING F-22A REPLACEMENT AROUND MIDDLE OF DECADE
The Air Force will start looking at a replacement for its fifth-generation F-22A Raptor toward the middle of the decade with the goal of fielding a new fighter by 2025, a Pentagon report reveals.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are we to believe that work will start in 2015 with "fielding" in ten years? Now this is just "crazy" talk or there is work being done today in some form. I go back to a statement by a Lockheed engineer about "several ongoing aircraft projects" with some he cannot talk about. Combine this with a FY2011 black budget of over $56 billion and.........

 

[flateric]

from April Boeing Frontiers plus two more in less resolution

 

[Sundog]

Thanks, that larger image gives some detail on the exhausts. They obviously aren't vectored in pitch, but based on their shape, I would bet the thrust is vectored in yaw, probably using fluidic controls. Now Boeing just needs to release a good underside pic of the concept and post relatively detailed drawings here, so we can analyze it. ;D

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

^second for flight stability control

 

[lantinian]

They obviously aren't vectored in pitch, but based on their shape, I would bet the thrust is vectored in yaw, probably using fluidic controls.

I see even less chance for a yaw TVC even with fluidic controls IMHO. The whole nozzle design is like a even stealthier version of the YF-23 nozzle configuration. Reminds me of the artist impressions of ATF from the early 80's.

 

[mz]

These probably use the wing hole elevons, documented on some thing on NTRS IIRC.