USAF/US NAVY 6th Generation Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

flateric said:


Interesting shot of "Miss February"; much larger wingspan and broader fuselage than the previous image leads you to believe. Granted its just a concept but it would seem to indicate this jet would be able to carry lots of gas. Large wing area and high sweep angle points to another super cruising design. This tells with recent press report on ADVENT coverage which discuss the 6th gen as a supercruiser.
 
"What will replace the F-15E Strike Eagle?"
by
Dave Majumdar
on December 17, 2012 12:54 AM

Source:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/

The US Air Force hopes to keep its fleet of Boeing F-15E Strike Eagle multirole fighters in service into the 2030s, but it has no definitive plan to eventually replace those aircraft.

The Strike Eagle is arguably the best multirole combat aircraft in the USAF's inventory. No other fighter offers the range, payload or breadth or depth of capability as the F-15E. The Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor was designed to replace the Boeing F-15C, but not the Strike Eagle. The Lockheed F-35, meanwhile, is designed to replace the Fairchild Republic A-10 and Lockheed F-16, but it does not have the range or payload to take on the Strike Eagle's role. At some point, the USAF will have to make a decision on what, if anything, will eventually fill the F-15E's mission space in the 2030s as those airframes inevitably wear out.

Industry sources are confident that a variant of the F-35 could one day replace the F-15E. An extended range version of the F-35 can be built; it's already been studied. It would be particularly helpful if the Air Force Research Laboratory's Adaptive Engine Technology Development (AETD) program pays off with an engine that yields 35% or better fuel efficiency over the Pratt & Whitney F135. The same is true of a two-seat F-35 variant, industry sources say that it can be done--that is, if in fact, two-seats are needed. And there are options to increase the jet's payload.

But analysts are less sure. They say that modifying the F-35 is going to require a lot of effort and it will be costly. The old Lockheed FB-22 concept that was based on the Raptor would have practically required a redesign of the entire aircraft (and there are questions about what kind of range the FB-22 could have yielded--the F-22's Achilles' heel is its range--only slightly better than an F-16). Another example is the Boeing F/A-18E/F, the Super Hornet is for all intents and purposes an entirely new airframe compared to the original A through D-model jets.

There could be a sixth-generation option--the USAF and US Navy have started looking at what an F-X and F/A-XX would look like. Or there could be other options like an unmanned aircraft tethered (line-of-sight data-links, possibly laser-based) to a manned platform such as a Long Range Strike Bomber (LRS-B). That would mitigate some of the comms issues inside an anti-access/area-denial environment.

But any decision would have to be taken by the end of the decade at the very latest--it takes a very long time to develop and field a modern combat aircraft. However, given that there are so many competing resource priorities for the USAF, there must be serious consideration given to simply increasing the number of LRS-Bs to take over some of that mission space. It could be argued that if the LRS-B program were extended from 80-100 aircraft to a production run of 250-300 aircraft, one could recapitalize the entire USAF bomber fleet and forego an F-15E replacement.

There is, of course, a potential wild card. I suppose whatever the USAF is building out at Groom Lake could partially fill the deep interdiction role--if it exists and is designed as a penetrating strike/ISR platform. But as the Lexington Institute's Dan Goure points out, aircraft developed in the black world tend to be extremely high tech and extremely expensive boutique items. So, that's probably not a likely scenario.

In any case, if there is eventually a program to replace the Strike Eagle, it must be built in some numbers. It seems that every time the USAF embarks on a program, far fewer aircraft than expected hit the ramp at the end of the day (or two-and-a-half decades!). If the trend continues, the USAF's fleet of modern frontline combat aircraft will continue to shrink to potentially dangerous low levels, leaving a force of antiquated jets to face off against ever more capable foes.
 
Display at Air Force Association Air Warfare Symposium in Orlando showing Pratt & Whitney's efforts to develop a new variable cycle engine for the Air Force Research Laboratory's Adaptive Engine Technology Development (AETD) program.

Source:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2013/02/afa-air-warfare-symposium-beec.html
 

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Boeing needs to give us some good three view drawings of these designs, instead of the same stuff we've seen before re-purposed. ;)
 
Rhinocrates said:
<q>I think even if you manage to keep the airflow from separating at high AOA and thus starving the ventral intake, you still have to deal with the fact that at high AOA, the ventral intake would be sucking in very low pressure air, thus causing the engine power to drop.</q>
What about the possibility of an advanced auxiliary intake that only opens during high angle of attack flight? Why not? would be a perfect explanation. Or some new form of boundary layer control that forces air into the intake?
 
The Qualitative Advantage: The current budget battles should not stop the Air Force from researching sixth generation fighter capabilities, Gen. Mike Hostage, commander of Air Combat Command, told the Daily Report. "One of the things that sets us apart from any other air force in the world is our qualitative advantage. A lot of that comes from the technical capability that we've sustained," said Hostage during an interview at AFA's Air Warfare Symposium in Orlando, Fla., on Feb. 21. "We can't zero out science and technology." In fact, Hostage said he feels "morally obligated" to consider what he called "F-X," the notional sixth gen fighter. He said, "We need to look at what will replace the F-35, assuming I get to buy them. What will defend the nation from 2030 to 2040?"
 
It could be argued that if the LRS-B program were extended from 80-100 aircraft to a production run of 250-300 aircraft, one could recapitalize the entire USAF bomber fleet and forego an F-15E replacement.
That's the kind of approach that needs to be taken IMHO.

The F-15E was made to be part time Fighter, part time Bomber. I don't think the fighter part got much use so in that respect it was over designed. The F-35 is much closer to a stealthy F-16XL than the F-22 is to stealthy F-15E. And with the F-22 line closed down, the 2nd option is not even on the table.

NGAD should be aiming to fly higher and faster to kinematically evade missiles with high supersonic maneuverability. This will also increase the range of its laser weapon system so that it can target both aircraft from bellow and satellites from above. For air dominance in 20 years to involve information denial as it does now, it has to include anti satellite capability.

Basic physics makes projectile based combat attractive only low in the atmosphere of a planetary body where gravity and lift can be used as advantages.

Flying 1 level above current 5th gen fighters will also enable you to defeat their LO which is optimized for a few degrees up/down from the flying plain. Wings will always have higher RCS from above and bellow.
 
jsport said:
"replace the F-35" the wonders....

Do you think this is unusual? There have been many times in aviation history when follow ons were being planned while an aircraft was still in development.
 
no, am refering to the multiple reasons F-35 needing replacement before it ever enters service.
 
lantinian said:
The F-15E was made to be part time Fighter, part time Bomber. I don't think the fighter part got much use so in that respect it was over designed.

Actually, that was a result of the commanders. I remember reading about the history of the Strike Eagle and I can't recall which coast it was, but there was an East Commander for the F-15E fleet and a West Coast Commander. One of them insisted on his pilots training to use the aircraft in both the A2A and the A2g role and the other insisted on his Strike Eagles only training for A2G. At the time, it wasn't so much doctrinal as it was just the commanders discretion.
 
Sundog said:
Actually, that was a result of the commanders. ..One of them insisted on his pilots training to use the aircraft in both the A2A and the A2g role and the other insisted on his Strike Eagles only training for A2G.
That may well be, but it doesn't change the fact that since the first Gulf War, there was hardly any air targets to shoot at.

On a NGAD note...
The the ATF program got started a few years after the MiG-29, SU-27 were sighted but its goal was not to create an aircraft that can just win again those modes, but against the ones the Russians will develop in the 90s, presumably their own 5th generation. So the F-22 is already good enough to win again the T-50 / J-20 / J-31 when these types become operational even if it may need a few upgrades.

If we follow the same logic, the US should be starting a program right about now to develop a fighter that can win not agains T-50 / J-20 but against there successors.

I expect the key new technologies to be used to be a very efficient variable cycle engine, a laser weapons system an some form of active stealth that relies on computing power and skin antennas
 
sferrin said:
jsport said:
no, am refering to the multiple reasons F-35 needing replacement before it ever enters service.

And what would those be?
Lantinian is doing a great job for this threads title, but would add the code one archive thread also displayed two engine VTOLs have been seriously considered.
 
jsport said:
sferrin said:
jsport said:
no, am refering to the multiple reasons F-35 needing replacement before it ever enters service.

And what would those be?
Lantinian is doing a great job for this threads title, but would add the code one archive thread also displayed two engine VTOLs have been seriously considered.

How about answering the question instead of changing the subject?
 
sferrin said:
jsport said:
sferrin said:
jsport said:
no, am refering to the multiple reasons F-35 needing replacement before it ever enters service.

And what would those be?
Lantinian is doing a great job for this threads title, but would add the code one archive thread also displayed two engine VTOLs have been seriously considered.

How about answering the question instead of changing the subject?

Lets take it here,

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,537.msg178463.html#new

and leave the NGAD thread to be
 
In the early 80s, a few years after the F-15 went operational, USAF started the AFT program and one of the reasons was that the Soviet Union planned to replace its 3rd gen. fighters with the new MiG-29/kU-27.

In the early 2010, a few years after the F-22 went operational, USAF started the NGAD program and one of the reasons was that China planned to replace its 4gen fighters with the new J-31/J-20.

Déjà Vu?

I wonder if the artist impression of the NGAD are as representative of the production fighter as the ATF ones we've seen from Lockheen and Boeing were in the early 80s
 
lantinian said:
In the early 2010, a few years after the F-22 went operational, USAF started the NGAD program...
NGAD is a Navy program to replace the Superbug. Haven't heard anything out of the USAF about replacing the F-22 yet.
 
2IDSGT said:
lantinian said:
In the early 2010, a few years after the F-22 went operational, USAF started the NGAD program...
NGAD is a Navy program to replace the Superbug. Haven't heard anything out of the USAF about replacing the F-22 yet.
You are 100% right. I guess I assumed that USAF would start thinking about replacing the F-22 as soon as they knew what is in the pipeline to counter it. (T-50 / J-XX)

Superbug was sort of an interim solution to air-superiority and strike, so the NAVY was bound to need a new generation of fighter to replace it sooner. I don't think they can afford a new airframe (another Pentagon budget cut yesterday) and the supposed Super Lightning II (F-35+) could be the best answer.

If the F-35 program works, that is a single aircraft with minor variations to serve in all 3 main branches of the military, I do expect the next gen fighter to take this one step further and replace the F-15/F-16 force structure with a single manned aircraft and leave the force multiplier effect to UCAVS
 
Ogami musashi said:
http://dmn.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2012_February_ADP.jpg
Interesting detail is that the shoting date traces back to 2006! Seems to indicate this concept is just pure art or in anycase that the real concept LM submitted is very different.

I don't know about just pure art. The Boeing design seams to have a basic CAD model, which implies those actually configurations were engineered and perhaps studied.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDLas_2Qy-E

It's interesting that you can see the weapons configuration here. 2 side bay each made to house 1 AMRAAM ( or eventually 2x LM CUDAs) and 2 main bays each housing a 4 SBDs or probably a 1000lb JDAM but I am not sure if the 200lb one will fit.
This looks basically like the T-50 weapons placement, although design on the T-50 started in 2007 and this Boing concept is from 2006 so they arrived to a similar design decisions independently.

I wish I could make models of my own designs like that. Handy eh?
 
The Boeing design seams to have a basic CAD model, which implies those actually configurations were engineered and perhaps studied.


Not necessarily.
 
GTX said:
The Boeing design seams to have a basic CAD model, which implies those actually configurations were engineered and perhaps studied.

Not necessarily.

Sure. They just paid an aerospace engineer to CAD design of an aircraft so he can print a 3D model Boeing exec can put on their desks and make a nice youtube video of their 3D printer.
 
Yeah, that link was 100% on topic and I don't remember reading it.

I glued the images on the 1st and 2nd page as they make for a nice illustration ;)

6thGenFighter.jpg
 
lantinian said:
GTX said:
The Boeing design seams to have a basic CAD model, which implies those actually configurations were engineered and perhaps studied.

Not necessarily.

Sure. They just paid an aerospace engineer to CAD design of an aircraft so he can print a 3D model Boeing exec can put on their desks and make a nice youtube video of their 3D printer.


It is nothing to do some drawings even CAD ones but something altogether different to do serious engineering/design for it.
 
А few quotes I liked from this Article.

What kinds of fighters will potential adversaries be fielding in the next 20 years?
Now we pretty much know.

By 2030, according to internal USAF analyses, the service could be as many as 971 aircraft short of its minimum required inventory of 2,250 fighters. That as sumes that all planned F-35s are built and delivered on time and at a rate of at least 48 per year.
I guess they will be able to compensate with drones for that. Its not as if fighters are the aircraft currently searching for and attacking terrorist suspects.

, if Russia and China build their fifth generation fighters in large numbers, the US would be at a clear airpower disadvantage in the middle of the 2020s.
The way the Chinese and US economy are going, it looks number of fighters won't be the biggest US concern in 2025.

Privately, senior leaders have said they have been waiting to see how the F-22 and F-35 issues sorted out before establishing a
structured program for a next generation fighter
We are in for a wait then.

because you can do things at different wavelengths of light, you can move lots of data around airplanes much faster, with much less weight in terms of ... wire bundles.”
Single fiber optic cable instead of multiple copper cables? Nice.

“Speed of light” weapons, he added, could “negate” the importance of “the maneuverability we see in today’s fashionable fighters.” There won’t be time to maneuver away from a directed energy attack.
The T-50 LEVCONS don't look so cool now and the Cobra maneuver does look less....fashionable, doesn't it?

hypersonics “will start to show up in sixth generation,” but not initially as the platform’s power plant, but rather in the aircraft’s kinetic munitions.
It will be interesting to learn what range would such weapons have. I remember reading a study showing the AIM-120A to have a range of 120 miles when launched from Mach 3.2
 
That notional 6th generation looks hypersonic (I know it means nothing-just a placeholder) maybe the trend will be away from maneuverability and more towards speed and fuel carriage and the use a primary energy weapon, supplemented w/ high speed missiles and bombs.

A chubby, hypersonic fuel carrying shape? Or maybe that is for the 7th Gen?
 
kcran567 said:
That notional 6th generation looks hypersonic (I know it means nothing-just a placeholder) maybe the trend will be away from maneuverability and more towards speed and fuel carriage and the use a primary energy weapon, supplemented w/ high speed missiles and bombs.

A chubby, hypersonic fuel carrying shape? Or maybe that is for the 7th Gen?

Don't know if hypersonic is feasible (I'm not smart enough) but the next leap to the 6th Gen IMHO will be lasers, at least for self defense. I will try and find the source but I remember reading about someone on the ground tracking a fighter plane with a laser pointer (it was supposedly known and approved he was doing it) with the Mark 1 eyeball targeting system. Speed of light is truly a game changer. Time of flight in all combat distances (notwithstanding laser power requirements) is 0.00 seconds for all practical purposes.
 
Another quote from the article about the hypersonic capability
While there have been some successes with experimental hypersonic propulsion, the total amount of true hypersonic flying time is less than 15 minutes, and the leap to an operational fighter in 20 years might be a leap too far

I don't think they tested stealth for 15 min before putting heavily it into the ATF requirements in 1985. I think they had the F-117 operational for 2 years.
 
5 or 10 minutes total of hypersonic flying time capability would be better than anything else flying today. Even a sprint capability.
 
bobbymike said:
kcran567 said:
That notional 6th generation looks hypersonic (I know it means nothing-just a placeholder) maybe the trend will be away from maneuverability and more towards speed and fuel carriage and the use a primary energy weapon, supplemented w/ high speed missiles and bombs.

A chubby, hypersonic fuel carrying shape? Or maybe that is for the 7th Gen?

Don't know if hypersonic is feasible (I'm not smart enough) but the next leap to the 6th Gen IMHO will be lasers, at least for self defense. I will try and find the source but I remember reading about someone on the ground tracking a fighter plane with a laser pointer (it was supposedly known and approved he was doing it) with the Mark 1 eyeball targeting system. Speed of light is truly a game changer. Time of flight in all combat distances (notwithstanding laser power requirements) is 0.00 seconds for all practical purposes.


Imagine how useful and multipurpose it would be: anti aircraft, anti missile, anti ballistic missile...
 
On the next gen TACAIR paper there is a capacity anti balistique missile for this plane planning
 
lantinian said:
GTX said:
The Boeing design seams to have a basic CAD model, which implies those actually configurations were engineered and perhaps studied.

Not necessarily.

Sure. They just paid an aerospace engineer to CAD design of an aircraft so he can print a 3D model Boeing exec can put on their desks and make a nice youtube video of their 3D printer.

Speaking as an engineer who has done just that (minus the youtube part), I could certainly believe it.
 
Speaking as an engineer who has done just that (minus the youtube part), I could certainly believe it.
Cool. So which part do you believe? That they made the model as part of a 6 Genfighter configuration study and the 3D printer was just the latest tool to visualise the design? Or that it was a more to demonstrate their 3D printer and the engineer who made the CAD model, designed it solely for that purpose?
 
Maybe after all this concept from LM is not so pure; Here is a 2013 patent from LM for a inside nozzle thrust vectoring system. F-23 style again!


http://www.freepatentsonline.com/8371104.pdf
 

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kcran567 said:
bobbymike said:
kcran567 said:
That notional 6th generation looks hypersonic (I know it means nothing-just a placeholder) maybe the trend will be away from maneuverability and more towards speed and fuel carriage and the use a primary energy weapon, supplemented w/ high speed missiles and bombs.

A chubby, hypersonic fuel carrying shape? Or maybe that is for the 7th Gen?

Don't know if hypersonic is feasible (I'm not smart enough) but the next leap to the 6th Gen IMHO will be lasers, at least for self defense. I will try and find the source but I remember reading about someone on the ground tracking a fighter plane with a laser pointer (it was supposedly known and approved he was doing it) with the Mark 1 eyeball targeting system. Speed of light is truly a game changer. Time of flight in all combat distances (notwithstanding laser power requirements) is 0.00 seconds for all practical purposes.


Imagine how useful and multipurpose it would be: anti aircraft, anti missile, anti ballistic missile...

Agree a hypersonic dash speed to or from the target would be great but all the above can be accomplished by lasers at 186,000 miles per second. What's that like Mach a million ;D

The future will be hypersonic for attack lasers for defense because attack will require ranges in the hundreds of KM and lasers will not be powerful enough to do that for who knows how long. We will still need to put 'steel on target'
 

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