US Supersonic Transport (SST) Program 1960-1971

[blackkite]

Mid 1963
NASA requested Boeing and Lockheed to conduct a comparative study on the four plans SCAT17, SCAT4, SCAT16, and SCAT15.
The first Image top to bottom
SCAT4
SCAT17 later became B2707-300, L2000 and NAC60
SCAT16 later became B2707-200
SCAT15 later became SCAT15F

SCAT4 was Richard Whitcomb's idea. SCAT4 was a very advanced design.
I can see following SCAT4 shapes.
(1)Six engine type
(2)Vertical and horizontal tail stabilizer with 4 engine type

NACA/NASA Langley: Celebrating 100 Years

NASA.gov brings you the latest images, videos and news from America's space agency. Get the latest updates on NASA missions, watch NASA TV live, and learn about our quest to reveal the unknown and benefit all humankind.

crgis.ndc.nasa.gov

 

[blackkite]

Hi! SCAT18 report.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19670017971.pdf

Same topic is here.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/scat-18-sst.8466/#post-75292

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
The Evolution of the High-Speed Civil Transport. No information about Republic proposal.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19940021652.pdf

Also Convair 1961 SST information is here.

General Dynamics SST: 1961 – The Unwanted Blog

 

[blackkite]

Is this a Convair SST? I can't see any windows for passengers.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/fast-airplane-jpg.205857/

 

[hesham]

Is this a Convair SST? I can't see any windows for passengers.

Yes,and I sent it before.

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
NAA company showing their 1963-64 proposals.
And NAC2000 SST.

North American Aviation SST’s: Men and their toys (IV).

In the 1960s the arrival of the supersonic transport (SST) was seen as a logical conclusion. That urge concretized in the development and construction of two supersonic airliners: the Anglo-French …

elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com

Supersonic Transport (SST) North American Aviation NAC 2000 aircraft, artistic rendering, 1960s Stock Photo - Alamy

Download this stock image: Supersonic Transport (SST) North American Aviation NAC 2000 aircraft, artistic rendering, 1960s - TDR1DE from Alamy's library of millions of high resolution stock photos, illustrations and vectors.

www.alamy.com

 

[galgot]

Here is an interesting 1974 NASA report on testing a T-Tailed 733-290 like configuration, which I find even nicer than the 733-290. I believe it’s the same model as this one :



here is the model scale plan extracted from the report:



As noted by Skybolt before in post #224, T-tail was tested for the 733 before, being rejected because of deep-stall problem, But this was re-investigated later after the end of SST program to see if CCV would solve the problem , here an interesting extract:

The present study is part of an overall effort by the NASA to provide the technology base for the development of advanced supersonic vehicles. The configuration concept which is the subject of this paper is a derivative of one studied in the National SST (supersonic transport) program (references 1 and 2) and traces its ancestry to the SCAT 16 configuration of the SCAT
(supersonic commercial air transport) studies (reference 3). As studied in the SST program, the concept exhibited one of the highest ratios of payload to gross weight of all those submitted for evaluation.
The dominant feature of the configuration is its non-integrated, variable-sweep wing. The variable-sweep feature was utilized to provide high
levels of low-speed lift, good subsonic flight efficiency, and good supersonic
cruise efficiency with a relatively small, highly loaded wing which would
involve less structural design uncertainty than would the lightly loaded, large wings of competing concepts.
The primary reason for abandoning the non-integrated, variable-sweep concept during its development was a conflict between longitudinal stability
criteria of that time, and effects of the engine exhaust on the horizontal tail. Placement of the horizontal tail in a high, or T-tail, position would have eliminated adverse thermal and acoustic effects of the jet on the tail and would have prevented a venturi-like suck-down of the horizontal tail as the exhaust jet streamed between it and the ground during takeoff rotation, both of which were problems for a low-tail configuration.
However, a T-tail was generally known to produce a deep-stall problem as the tail dropped into the wake of the stalled wing and became ineffective. Because "stick pusher"
or attitude-limiting systems, which are dependent upon attitude and pitch- rate sensing, were not then considered permissible in commercial aircraft, the contractor conducting the SST study ultimately took the alternate route of integrating the wing and horizontal tail, and suspending the engine nacelles from the latter, before abandoning the variable-sweep approach altogether. Since that time, developments in stability criteria and in aero- electronic technology and an increased emphasis on CCV (control-configured vehicles) have opened the path to serious study of a T-tail solution of the problems of the variable-sweep SST.

 

[blackkite]

Oh super!! Thanks a lot.
This tail shape was same as B727, but engine lcation is diffenent.

press この動画はyoutubeでご覧下さい。

 

[blackkite]

Hi!　
And 733-290 test model images.

Boeing Images - SST Wind Tunnel Model Testing

Welcome to The Boeing Company's official source for licensed aerospace photography, illustrations and videos.

secure.boeingimages.com

 

[galgot]

"[B]Chris Sloan[/B]‏ @[B]airchive[/B] Original Boeing 2707 SST model in the 1964-68 AstroJet livery on display at the American Airlines Annual Leadership Conference Expo courtesy of the C.R. Smith Museum."



Btw, I (we ) keep posting stuff in this monster thread, but if modos find it inapropriate i'll stop. For sure the thread is a wealth of infos on the SST, excellent reference, but it's also getting difficult to follow due to size and images posted 2 or even 3 times in the thread (my bad too...).

 

[blackkite]

galgot-san!
How about Douglas 2229 official models?
There are three models, each models have little different shape?

Douglas Model 2229 SST - DA.C

Have managed to recently acquire three Douglas model 2229 SST models, one is of a shorter length in subsonic configuration, whereas the other two are

www.diecastaircraftforum.com

 

[galgot]

I think its the same design. Only , one model shows it in cruise supersonic configuration ( wing tips moved down like XB-70, and windshield in up position), while the others are in lower speed configuration.

 

[blackkite]

Left side model's cockpit upper fuselage is rounded and canard seems to be small. And fuselage each side windows are 71 where other two windows are 84/85.
Left side model is short. It's a long range version same as L2000-7A?

 

[galgot]

Left side model's cockpit upper fuselage is rounded and canard seems to be small. And fuselage each side windows are 71 where other two windows are 84/85.
Left side model is short. It's a long range version same as L2000-7A?

Ah yes ! didn't noticed that. Would be nice to know what is writen of the coper plates on the stands... if they have something different from each other.
EDIT : seems its all writen "Douglas SST" ...

Btw, never really checked Douglas 2229 history. Wikipedia page is quite detailled :
"...After studying the design, Douglas concluded that the SST would not work economically, and declined to enter the Model 2229 in the National Supersonic Transport (NST) program in 1963."
Wise guys ...

 

[blackkite]

Indeed.
If I was in charge, I never stopped.

The last picture shows SCAT-16?

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19850020600.pdf

SCAT-16; Variable Sweep Model in 40x80 Wind T.. | Free public domain photo - 441673

Download free image of SCAT-16; Variable Sweep Model in 40x80 Wind Tunnel at NASA Ames. 3/4 view of model in cruise configuration with 25 deg. Sweep

www.rawpixel.com

 

[taildragger]

Btw, never really checked Douglas 2229 history. Wikipedia page is quite detailled :
"...After studying the design, Douglas concluded that the SST would not work economically, and declined to enter the Model 2229 in the National Supersonic Transport (NST) program in 1963."
Wise guys ...
[/QUOTE]
R.E.G Davies, who worked in marketing at Douglas, based a book on why SSTs would never make sense.

 

[blackkite]

A renowned Japanese scholar said: “Stupid people and engineers want to make fast and big things.”

Association for the Study of Failure

NPO The Association for the Study of Failure

www.shippai.org

Engineers are really hard work.
First he needs to have enough talent.
If he doesn't show his originality, he can't satisfy his customers.
His proposal is the best of all proposals and must be feasible.
Careful attention is required so as not to make mistakes.
He must study every day to get the latest information.
His work is really sober(Planning, Calculation, Development, Integration, Simulation, trade off study and make Fabrication/testing sequence), and he has to work hard until late at night.
Sometimes he has to sacrifice his weekend fun.
If something happens, he first thinks it is his responsibility.

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Convair study.
Sorry I miss the source.

 

[galgot]

I’m looking for infos about the wing fixed part leading edge of model 733-197.
On the plan sold at:

Air Drawing 46: 733-197 SST blueprint – The Unwanted Blog

One can see this :

and also on this image :

from this document:

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/803509.pdf

My question is , how can the leading edge go from sharp edge to "bulbous".
I don’t understand how the section can go from sharp to round…
Only found this illustration of something a bit similar (changing the LE section) , some complicated Krueger flaps ?

I don’t even understand exactly how these work, as the skin lay flat when closed, then its curved when opened…
Could it be this kind of thing on the 733-197 wing ?

Edit:
Ok, the example above show 747 Krueger flaps, here better image :

Patent here :

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/55/88/7b/f8e09d30c52a18/US3504870.pdf

Still, don't think it would work on the -197 drawing, as it would have to bend the surface much more.
Plus it looks completely closed on the underside on the -197 drawing.
So maybe something like that :

 

[TomcatViP]

Look at section f-f (LERX) and think at the sweep angle of blended section. The extended part is just hidden inside the outer shape and deployed to increase alpha tolerence before flow separation.

On the mig, the flap is rotated from a tangent recessed position. Nothing prevent you to carve a volume on the underside to have that flap tip bulbous.

 

[galgot]

While googling , the search engine presented me a small image preview included in this document :

AIAA Aerospace Research Central

25 $ to download !

anyway here is the small image :

Think is 733-636. Funny, I thought all arrow wings models would be numbered 969-xxx.
Looks like a -300 with delta wing swapped to a arrow wing.

 

[Johnbr]

Fast airplanes also have to fly well at low speeds to take off and land. Here, a technician is installing the nose landing gear on a proposed High-Speed Civil Transport model to prepare it for high-angle-of-attack tests in the 14- by 22-Foot Tunnel. The test section walls were in their closed position for these tests.

 

[galgot]

Fast airplanes also have to fly well at low speeds to take off and land. Here, a technician is installing the nose landing gear on a proposed High-Speed Civil Transport model to prepare it for high-angle-of-attack tests in the 14- by 22-Foot Tunnel. The test section walls were in their closed position for these tests.

Aie !! My hears ! No shouting please ...

This one is from after 1971, not sure if it's Boeing or MDD.

 

[blackkite]

This one?

https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/ar74iq

 

[galgot]

Yes, HSCT :

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/us-supersonic-transport-sst-program-post-1971.4786/

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

Wing is very large. Perfectly different dimension.

1:400 Boeing 2707-300 SST - DA.C

After closing down production last year, JR Lacerda,(my business partner), is now tweaking the MKII version of this model. It will be on a very

www.diecastaircraftforum.com

 

[Orionblamblam]

anyway here is the small image :
View attachment 618183
Think is 733-636.

SHAZAM!

Sadly, that's as good as it gets for this source.

 

[galgot]

anyway here is the small image :
View attachment 618183
Think is 733-636.

SHAZAM!

Sadly, that's as good as it gets for this source.

Excellent !! Thank you Scott

 

[galgot]

Canadian Pacific Spanner mag march 1964, images from here :

CP Air

History of CP Air

cpair.blogspot.com

 

[hesham]

From Ailes 17/10/1959.

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
I compare Boeing B2707-300 prototype and operational.
Operational model is about 3.5m longer than prototype model.Wing front view slightly changed. Horizontal tail stabilizer moved higher position.
Outboard aileron area enlarged.
Operatinal model fuselage shape looks like L2000-7B.
Prototype model range : 3575nm, Operational model range : 3530nm

Source : Aireview magazine and...

Boeing 2707-300 - DA.C

Come on Avation200, Gemini, Herpa, Hogan, RS/SM if you Build it we will buy. Please feel free to add and comment.

www.diecastaircraftforum.com

 

[blackkite]

This drawing shows prototype.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/boeing-2707-300-jpg.50298/

And attached drawing shows operational model.

 

[galgot]

This drawing shows prototype.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/boeing-2707-300-jpg.50298/

Hi Blackkite San,
Sorry , i think this one shows the -300 as intented as in late 1968 / early 1969, not specifically the prototype.
See configurations released by Boeing to the press at the period, and published with the very detailled cutaway plan in several magazines at these times, namely Interavia, AviationMagazine,
Flight International and Japanese AirReview (i think...).
Then in Late 1969 another configuration is released, with a new tailplane geometry. One short 280 ft production model, then a 286 ft prototype and a 298 ft Production model.
See the following montage, I love SST ornithology :

 

[blackkite]

Ummm..........very difficult.
Horizontal tail stabilizer shape!!
Boeing planned domestic version and intercontinental version same as Lockheed L2000-7A and 7B?(Same as Douglas 2229?)

 

[galgot]

Ummm..........very difficult.
Horizontal tail stabilizer shape!!
Boeing planned domestic version and intercontinental version same as Lockheed L2000-7A and 7B?(Same as Douglas 2229?)

I don't know for the 2707-300, but back on the 733-290 yes, I saw two versions intended mentioned on the same Boeing 733-290 presentation.
One domestic and one intercontinental. Same dimensions but different weight (fuel and pax capacity I suppose).
Sorry don't have the numbers, documents are not mines.

Edit : got the infos , here you go,
planned was 733-290 "Intercontinental" with
230 pax
500000 lbs Max ramp weight
219900 lbs operating empty weight
320000 lbs Max Ldg weight
264180 lbs Fuel capacity
16-40" main gear tires size

And 733-291 "transcontinental" (domestic) with
209 pax
425000 lbs Max ramp weight
205900 lbs operating empty weight
302000 lbs Max Ldg weight
204100 lbs Fuel capacity
16-38" main gear tires size

Both same external dimensions/shape and same GE4 engines.

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Boeing 733-290 larger image and 3D model.

Amazon.com: Vintage photo of the boeing 733 aircrafft: Entertainment Collectibles

Amazon.com: Vintage photo of the boeing 733 aircrafft: Entertainment Collectibles

www.amazon.com

Boeing 733 SST American Air Lines - 3D Model by Dreamscape Studios

This model is built very near to scale within a few inches of actual general dimensions and is fully textured. This model has animateable flaps, ailerons, landing gear, landing gear doors, elevators, and rudder. It is available in multiple airline liveries.

www.renderhub.com

I have never seen 733-390 large drawing.

 

[hesham]

From Ailes 13/6/1961,

the Northrop SST.

 

[galgot]

Hi! Boeing 733-290 larger image and 3D model.

Amazon.com: Vintage photo of the boeing 733 aircrafft: Entertainment Collectibles

Amazon.com: Vintage photo of the boeing 733 aircrafft: Entertainment Collectibles

www.amazon.com

Boeing 733 SST American Air Lines - 3D Model by Dreamscape Studios

This model is built very near to scale within a few inches of actual general dimensions and is fully textured. This model has animateable flaps, ailerons, landing gear, landing gear doors, elevators, and rudder. It is available in multiple airline liveries.

www.renderhub.com

I have never seen 733-390 large drawing.

thanks, I didn't had that 733-290 image at that size

The 3d model is not correct, I wouldn't put 10 $ for it. For the -290 the nose wasn't suppose to drop like that and MLG is not like that. Also very simplified wing and all.

 

[blackkite]

This drawing shows Boeing 2707-200.(Please confirm drawing title.)
Single cranked nose and canard.