While spectacular the F-12B wasn’t really a practical proposition for a day-to-day air defence role.
While, say, a tailored F-14 might have suited the real-role better the US ended up doing relatively OK given the actually relatively limited threat of Russian bombers to the continental US until the emergence of Bear-H’s and Blackjacks much later in late 70’s and the 80’s.

The F-12B was intended to intercept long range supersonic air launched missiles as much as it was supersonic bombers. Full deployment of the 216 operational F-12s was planned for FY73, the Soviets first flew a Tu-95K-22 in October 1975. USAF ADC's timing may have been ahead of the threat but not by much.

My understanding is that the Tu-95K-22 ran much later in terms of actual missile firings and in achieving operational capacity (both only achieved well into the 80’s) and was effectively overtaken in priority and any potential intended importance by the maritime Tu-142s and the Bear-H.
And (perhaps wrongly) I had understood that the Bear-G was both intended for and seen in more a long range anti-ship maritime role rather than targeting the continental US (hence more a concern for Navy Tomcats rather than primarily for USAF fighters, of what ever identity, of that time).
 
GTX said:
Does anyone know I'd the F-14IMI proposal proposed a change from probe to boom refueling given the USAF connection?


Further to my earlier question, I was recently made aware that one Iranian F-14A (BuNo 170378) was kept within the USA for use as a testbed. Part of this was the supposed conversion to use boom style refuelling (see here for one reference to it). Does anyone have any more details, especially as to the location of the refuelling receptacle?
Assuming they wanted to do a minimum change to replace the probe with the boom receptacle, I would expect the receptacle to be on the starboard side just forward of the canopy. That position would allow it to be plumbed into the existing lines for the probe with a minimum of difficulty. Looking at a cutaway of the F-14, that definitely looks to be by far the easiest way to replace the probe with a boom receptacle.
 
(see here for one reference to it).

Unfortunately, that link seems to be dead, it's giving me an error.

It's a link to Tom Cooper's Osprey book Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units on Combat. This link might work for now. It really doesn't say anything beyond GTX's post, except the BuNo was 160378 (an easy typo; not sure whose). This unit eventually became a test and evaluation aircraft for the USN.

I suspect a boom IFR adaptation of the F-14 was pretty low priority, since the IIRAF had largely solved the issue in the other direction, by putting hose-and-drogue pods on most or all of their 707 tankers.
 
Any details on the F-111 with nine missiles? The F-111B would have carried 6 Phoenix. What was this other F-111 to carry?

After Wiki the F-111 had 9 hard point for weapons: 4 under wings and one under Fuselage.
could be misinformation...
 
There are the 8 on the wings (4 not really useable for much as they don't swivel) and small centerline towards the back. It carried things on the centerline so rarely I didn't even think it had one until I stumbled onto this picture.

unnamed.jpg
 
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ECM pods were often carried on the centerline pylon.
 
Actually managed to find an official ADC history that offers a fair bit of detail on the IMI:


Crucially, the Improved Manned Interceptor doesn't seem to have been a defined programme in the same way as (say) TFX or LWF, with a formal requirement leading to submission of tenders. Instead, it sounds like a generic description for the F-106A replacement.

Initially, as far as the USAF was concerned, the F-12 was the IMI, until a combination of changing requirements and McNamara threw doubt on the programme between 1965 and 1967. It was initially replaced by the F-106X in planning, which as well as being cheaper was seen as more effective at handling low-flying subsonic targets – OSD recognised that the F-12 would be more effective at defending against high-altitude subsonic bombers, but the Soviet Union wasn't developing any so the question was academic. The USAF did propose a mixed force to hedge their bets against a mixed force, but this went nowhere.

Interestingly, the IMI was seen as one of three systems that would modernise ADC. It would be the weapon, to be alerted by OTH-B radars and controlled by AWACS – of which ADC wanted 42 of the initially planned 64.

By 1970, the F-106X was being seen as an outdated proposal, the can of the IMI requirement having been kicked down the road for a few more years. The USAF directed that an F-15Y be considered, which was to have nuclear rockets or advanced conventional missiles and a highly capable fire control system. By August 1971, some 194 F-15Ys were seen as required.

In April 1971, however, OSD had encouraged manufacturers to prepare their own proposals for the IMI requirement. As well as the McDonnell Douglas F-15Y, there was:
  • Convair (presumably General Dynamics) with the F-111X-7, quoted at $23 million per aircraft.
  • Ling-Temco-Vought with the Quick Reaction Interceptor
  • North American’s NR-349
  • Grumman's F-14, which had been favourably mentioned in Congress as early as June 1969 as an alternative to the F-106X or F-12.

ADC hoped that at least one would proceed to a prototype, but little progress was made until December 1971 when the USAF Vice Chief of Staff directed that ADC confer with the F-15 programme director to define requirements for the F-15 interceptor. This took until February 1972, when the following were agreed as needed for the initial F-15Y:
  1. Additional fuel pallets for increased range
  2. Six AIM-47C air-to-air missiles
  3. An infrared search and track system to detect air-to-surface missiles launched by hostile bombers and to give the aircraft radar a cue as to where to look
  4. Two-way data link to permit use in conjunction with AWACS
  5. Beyond-line-of-sight communications to permit long-range surveillance in collaboration with AWACS and OTH-B
  6. A pulse-doppler radar of increased range through use of a travelling wave tube of increased power (presumably compared to the F-15A's APG-63)
  7. An extension of target velocity detection capability to include targets moving as fast as Mach 4 in order to deal with hostile ASMs.
  8. Improved electronic counter-countermeasures features to prevent noise jamming, to which the pulse-doppler radar was particularly susceptible
  9. Modification of the Integrated Store Monitor and Management Set to accommodate interceptor armament which could consist of either six AIM-47C or four AIM-9 missiles.
  10. Deletion of tactical electronic warfare systems because they would not be used for CONUS defence.
Of these, ADC saw only the additional fuel pallets and the data link as absolutely essential. Nonetheless, they had a 'wish list' over and above the basic requirements, in order to counter probable developments after 1980:
  1. Improvements in the radar to permit it to track six targets simultaneously
  2. Capability to launch missiles against two targets at the same time
  3. Ability to detect non-cooperative IFF responses at the furthest possible range
  4. An additional vertical situation display to avoid the saturation or misinterpretation of information displayed.
  5. Inclusion of two fully equipped cockpits to permit use of a two-man crew.
  6. Additional fuel.
  7. Addition of a tactical situation display to improve the surveillance augmentation function and permit largely autonomous function when necessary.
  8. Improve the environmental control system within the aircraft to accommodate the added systems and the two-man crew.

This, obviously, is getting into a very significant modification, and a lot of the changes needed to the F-15 would have added capabilities that already existed in the F-14. By mid-1972, though, it seems that any thought that the new interceptor might be anything other than an F-15 with more or less modification was dead. The only debate was when - the ADC wanted them in FY 1976, the USAF was planning on FY 1978. I'm not sure if the F-15s that ADC eventually got had any modifications compared to the standard model, but some kind of F-15 was definitely seen as filling the requirement of the F-106 replacement since 1970-1971, after an awkward void of a few years after the F-12 was cancelled.
 
Modification of the Integrated Store Monitor and Management Set to accommodate interceptor armament which could consist of either six AIM-47C or four AIM-9 missiles.
Following up on my own post....

Back in 2008, Overscan posted a photo of an F-15 'Advanced Interceptor' loadout with six large AAMs and four Sidewinders:


Notably, the large missiles look rather more slender than an AIM-56, but about right for an AIM-47. In addition, FAST packs are fitted. I wonder if this model has roots in the F-15Y requirement.
 
Let me opine on a number of topics in this thread, not necessarily in the order in which they occurred.

The Missileer was not that bizarre a concept (a pic is attached), but it was only viable, given the large number of available carriers the USN had at its disposal in the late '50s and early '60s, because the only thing it could do was loiter for a long time and throw missiles at incoming bombers. It could not perform the fighter mission (F-4s and F-8s were to do that). Interestingly, the Missileer mission was what McNamara's F-111B was supposed to perform, which he decided could be performed by the same design that would do USAF's low level supersonic strike mission.

Regarding AIM-54, remember its function was expanded from that of the Eagle missiles the Missileer was armed with. In addition to bombers, AIM-54 had to be able to knock down cruise missiles, subsonic and supersonic, high or on the deck. Cruise missiles were fighter sized or smaller. They also were to be used against fighters at extremely long range. While Phoenix was not a dogfight missile by any means, it still could pull more gs than any manned fighter. It's turn radius was a function of its great speed, but large turns would be made enroute not at the very end. That speed was a significant factor in its own rite. AIM-54 was the fastest missile to enter service in the West (probably the world for many years). Given where it normally would be firing from, the target wouldn't even know it was coming until AIM-54s (very large) warhead went off alongside. Also, even if the target happened to be aware, given the speed with which it was coming, there wouldn't be that much time to try evasion. Don't forget AIM-54 would be using terminal homing at the endgame, it was the first radar missile that could effectively do this. That's why the Iranians lost so many aircraft to it (arguably the ACIG.org numbers are low).

AIM-54 would not be the weapon of choice in a close-in dogfight, but normally by the time the adversaries had closed, the Phoenixes would already have been launched. Also, two AIM-54s don't anchor the Tomcat as much as you'd think (but four have a dramatic effect, even carried conformally). The analogy many lightweight fighter advocates like to use of carrying a rifle to a knife fight in a phone both is particularly apt. However, that analogy also begs the question: If you have a rifle, why get in a phone booth with a guy who's got a knife? Shoot him from across the street! As an aside, the close-in dogfight is probably the least effective way to kill lots of enemy aircraft, but sometime you just gotta deal with it.

Regarding the F-4 carrying Phoenix. Yes, it would be theoretically possible for an improved F-4 to carry a pair, but as far as being effective, that's another story. First you'd have to repackage the AWG-9 to fit in the space available in a radically redesigned F-4 fuselage. You'd have to change the whole nose to accomodate the larger antenna, and find some way for the F-4 to generate enough electricity to run the whole thing. Of course, with the dramatic cg change and the requirement to get back aboard the carrier, that's more redesign (problems it would generate when coming back aboard the boat is one of the reasons the Navy made the correct decision not to put a gun in later models of its F-4s). Naturally all this means more weight, which requires a redesign of the wing. But then, you'd have to redesign the wing and internals anyway since the AIM-54A (which was the version at the time) required cooling oil to be pumped from the aircraft (later versions didn't) so you'd have to put that system in. More weight, more wing. A lot of extra fuel would have to be carried to try and meet the range and loiter requirements (which it probably wouldn't). Problem here, is the larger engines needed to lift all this (another extensive redesign) might want some of that fuel themselves.

Not of this even addresses the air superiority or strike missions. At the end, you'd have an aircraft that would cost far more and be less capable than a clean sheet of paper design (one of the reasons the F3H Demon wasn't improved into the F4H Phantom). In short, the F-4 was a magnificent aircraft, to my mind the greatest all-around fighter design ever. But, even it had its limits. There was no way it could be modified into anything even approaching what the F-14 was designed for (and probably this Super F-4 would have been supplied with inadequate engines by the Government, same as the F-14 was).

The F-14 would have made a superb interceptor for USAF, better than anything else they would have been able to field. It would actually have been easier than the Navy mission since the aircraft wouldn't have to handle air superiority or strike, USAF had other aircraft for that, and wouldn't have to be carrier capable. Realistically, though, no way was USAF going to buy another Navy plane and in any case, they had abandoned the interceptor mission after the IMI debacle.

Regarding Super Hornet carrying Phoenix and/or defending the CVBG, when USN lost A/FX and AIM-152 (other forums) and it was apparent that the Hornet E/F was going to be it as far as Navy fighter capability went, that job was turned over to the AEGIS cruisers.
In my opinion a mix of missileers and phantoms would have been formidable.
 
sferrin said:
Pioneer said:
USAF ‘Improved Manned Interceptor’ (IMI) Program


On 9 February 1968, the Defence Department announced they were not going to purchase the Lockheed F-12A interceptor (later the SR-71), opting instead to remain with the F-106 as the primary interceptor to protect the continental USA from air attack.
The USAF's Improved Manned Interceptor program, which was an attempt to find a replacement for the Convair F-106 Delta Dart.




North American/Rockwell NR-349
Grumman (F-14 IMI)
Convair (F-106E/F)

Does anyone have any art work, drawing, and specifications for these three proposals
And was there others?
The North American/Rockwell NR-349 looks very interesting with its three General Electric J79 turbojets, although a two Pratt & Whitney F100 turbofan arrangement would had been better and more efficient engine arrangement (I think).
I also think the semi-recessed arrangement for its six Phoenix AAM’s would also be very efficient.
–Some say it could have been America’s equivalent to the Soviet
MiG-25 Foxbat

Regards
Pioneer

I think the F-106E/F was slightly before IMI. It was proposed in '68 where IMI wasn't until '71 or so. For the Vigilante (NR-349) the 3 J79s would have put out much more power than a pair of F100s especially at high speed and altitude. However there WAS a version of the Vigilante kicked around with a pair of J58s. Sombody here posted a couple of excellent pictures of the NR-349 on the Key Publishing forum (ironically I even suggested they might want to post them here :) ) I think it might have been Martje? Anyway here they are. . . As far as it being a Foxbat equivalent none of these were designed for high heat so Mach 2.8 would have been iffy. The F-12B and F-108 would have easily been up to the task though.

The Improved Manned Interceptor program was a program of the mid 1960s to replace the F-106.
So can we assertain the actual time frame in which North American Aviation developed their 'Retaliator' design?

Regards
Pioneer
 
sferrin said:
Pioneer said:
USAF ‘Improved Manned Interceptor’ (IMI) Program


On 9 February 1968, the Defence Department announced they were not going to purchase the Lockheed F-12A interceptor (later the SR-71), opting instead to remain with the F-106 as the primary interceptor to protect the continental USA from air attack.
The USAF's Improved Manned Interceptor program, which was an attempt to find a replacement for the Convair F-106 Delta Dart.




North American/Rockwell NR-349
Grumman (F-14 IMI)
Convair (F-106E/F)

Does anyone have any art work, drawing, and specifications for these three proposals
And was there others?
The North American/Rockwell NR-349 looks very interesting with its three General Electric J79 turbojets, although a two Pratt & Whitney F100 turbofan arrangement would had been better and more efficient engine arrangement (I think).
I also think the semi-recessed arrangement for its six Phoenix AAM’s would also be very efficient.
–Some say it could have been America’s equivalent to the Soviet
MiG-25 Foxbat

Regards
Pioneer

I think the F-106E/F was slightly before IMI. It was proposed in '68 where IMI wasn't until '71 or so. For the Vigilante (NR-349) the 3 J79s would have put out much more power than a pair of F100s especially at high speed and altitude. However there WAS a version of the Vigilante kicked around with a pair of J58s. Sombody here posted a couple of excellent pictures of the NR-349 on the Key Publishing forum (ironically I even suggested they might want to post them here :) ) I think it might have been Martje? Anyway here they are. . . As far as it being a Foxbat equivalent none of these were designed for high heat so Mach 2.8 would have been iffy. The F-12B and F-108 would have easily been up to the task though.

The Improved Manned Interceptor program was a program of the mid 1960s to replace the F-106.
So can we assertain the actual time frame in which North American Aviation developed their 'Retaliator' design?

Regards
Pioneer
Ok, think I've found the answer to my own question - c.1959

Regards
Pioneer
 
.

Regarding the F-4 carrying Phoenix. Yes, it would be theoretically possible for an improved F-4 to carry a pair, but as far as being effective, that's another story. First you'd have to repackage the AWG-9 to fit in the space available in a radically redesigned F-4 fuselage. You'd have to change the whole nose to accomodate the larger antenna, and find some way for the F-4 to generate enough electricity to run the whole thing. Of course, with the dramatic cg change and the requirement to get back aboard the carrier, that's more redesign (problems it would generate when coming back aboard the boat is one of the reasons the Navy made the correct decision not to put a gun in later models of its F-4s). Naturally all this means more weight, which requires a redesign of the wing. But then, you'd have to redesign the wing and internals anyway since the AIM-54A (which was the version at the time) required cooling oil to be pumped from the aircraft (later versions didn't) so you'd have to put that system in. More weight, more wing. A lot of extra fuel would have to be carried to try and meet the range and loiter requirements (which it probably wouldn't). Problem here, is the larger engines needed to lift all this (another extensive redesign) might want some of that fuel themselves.
Re visiting and reading old posts....

F-14D, given in your analogy that that the USN was willing to compromise on giving up on the Douglas F6D Missileer for a "F-4 carrying Phoenix", I'm thinking they'd realistically compromise on a smaller radar antenna for the AWG-9, so as to be realistic about the size of the nose/radome of this 'Super Phantom'.
As for powerplant, I'd think the Phantom design would be modified to take the P&W F401-PW-400, although come to think of it, would the F401 been developed at all without the F-14 being developed?

As for the range issue of the "F-4 carrying Phoenix", I'm wondering if something remanicent of Boeing's Enhanced Phantom under fuselage 'conformal fuel tank' configuration containing two semi-conformal Aim-54's, as well as fuel might have been derived earlier.....Saying this, it shouldn't be overlooked that "In the 1960s and 70s the Douglas Aircraft Company, a part of McDonnell Douglas Corporation, maintained a program of airborne weapons research and development known as the Advanced Armament Technology Program". Which in itself researched and developed their own conformal weapons carrying configuration - "In November of 1967 Douglas performed a study for the US Navy in which they first established the aerodynamic gains associated with conformal carriage of weapons."
(Source: https://phantomphacts.blogspot.com/2017/11/?m=1)



Just a thought....

Regards
Pioneer
 

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I've never seen the F-12's as valid interceptors. Yes, they were fast, but the preflight takes so damn long it was almost an oxymoron. "Hey can you guys hold up until we're ready to take off?" The F-108 would have been a much more valid interceptor, if it actually worked. Since it would have been built like the XB-70, I'm not sure about that either. The F-106X probably would have been perfectly fine.
It sould be noted that the F-12B were going to be actual production models (the ones actually biult were all basically hand biult prototypes) with a much sorter preflight operation and much titer tolerances (leading to less oil leaks and lower matanince cost)
 
With the pivot to the Pacific, large, dedicated interceptors may be looked at again.
It's a tough one. The Blackbird had the speed and range but endurance wasn't so hot without tankers. Something more like the XF-108 might be better. (A fighter version of the FB-23 would be perfect.)
 
It's a tough one. The Blackbird had the speed and range but endurance wasn't so hot without tankers. Something more like the XF-108 might be better. (A fighter version of the FB-23 would be perfect.)
Question: should the interceptor be manned at all?
The manned interceptor has a pilot with the mark-1 eyeball sensor, and a processor capable of flying the bird, and lateral thinking to react to unexpected circumstances. Should contact be lost with base, the pilot can do what circumstances require.

An unmanned interceptor is essentially a missile with detachable, maneuvering warheads, and either requires guidance, or sophisticated algorithms to control intercept. It cannot react to unexpected circumstances. It is more limited.

Looking at history, the interceptor missile, Bomarc, was retired without replacement in 1972, the F-106 interceptor continued until 1988.

That’s not to say that a change in strategic circumstances might not change the favourability to the missile - who knows what the future might hold?
 
It's a tough one. The Blackbird had the speed and range but endurance wasn't so hot without tankers. Something more like the XF-108 might be better. (A fighter version of the FB-23 would be perfect.)
Question: should the interceptor be manned at all?
The manned interceptor has a pilot with the mark-1 eyeball sensor, and a processor capable of flying the bird, and lateral thinking to react to unexpected circumstances. Should contact be lost with base, the pilot can do what circumstances require.

An unmanned interceptor is essentially a missile with detachable, maneuvering warheads, and either requires guidance, or sophisticated algorithms to control intercept. It cannot react to unexpected circumstances. It is more limited.

Looking at history, the interceptor missile, Bomarc, was retired without replacement in 1972, the F-106 interceptor continued until 1988.

That’s not to say that a change in strategic circumstances might not change the favourability to the missile - who knows what the future might hold?
BOMARC was a SAM like Patriot, S-300, etc. It just had longer range. All continental US SAMs were retired. There was nothing unique about BOMARC that demanded it's retirement.
 
It sould be noted that the F-12B were going to be actual production models (the ones actually biult were all basically hand biult prototypes) with a much sorter preflight operation and much titer tolerances (leading to less oil leaks and lower matanince cost)

That doesn't change the fact that the pilots needed to be in full pressure suits and the oil needed to be melted down, since it's a solid at room temperature, at least 1/2 hour before pouring it into the engines. The Blackbird was never going to make sense as a QRA aircraft.
 
It sould be noted that the F-12B were going to be actual production models (the ones actually biult were all basically hand biult prototypes) with a much sorter preflight operation and much titer tolerances (leading to less oil leaks and lower matanince cost)

That doesn't change the fact that the pilots needed to be in full pressure suits and the oil needed to be melted down, since it's a solid at room temperature, at least 1/2 hour before pouring it into the engines. The Blackbird was never going to make sense as a QRA aircraft.
XF-108 would not have had those problems. It was designed for the interceptor role. Where the Blackbird was designed for recon at the outset it could accept limitations that an aircraft that had to loiter/scramble couldn't. And then they tried to make an interceptor out of it. Though they did have plans to reduce reaction time.
 
With the pivot to the Pacific, large, dedicated interceptors may be looked at again.
Intercepting what, exactly? The Chinese presumably aren't going to oblige us by sending fleets of bombers out into the Pacific willy nilly.
 
It sould be noted that the F-12B were going to be actual production models (the ones actually biult were all basically hand biult prototypes) with a much sorter preflight operation and much titer tolerances (leading to less oil leaks and lower matanince cost)

That doesn't change the fact that the pilots needed to be in full pressure suits and the oil needed to be melted down, since it's a solid at room temperature, at least 1/2 hour before pouring it into the engines. The Blackbird was never going to make sense as a QRA aircraft.
I have never heard about the blackbirds oil being melted down, way would that even be a thing? And a pressure sure wasn't a very big deal, not like the g sutes the air force wore back then were much better.
 
BOMARC was a SAM like Patriot, S-300, etc. It just had longer range.
Well, not exactly. Bomarc was designed to much greater autonomy than usual SAM. Initially, it was even supposed to be multi-use, armed with AAM's and provided with landing skids.
 
.

Regarding the F-4 carrying Phoenix. Yes, it would be theoretically possible for an improved F-4 to carry a pair, but as far as being effective, that's another story. First you'd have to repackage the AWG-9 to fit in the space available in a radically redesigned F-4 fuselage. You'd have to change the whole nose to accomodate the larger antenna, and find some way for the F-4 to generate enough electricity to run the whole thing. Of course, with the dramatic cg change and the requirement to get back aboard the carrier, that's more redesign (problems it would generate when coming back aboard the boat is one of the reasons the Navy made the correct decision not to put a gun in later models of its F-4s). Naturally all this means more weight, which requires a redesign of the wing. But then, you'd have to redesign the wing and internals anyway since the AIM-54A (which was the version at the time) required cooling oil to be pumped from the aircraft (later versions didn't) so you'd have to put that system in. More weight, more wing. A lot of extra fuel would have to be carried to try and meet the range and loiter requirements (which it probably wouldn't). Problem here, is the larger engines needed to lift all this (another extensive redesign) might want some of that fuel themselves.
Re visiting and reading old posts....

F-14D, given in your analogy that that the USN was willing to compromise on giving up on the Douglas F6D Missileer for a "F-4 carrying Phoenix", I'm thinking they'd realistically compromise on a smaller radar antenna for the AWG-9, so as to be realistic about the size of the nose/radome of this 'Super Phantom'.
As for powerplant, I'd think the Phantom design would be modified to take the P&W F401-PW-400, although come to think of it, would the F401 been developed at all without the F-14 being developed?

As for the range issue of the "F-4 carrying Phoenix", I'm wondering if something remanicent of Boeing's Enhanced Phantom under fuselage 'conformal fuel tank' configuration containing two semi-conformal Aim-54's, as well as fuel might have been derived earlier.....Saying this, it shouldn't be overlooked that "In the 1960s and 70s the Douglas Aircraft Company, a part of McDonnell Douglas Corporation, maintained a program of airborne weapons research and development known as the Advanced Armament Technology Program". Which in itself researched and developed their own conformal weapons carrying configuration - "In November of 1967 Douglas performed a study for the US Navy in which they first established the aerodynamic gains associated with conformal carriage of weapons."
(Source: https://phantomphacts.blogspot.com/2017/11/?m=1)



Just a thought....

Regards
Pioneer
Wonder where the nose gear would be on the Enhanced Phantoms given the conformal tank occupying the jet's entire centerline?
 
Wonder where the nose gear would be on the Enhanced Phantoms given the conformal tank occupying the jet's entire centerline?
Same place. There was a notch in the conformal fuel tank around the Nose Landing Gear.
 
With the pivot to the Pacific, large, dedicated interceptors may be looked at again.
Intercepting what, exactly? The Chinese presumably aren't going to oblige us by sending fleets of bombers out into the Pacific willy nilly.
Any aircraft that might get airborne over the Pacific. Bombers are only one type.
 
Wonder where the nose gear would be on the Enhanced Phantoms given the conformal tank occupying the jet's entire centerline?
Same place. There was a notch in the conformal fuel tank around the Nose Landing Gear.
Ah, ok then. Since there's the notch, I guess the Vulcan gun was located farther back in the forward fairing of the conformal fuel tank.
 
JoeinTX said:
All I'm really saying here is this:

-The AIM-54 Phoenix was a long-ranged weapon.....but it had limited change of course ability. It was an anti-large, longe range bomber weapon......not a long-ranged air superiority missile. Against a Tu-16/-20/Myaischev-20 it was fine. Against an Su-17 or Tu-26 or even a MiG-21 toting the right load it was not able to adjust to any of the potential speed/altitude/manuever changes that might occur in order to launch an attack. For unsuspecting formations of gangly aircraft en masse without cover......it would have been a wonderful weapon.

For things like those we see in the "Top Gun" movie..........it was dead, useless weight.

While granting that the Iraqi Air Force wasn't anywhere near the best in the world, the combat results of the Iran-Iraq War don't seem to bear out your assertion. ACIG.org records the following kills by AIM-54: 6 MiG-21MF, 1 MiG-21RF, 1 MiG-21, 1 MiG-21bis, 2 MiG-23MLA, 1 MiG-23ML, 5 MiG-23BN, 5 MiG-23MF, 7 MiG-25RB, 1 MiG-25PD, 2 MiG-25BM, 1 MiG-25 RBS, 2 MiG-27, 4 Tu-22B, 1 Su-20M, 5 Su-22M, 9 Mirage F.1, 1 Super Etendard, 1 SA.321GV, 1 B-60?, 1 C.601, two classified as MiG-21 or Su-20, and two unknown whether MiG or Su. ACIG obviously might be wrong but unless they managed to get massively hoodwinked, I think it shows that the AIM-54 was quite capable against more maneuverable opponents. From what I recall reading, the dogfight mode of an AIM-54 was ~20 miles which would make it preferable over an AIM-7 before the actual dogfight began (the much larger weight being a penalty in a dogfight).

I do talk in hindsight now, fine, but improved versions of the Phantom could have carried pairs of Phoenix-es and defended U.S. carrier groups fine throughout the remainder of the Cold War with little worry.

Would only a pair of AIM-54 per Phantom have been enough to protect a CVBG during a full scale Russian attack however?
Very interesting stats thank you Rosdivan.

Regards
Pioneer
 
Pioneer said:
USAF ‘Improved Manned Interceptor’ (IMI) Program


On 9 February 1968, the Defence Department announced they were not going to purchase the Lockheed F-12A interceptor (later the SR-71), opting instead to remain with the F-106 as the primary interceptor to protect the continental USA from air attack.
The USAF's Improved Manned Interceptor program, which was an attempt to find a replacement for the Convair F-106 Delta Dart.




North American/Rockwell NR-349
Grumman (F-14 IMI)
Convair (F-106E/F)

Does anyone have any art work, drawing, and specifications for these three proposals
And was there others?
The North American/Rockwell NR-349 looks very interesting with its three General Electric J79 turbojets, although a two Pratt & Whitney F100 turbofan arrangement would had been better and more efficient engine arrangement (I think).
I also think the semi-recessed arrangement for its six Phoenix AAM’s would also be very efficient.
–Some say it could have been America’s equivalent to the Soviet
MiG-25 Foxbat

Regards
Pioneer

I think the F-106E/F was slightly before IMI. It was proposed in '68 where IMI wasn't until '71 or so. For the Vigilante (NR-349) the 3 J79s would have put out much more power than a pair of F100s especially at high speed and altitude. However there WAS a version of the Vigilante kicked around with a pair of J58s. Sombody here posted a couple of excellent pictures of the NR-349 on the Key Publishing forum (ironically I even suggested they might want to post them here :) ) I think it might have been Martje? Anyway here they are. . . As far as it being a Foxbat equivalent none of these were designed for high heat so Mach 2.8 would have been iffy. The F-12B and F-108 would have easily been up to the task though.
Would the NR-349 have a gun? I know that it's not too likely given its role as an interceptor, but I'd just like to know if that could be possible.
 
Pioneer said:
USAF ‘Improved Manned Interceptor’ (IMI) Program


On 9 February 1968, the Defence Department announced they were not going to purchase the Lockheed F-12A interceptor (later the SR-71), opting instead to remain with the F-106 as the primary interceptor to protect the continental USA from air attack.
The USAF's Improved Manned Interceptor program, which was an attempt to find a replacement for the Convair F-106 Delta Dart.




North American/Rockwell NR-349
Grumman (F-14 IMI)
Convair (F-106E/F)

Does anyone have any art work, drawing, and specifications for these three proposals
And was there others?
The North American/Rockwell NR-349 looks very interesting with its three General Electric J79 turbojets, although a two Pratt & Whitney F100 turbofan arrangement would had been better and more efficient engine arrangement (I think).
I also think the semi-recessed arrangement for its six Phoenix AAM’s would also be very efficient.
–Some say it could have been America’s equivalent to the Soviet
MiG-25 Foxbat

Regards
Pioneer

I think the F-106E/F was slightly before IMI. It was proposed in '68 where IMI wasn't until '71 or so. For the Vigilante (NR-349) the 3 J79s would have put out much more power than a pair of F100s especially at high speed and altitude. However there WAS a version of the Vigilante kicked around with a pair of J58s. Sombody here posted a couple of excellent pictures of the NR-349 on the Key Publishing forum (ironically I even suggested they might want to post them here :) ) I think it might have been Martje? Anyway here they are. . . As far as it being a Foxbat equivalent none of these were designed for high heat so Mach 2.8 would have been iffy. The F-12B and F-108 would have easily been up to the task though.
Would the NR-349 have a gun? I know that it's not too likely given its role as an interceptor, but I'd just like to know if that could be possible.
I don't know. The Vigilante didn't have one so they'd have to come up with space for it.
 
Notably, the large missiles look rather more slender than an AIM-56, but about right for an AIM-47. In addition, FAST packs are fitted. I wonder if this model has roots in the F-15Y requirement.

Phoenix also mentioned in F-15 IMI context:

"The F-15 for IMI would have a fuel pallet on either side of the engine nacelle and two 600-gal external tanks. The aircraft would be armed with either four Hughes Phoenix missiles or 4-6 modified Hughes AIM-47 Falcon missiles, AIM-47Cs,” said another Defense official.

“The Air Force already spent $300,000 on a conceptual study for adapting the AIM-47 for ADC use. It was estimated that $100 million would be required for research and development costs, so the AIM-47C program was turned down
within the Air Force,” he said.

The study points out that the ADC role, particularly when the IMI is operating in high electronic countermeasures
environments, requires a two-place aircraft for maximum effectiveness, said the Pentagon.


AvWeek, 21 May 1973



Estimated production cost of the F-15 (N-PHX) was $12.2 million per copy on a rate of eight per month, alongside normal F-15 production. It would lose 2,240lb by dispensing with the AIM-7 hardware and missiles, but gain 4,000lb for four Phoenix, 360lb for the launchers and 500lb for pylons.
 
Last edited:
Estimated production cost of the F-15 (N-PHX) was $12.2 million per copy on a rate of eight per month, alongside normal F-15 production. It would lose 2,240lb by dispensing with the AIM-7 hardware and missiles, but gain 4,000lb for four Phoenix, 360lb for the launchers and 500lb for pylons.
So, would be 2,620lbs heavier, not counting radar weight differences.
 

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