USAF/US NAVY 6th Generation Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

[Maro.Kyo]

If they're not progressing with NGAD, they need to build more F-22s in the meantime.

Since the reason they've been touting is that they nees a reevaluation of priorities in requirements and what they nees in fighting in the Pacific, I think it's quite clear that F-22, the plane which they deemed inadequate for those requirements, wouln't cut it.

NGAD is almost a decade away.

Going by how thinga are progressing, I'd say it would take well over a decade at the earliest.

The Pacific Ocean didn't get larger over the last few years. The threat from the Chinese has remained constant.

First part is definitwey true geography-wise, but from operations perspective, safe-zone for the US and allied forces shrank, whereas Chinese are of operatiom/their "bastion" significantly grew.

The second part I definitely can't agree. Their A2AD capabilities as well as C4ISR within the theatre have constantly improved, none-stop, every year.

Though I'd agree that the chanhe is incremental, not revolutionary, and it's not something the USAF would not have been able to anticipate and change their minds on NGAD all of the sudden.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

I think this crucially gives time not only for the USAF themselves but for LM (and maybe Boeing) to un-fuck themselves. Before anything, if I'd be in charge I'll also want to get things sorted out for the F-35 before embarking on a highly technologically advanced fighter development.

Especially considering a lot of the major problem caused during JSF was due to technology immaturity and concurrent technology research and aircraft development. Those technologies which are touted as next-gen don't really seem mature enough either.

Well at least they wouldn't have shortage of programmers unlike how it used to be just a few years ago.

 

[Forest Green]

Since the reason they've been touting is that they nees a reevaluation of priorities in requirements and what they nees in fighting in the Pacific, I think it's quite clear that F-22, the plane which they deemed inadequate for those requirements, wouln't cut it.

And 'absolutely nothing' cuts it even less well...

 

[Forest Green]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1818418714586358020

View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1818418714586358020

Air Force Secretary "Absolutely Confident" 6th Gen Crewed Fighter Will Move Forward (Updated)

Secretary Kendall has moved to allay fears about the future of the service’s sixth-generation combat jet as the program takes a brief pause. Secretary of the Air Force has moved to allay fears about the future of the service’s sixth-generation stealth combat jet.

www.twz.com

Colonel Tasked With Testing Future Of Air Dominance Talks Candidly About Progress And Challenges

We talk in-depth with the 53rd Wing Commander about how his organization is deeply engaged with the latest capabilities for USAF warfighters.

www.twz.com

 

[flateric]

Air Force ‘Taking a Pause’ on NGAD, Kendall Says

The Air Force is pausing the NGAD fighter program to examine whether it's the right solution and affordable, Secretary Frank Kendall said.

www.airandspaceforces.com

 

[okakac]

No recent rumours of Navy Fighter 2017 in this country.

(When translated this means they apparently have not made a choice between the low end and the high end. The high clearly might be feasible with the American tech level in 10 years time, as noted in a post above)

 

[Nicolas10]

Not to be repetitive but this seemed to come with the confluence of

F-15EX
Very long range AAMs
CCAs

And maybe thinking “do we need a $300 million stealth fighter?”

And also manned or unmanned.

 

[sublight_]

 

[sublight_]

On May 31, 2022, Safran Landing Systems Canada Inc. announced receiving a contract from Lockheed to design and qualify a landing gear structure for a “future aircraft.” Most flying demonstrators borrow landing gear from existing aircraft. The expense required to design a new landing gear generally is reserved for programs of record, not one-offs. At the time, Safran and Lockheed declined to elaborate on the announcement.

I see it was mentioned here in 2022.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/usaf-us-navy-6g-fighter-programs-f-a-xx-f-x-ngad-pca-asfs-news.3536/post-536623

What other non NGAD aircraft would be mass produced?

 

[Maro.Kyo]

And 'absolutely nothing' cuts it even less well...

Absolutely nothing also means that you don't pay for anything

 

[Forest Green]

Absolutely nothing also means that you don't pay for anything

Dollar bills are useless at air combat and SEAD. According to this China already has 200 J-20s in service, so more than the number of F-22s at present.

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/M8qFbKTo4do

 

[snne]

Dollar bills are useless at air combat and SEAD. According to this China already has 200 J-20s in service, so more than the number of F-22s at present.

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/M8qFbKTo4do

Half a year ago we were already estimating between 280-300 aircraft to be in service. Last year they produced around 70-80 aircraft and this year they'll most likely produce close to 100 by the end and this is not even the most optimistic estimate we have.

Edit: Also, that clickbait video is pure trash and a waste of time, I personally wouldn't consume any media that trashes one thing and then goes on to praise something else without providing substantial proof first.

 

[TomcatViP]

I see it was mentioned here in 2022.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/usaf-us-navy-6g-fighter-programs-f-a-xx-f-x-ngad-pca-asfs-news.3536/post-536623

What other non NGAD aircraft would be mass produced?

Oh, it was even mentioned a little bit earlier

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/usaf-us-navy-6g-fighter-programs-f-a-xx-f-x-ngad-pca-asfs-news.3536/post-535263

We do things promptly here.

 

[Archibald]

We need a YouTube moratorium, as they did for nukes in the 1960's. Too much clickbait bullshit videos over the last two days.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

We need a YouTube moratorium, as they did for nukes in the 1960's. Too much clickbait bullshit videos over the last two days.

That wouldn't be enough. Look at the sort of articles on defense matters that get to the top of the unholy algorithms used by Google, MSN, and everyone else these days. Anytime I read something from "The National Interest" it's just insulting to whatever brain cells I have left.

 

[dark sidius]

Half a year ago we were already estimating between 280-300 aircraft to be in service. Last year they produced around 70-80 aircraft and this year they'll most likely produce close to 100 by the end and this is not even the most optimistic estimate we have.

Edit: Also, that clickbait video is pure trash and a waste of time, I personally wouldn't consume any media that trashes one thing and then goes on to praise something else without providing substantial proof first.

I think USAF know that.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Dollar bills are useless at air combat and SEAD. According to this China already has 200 J-20s in service, so more than the number of F-22s at present.

That's if that budget isn't spent on something else. In reality, in time the USAF proposes the re-opening of the F-22 production line, plan for it, get congressional approval, design an update programme to reinstate the aircraft systems back to state-of-the-art level, actually produce it and field it, they'll be able to design, manufacture and field a much more crucial and helpful warfighting capability in the Pacific in near term with that exact budget saved by not restarting the F-22 production.

That is also the exact reason the USAF isn't even mentioning a single hint about doing so either. I don't know why you are so pressed about the F-22 but sorry, it really isn't it.

If NGAD is further delayed, it would be much more helpful to increase budget for F-35 block 4 and make LM and NG hire more engineers to fix that damn programme first, start preparing for block 5 already, and resurrect AETP, rather than restarting the F-22 production because updating the F-22 avionics/mission systems to current standards would be a whole new level of difficult task even compared to the block 4.

 

[Explorer121]

I think that DARPA has been going a lot further in their 'spectrum warfare' and 'hyperspectral imaging' research than they've let on. I'm seeing the term percolating throughout the services and there are hints that DARPA is developing some truly game-changing spectrum warfare ideas.

Marine Corps looking to make MQ-9 drones stealthy with special pods

The Marines are trying to make their Reaper drones more difficult to detect by equipping them with a classified, high-tech pod that can counter enemy sensors, according to the service’s top officer.

defensescoop.com

Nanotechnology and Nanomaterials for Camouflage and Stealth Applications

Camouflage and stealth are some of the most important applications in the military industry. Enhancing these applications allows better avoidance of enemy surveillance and unnoticed entry to the enemyâs territory. As the surveillance technologies and sensors have developed over the years, better...

nanografi.com

What is hyperspectral Imaging?: A Comprehensive Guide

www.specim.com

 

[quellish]

The AAF construct is already being leveraged on T-7, MQ-9B, and an additional program and is executable and compliant within the current DAFI 62-601 and new DAFI 63- 101/20-101.

Hmmmm....

 

[FlyGuy369]

On a lighter note, some goodies from today's Boeing haul. I see the three stream boundary injection in the exhaust nozzle. The "flat" area. Enjoy!

 

[litzj]

IDK, it is already known or not.
I found FA-XX 3d printed model in San Diego Air Space Museum's Boeing special exhibition

And we could find possible weapon bay layout

 

[4decaa]

IDK, it is already known or not.
I found FA-XX 3d printed model in San Diego Air Space Museum's Boeing special exhibition

And we could find possible weapon bay layout

View attachment 736301
View attachment 736302

Wouldn't be too controversial to assume it's Su57 style with 2 centerline bays further towards the aft, in addition to f22/j20 style auxiliary bays (2) for short ranged missiles.

Also, that print looks like using a resin-printed color system, so it came out of the printer with camo and panels 'painted' on. Cool beans!

 

[flateric]

IDK, it is already known or not.
I found FA-XX 3d printed model in San Diego Air Space Museum's Boeing special exhibition

One of dropped F/A-XX configurations used for publicity campaign

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/usaf-us-navy-6g-fighter-programs-f-a-xx-f-x-ngad-pca-asfs-news.3536/post-258291

View: https://youtu.be/gCpO6YG-dd8

 

[B2Blain]

Defense and Aerospace Report

Steve Trimble was on this week and discuss the issues with NGAD and CCAs. I thought it was interesting that he mentioned that LM and NG simulations indicated that CCAs would be shot down before they could deliver their effects. I don't think they got shot down after the fifth, sixth, or tenth mission. I think they mean the first? You not only lose the CCA but you also lose whatever munitions they are carrying. The primes are arguing for more robust CCAs in terms of survivability. You could argue that the larger primes have an interest in the AF continuing buying more exquisite manned systems or at least more expensive CCAs. But that scoop should give the AF pause.

The AF hasn't even figured out an operational concept for CCAs yet. How do short ranged CCAs operate with a manned component with longer range? Will it be runway independent or just able to operation from austere runways? Can you support them them logistically within the First Island Chain? Is that a bigger footprint or smaller footprint vs manned aircraft? What's the ROI? If they are a third of the cost of an F-35 it may be a better value to buy more F-35s, especially if you can re engine them with an adaptive cycle engine? You can carry the same amount of AMRAAM classed weapons, but you also get more robust sensors and more versatility. CCA advocates will argue about the higher sustainment cost. But if China can deploy enough 4th and 5th gen manned fighters against our swarm attack we may end up with result similar to Iran's attack against Israel a few months ago. In Ukraine, low cost drones are more of a nuisance than a game changer. The AF is taking a pause on NGAD to make sure what they are doing is correct. May be they should take a pause instead of CCAs, but it really looks like they have fallen in love with a vision without the details really thought out.

 

[TomcatViP]

[,,,] But if China can deploy enough 4th and 5th gen manned fighters against our swarm attack we may end up with result similar to Iran's attack against Israel a few months ago.

I think you are right. There is a risk. Statistically, China would be better positioned to replicate the mass shootdown of drones with their large contingent of non-stealth fighters. Reality could be radically different, however, with CCA operating while a large 5th or 6th Gen manned fleet is achieving local Air Dominance..
Imagine if Iran had F-22 that day, roaming the skies over Jordan. The efficiency of the intercepting force would have been greatly altered, to the point that DCA and survival would have been their priority.

 

[B2Blain]

I think you are right. There is a risk. Statistically, China would be better positioned to replicate the mass shootdown of drones with their large contingent of non-stealth fighters. Reality could be radically different, however, with CCA operating while a large 5th or 6th Gen manned fleet is achieving local Air Dominance..
Imagine if Iran had F-22 that day, roaming the skies over Jordan. The efficiency of the intercepting force would have been greatly altered, to the point that DCA and survival would have been their priority.

I also wonder if comms will be a single point of failure with CCAs. Can CCAs perform as well in a comms degraded environment than a manned fighter? I have no idea.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I also wonder if comms will be a single point of failure with CCAs. Can CCAs perform as well in a comms degraded environment than a manned fighter? I have no idea.

As I understand the CONOPS for CCAs, they're flying almost completely autonomously. The only thing the USAF/USN wants the flight crews in the manned planes to do is tell the CCAs "weapons tight/weapons free" and what formations to use in any dogfights. Basically the CCAs need to have about as much pilot interaction as a JDAM. "Go here, blow something up"

It's actually the NDAG/FAXX that would be hurting in a comms degraded environment, since they wouldn't have as much sensor data coming in from the CCAs.

 

[NMaude]

I thought I'd post this video from Millennium 7* about why stealth technology may have diminishing returns due to advances in sensor technology:

If this is not the proper thread then please tell which thread is and I'll repost it there after deleting this one.

 

[Whopper]

I thought I'd post this video from Millennium 7* about why stealth technology may have diminishing returns due to advances in sensor technology:

If this is not the proper thread then please tell which thread is and I'll repost it there after deleting this one.

The arguments sound awfully similar to the ones I heard years ago. It looks like he took statements from a SAAB representative at face value in addition to fundamentally misunderstanding the entire of point of stealth.

 

[4decaa]

The arguments sound awfully similar to the ones I heard years ago. It looks like he took statements from a SAAB representative at face value in addition to fundamentally misunderstanding the entire of point of stealth.

One might be inclined to wonder what a Lockheed Martin spokesperson might have to say in such an interview

 

[Explorer121]

I thought I'd post this video from Millennium 7* about why stealth technology may have diminishing returns due to advances in sensor technology:

If this is not the proper thread then please tell which thread is and I'll repost it there after deleting this one.

A non-VLO fighter, all else being equal, will almost always lose a BVR engagement with a VLO fighter, with modern radar technology having added the almost. I don't think the clickbait headline should be taken at face value, and I don't think real military planners are obsessing over min-maxing a single tech tree. Rather, the goal has always been to maximize combat capabilities. Stealth, like radar, is just a technology that adds capability to a platform. Some platforms (like ground attack/ BVR) will benefit from it, others (interception/ dogfighting) will require only minimal stealth geometry to avoid return amplification. I personally think the trend of networked systems is more pivotal to newer fighters and will require a look at the IT industry to understand how to leverage its advantages, with things like dispersed mesh networks, real-time data transfer, and EW cybersecurity.

 

[NMaude]

In late June Millennium 7* put out a video about the latest difficulties with the NGAD programme:

The USAF NGAD program is facing unexpected difficulties.Are the NGAD, and the FA-XX, going to happen?

Well I hope the NGAD programme goes through however what I really want to see right now a photographs of the NGAD demonstrator aircraft.

 

[Desertfox]

There is another option... There's a 5.5 Gen fighter being designed specifically for the Pacific theater and closer to production. The GCAP Tempest. Is it as good as NGAD? Probably not, but have Boeing jump in and license build a US version with the F-35 kit. Gets you numbers and is better than F-22/35/15EX, as an interim design while NGAD gets worked out.

 

[quellish]

In late June Millennium 7* put out a video about the latest difficulties with the NGAD programme:

Well I hope the NGAD programme goes through however what I really want to see right now a photographs of the NGAD demonstrator aircraft.

Don't believe every random YouTube video you see.
When you view such videos,you should ask yourself "Is this BS or not?" and "What were the sources for this information?"

 

[NMaude]

Don't believe every random YouTube video you see.
When you view such videos,you should ask yourself "Is this BS or not?" and "What were the sources for this information?"

I have not had any reason to regard this particular YT video poster with any doubt as he seems to be well researched and knows what he talks about, I wouldn't have posted this video in this thread if I had doubts about its veracity.

 

[Basil]

Don't believe every random YouTube video you see.
When you view such videos,you should ask yourself "Is this BS or not?" and "What were the sources for this information?"

Right. However, it seems this guy does good research and he also mentions when he is just guessing. (Btw, I do not know him personally.)

 

[4decaa]

rather have a Millennium 7 video than something from Alex Hollings…

 

[B2Blain]

As I understand the CONOPS for CCAs, they're flying almost completely autonomously. The only thing the USAF/USN wants the flight crews in the manned planes to do is tell the CCAs "weapons tight/weapons free" and what formations to use in any dogfights. Basically the CCAs need to have about as much pilot interaction as a JDAM. "Go here, blow something up"

It's actually the NDAG/FAXX that would be hurting in a comms degraded environment, since they wouldn't have as much sensor data coming in from the CCAs.

In a comms degraded environment it may be like shooting fish in a barrel. I think that's what LM and NG are trying to tell us. CCAs will have limited sensors and be dependent on off board sensors like from NGAD and other manned and unmanned platforms. NGAD and 5th Gen fighters have more a capability to autonomously than CCAs.

 

[Jimmo952]

There is another option... There's a 5.5 Gen fighter being designed specifically for the Pacific theater and closer to production. The GCAP Tempest. Is it as good as NGAD? Probably not, but have Boeing jump in and license build a US version with the F-35 kit. Gets you numbers and is better than F-22/35/15EX, as an interim design while NGAD gets worked out.

What do you mean the F35 kit???

 

[Desertfox]

Avionics, radar, EW etc... Basically stuffing the F-35 into a new longer-ranged airframe. Its an 80% solution, but best to have 80% sooner rather than 0% later.