chuck4 said:
TaiidanTomcat said:
Mach 3 bombers approaching from the sea will have to fly over nothing.

As would subsonic flying wing VLOs....

The chinese SAMs, as forward deployed as possible, say right on the beach, will still have to compete in range against any stand off weapons launched from the bombers.

so once again... why do we need B-70s then? You just said that its not like the USSR and yet you still feel you need a B-70 because thats the best way to beat a USSR style network. why not have a bomber that sacrifices mach 3 speed to carry more fuel and more stand off weapons instead? Do we really need an expensive mach 3 cruise missile plunker?

You keep trumping your own ace. ;D

You keep cherry picking what I said.

Im sorry I just genuinely don't understand it. If everything you say is true, and you don't have to worry about penetrating SAM belts, then why do you need a Mach 3 high flying bomber that is... meant to penetrate SAM belts? If we can comfortably stand off munition China into oblivion, then why do we need the B-70? Is it to really surprise or impress china or something? IT flys in at thousands of miles per hour to loose its cruise missile and do a U turn hundreds of miles from chinas shore?

And if China realizes your strategy (Hey the Americans are finding new ways to bankrupt themselves in order to launch some cruise missiles a different way) why are you so sure they bankrupt themselves on a SAM network that can't help them?
 
sferrin said:
TaiidanTomcat said:
Surely you must be mistaken Sundog, Because Ryan says it was invincible up until the day it was retired, and Chuck is saying that a modern B-70 is still a viable option.

According to at least one Blackbird pilot even the SA-5 could have taken them out, "anytime it wanted".

Impossible!! Was the blackbird pilot aware of how fast the SR-71 could go? ;D

RyanCrierie said:
I assume they were all shot down by SAMs. Oh wait, nothing but minor skin damage to some SR-71s, despite four digit numbers of SAMs being shot at them.

Oh wait, The black bird was also built with LO features, the XB-70 wasn't, so comparing them wouldn't really be smart would it? One could say even then they knew that pure speed wouldn't be enough. in fact one could even postulate that the SR-71's LO also helped it avoid being shot down... uh oh. and As Sundog said, the B-70 would be easily detected and shot down.

But Sundog can't be right can he? If only there was another combat aircraft with high speed and no LO features to compare it to. Maybe a Fighter that can only go Mach 3 by redlining the engines, but can still get to mach 2.8 pretty easily. How is the combat record of the Mig-25 Foxbat? I mean with that speed it must be impossible to intercept! Oh no wait...

So your mission now Ryan should you choose to accept it, is explain how a top notch plane like the SR-71 needed both high speed and LO to survive and the B-70 would just need Speed. I'm sorry Ryan but the SR-71s impressive record is tainted by the fact that it had LO helping it, im so sorry. So if we wanted to have a modern B-70, with SR-71 success we would need LO features on it too right? (Chuck will disagree with me on this)
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
I thought the SR-71 was invented because we learned all the way back in the 1950s after Gary Powers was shot down that we could no longer "fly higher than the missiles could reach" ?? We had to be FAST and high?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blip-to-scan_ratio
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB54/st08.pdf

The reasoning behind going to higher, faster, and lower RCS had a lot to do with the blip-scan studies. While the A-12 was under development they knew it would be vulnerable to TALL KING by the time it was operational, which is one of the reasons it was never used to overfly the Soviet Union.
Paul Suhler's book "From Rainbow To Gusto" covers these subjects very well.
http://www.amazon.com/From-Rainbow-Gusto-Lockheed-Blackbird/dp/160086712X


TaiidanTomcat said:
But why did the USAF choose to retire the blackbird then, when modern versions of the U-2 are still being used?? Why would the USAF opt for VLO? I mean hasn't the USAF fielded far more VLO aircraft than mach 3+ machines? why did it retire the mach 3 machines at the earliest convenience? Why does the USAF even bother with aircraft that can't go mach 3? Surely there must be a reason?

At the time of the SR-71's final retirement it performed a very different mission than the U-2/TR-1.
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
chuck4 said:
TaiidanTomcat said:
Mach 3 bombers approaching from the sea will have to fly over nothing.

As would subsonic flying wing VLOs....

The chinese SAMs, as forward deployed as possible, say right on the beach, will still have to compete in range against any stand off weapons launched from the bombers.

so once again... why do we need B-70s then? You just said that its not like the USSR and yet you still feel you need a B-70 because thats the best way to beat a USSR style network. why not have a bomber that sacrifices mach 3 speed to carry more fuel and more stand off weapons instead? Do we really need an expensive mach 3 cruise missile plunker?

You keep trumping your own ace. ;D

You keep cherry picking what I said.

Im sorry I just genuinely don't understand it. If everything you say is true, and you don't have to worry about penetrating SAM belts, then why do you need a Mach 3 high flying bomber that is... meant to penetrate SAM belts? If we can comfortably stand off munition China into oblivion, then why do we need the B-70? Is it to really surprise or impress china or something? IT flys in at thousands of miles per hour to loose its cruise missile and do a U turn hundreds of miles from chinas shore?

And if China realizes your strategy (Hey the Americans are finding new ways to bankrupt themselves in order to launch some cruise missiles a different way) why are you so sure they bankrupt themselves on a SAM network that can't help them?

Let me itemize for you:

1. You don't have to overfly the SAM belt, but you still can be engaged by the SAM belt. Flying very fast and very high shortens the range at which the SAM can effectively engage you, it widens the belt in which your plane can fire your stand off weapons but the SAMs cab't effectively engage your planes.
2. In the belt in which SAM can't hit you but you can launch your stand off weapons, there would probably be G5 supercruising fighters out to make your plane's life hard. In this case, being able to out run them by a comfortable margin, say sustaining a speed twice as fast as the figters, would give you much greater leeway to avoid the fighters, or to exploit any holes that the current of battle might open in the energy fighter screen.
3. I am sure China knows this perfectly. But they would still be forced to commit to a heavy SAM defense because while much of their industry and economy is on the coast, there is more of it in land, and it would be even worse for them if the bombers could come flying right over the coast to bomb targets deep in land.
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
sferrin said:
TaiidanTomcat said:
Surely you must be mistaken Sundog, Because Ryan says it was invincible up until the day it was retired, and Chuck is saying that a modern B-70 is still a viable option.

According to at least one Blackbird pilot even the SA-5 could have taken them out, "anytime it wanted".

Impossible!! Was the blackbird pilot aware of how fast the SR-71 could go? ;D


No, the Soviets were simply too stupid to realise what a propaganda banaza it was to shoot down the SR-71, and they have absolutely no secrets which they wanted to keep hidden from the SR-71. So they just sat in the control cab of SA-5 batteries, twerling their thumbs in the interest of international peace and good will, while the SR-71 flew overhead taking pictures.
 
1. You don't have to overfly the SAM belt, but you still can be engaged by the SAM belt.

of course the stealthy flying wing doesn't have to worry about this.

Flying very fast and very high VLO shortens the range at which the SAM can effectively engage you, it widens the belt in which your plane can fire your stand off weapons but the SAMs cab't effectively engage your planes.

fixed it for ya (see how those things are interchangeable?)


In this case, being able to out run them by a comfortable margin,

Did those silly Chinese remember to build Gen 5 fighters but forgot to equip them with forward aspect BVR missiles? That is so like them!

And how comfortable is comfortable? if your bomber is pushing mach 3 with Afterburner that can be seen from space, and a Chinese fighter is flying at mach 2, how comfortable is it going to be? And if thats not comfy enough? Just how fast does our B-70 have to fly? Mach 4?

say sustaining a speed twice as fast as the figters, would give you much greater leeway to avoid the fighters, or to exploit any holes that the current of battle might open in the energy fighter screen.

Again everything this modern B-70 can do, the B-2 can do already, and surely the Next Gen bomber will do even better if it relies on stealth and sensors.

3. I am sure China knows this perfectly.

I don't doubt that, so why would they try to make a bad strategy work? Can they not read a map or even a book and learn from the USSR? What makes us so certain we will bankrupt them like the USSR? I mean China hasn't exactly copied the USSR in the global economy? What happens when China doesn't construct these massive SAM belts and thousands of fighters because it has nothing to fear from a Mach 3 bomber that can be seen from a long distance blundering into a wall of stealth fighters that will shoot it in the face? Not only that but does China construct all this when it can see B-70s coming from forever away anyway? What scares the Chinese into feverishly buying 21st century technology to combat 1960's tech? What if the Chinese Just decide to have patroling fighters and AWACs style aircraft rather than massive SAM belts and ground radars? what if instead of 2000 J-20s they get like 100 and say "thats fine" We spent a small fortune just to make them spend a small fortune and they weren't scared enough to take the bait. We have a lot of white elephants though.

What if SAC had 100 B-70s when they switched to low level penetration, thus totally negating the B-70s only advantages? Speed and Height? And why would we think the 21st century Chinese couldn't accomplish the same feat the Russians pulled off in the 1960s?

Every attribute you give our new B-70 is the same thing we can get with a VLO flying wing, except the break neck speed, which it doesn't need to accomplish the exact same thing and it doesn't have to guzzle fuel like i do Jagermeister when my football team loses while im on shore leave. the slower VLO airplane makes up for lack of speed with more fuel efficiency and room for weapons and sensors and electronic countermeasures and the ability to hang around in case other targets show up, and the enemy has to devote more resources just to find it.

The entire premise is based on the idea that with enough Height and speed you can't be hurt in numbers that matter but a lot of folks here have already pointed out that not only is that not the case, but it hasn't been for some time now.
 
Starting pointed at each other a few hundred miles apart, a Mach 3 bomber could turn and out flank a Mach 2 fighter, including the range of its BVR missiles, in aound 5 minutes, assuming we credit the BVR missile with full nominal range eventhough it is would probably devolve into a tail chase against a Mach 3 aircraft, which is the worst possible scenario for an AA missile's actual effective range.

A VLO bomber won't ever outflank any J-20, even if the J-20 shuts down one engine and try to go for it with only guns.
 
chuck4 said:
Starting pointed at each other a few hundred miles apart, a Mach 3 bomber could turn and out flank a Mach 2 fighter, including the range of its BVR missiles, in aound 5 minutes, assuming we credit the BVR missile with full nominal range eventhough it is would probably devolve into a tail chase against a Mach 3 aircraft, which is the worst possible scenario for an AA missile's actual effective range.

A VLO bomber won't ever outflank any J-20, even if the J-20 shuts down one engine and try to go for it with only guns.

How does the B-70 detect the J-20s?
 
Must the B-70 do everything? That's why you think it would cost 10 billion dollars, man.

But seriously. I think passive detection and/or very low frequency radar probably can't pin point a stealth aircraft for a direct attack, but it probably provide eough information to indicate roughly where it is and where not to go in order to avoid it.

In a netcentric environment, it won't have to be the B-70 doing the detecting. It could be passive detection by bases in Japan, or Guam, or South Korea, etc. B-70 just needs a data link to know that a body of J-20s is located roughly here to avoid them. Yes, J-20 can actually see the B-70 avoiding them. But what can they do?

Also, keep in mind the B-70 with its height and speed advantage could also impart a huge kenetic energy advantage to any weapon it launches. The same AAM launched by the B-70 would have a lot more range than launched by the J-20. So you might also use this advantage to launch a pack of AAMs at the approximate location of the J-20, making the J-20 pilot blink and think twice before even trying to intercept because the incoming missiles would have much greater range than his own just because B-70's speed and altitude, and if he doesn't turn away before reaching his own firing range, may be the incoming missile would find him inspite of his stealth.
 
chuck4 said:
No, the Soviets were simply too stupid to realise what a propaganda banaza it was to shoot down the SR-71, and they have absolutely no secrets which they wanted to keep hidden from the SR-71. So they just sat in the control cab of SA-5 batteries, twerling their thumbs in the interest of international peace and good will, while the SR-71 flew overhead taking pictures.

When did the A-12 or SR-71 overfly Soviet territory, much less a Soviet SA-5 site?
 
chuck4 said:
Starting pointed at each other a few hundred miles apart, a Mach 3 bomber could turn and out flank a Mach 2 fighter, including the range of its BVR missiles, in aound 5 minutes, assuming we credit the BVR missile with full nominal range eventhough it is would probably devolve into a tail chase against a Mach 3 aircraft, which is the worst possible scenario for an AA missile's actual effective range.

Most fighter engagements are substantially shorter than 5 minutes.
The turn radius for the SR-71 was about 100 miles. Your notional mach 3 bomber would be around that, if not larger. It can be very difficult for manned aircraft flying in this regime to maneuver effectively.

chuck4 said:
A VLO bomber won't ever outflank any J-20, even if the J-20 shuts down one engine and try to go for it with only guns.

Why would it need, or want to outflank a J-20?
 
Because J-20 will be a reference I mean in the futur, and if you can't escape this kind of fighter the credibility of a bomber will be near of zero
 
Of course the VLO flying wing stakes its entire survival on being able to avoid detection. Should it be detected, it has no real means of defending itself, and we've already seen subsonic VLO get shot down by antiquated SAM. Add to that the B-70 wouldn't rely on speed alone - it would carry and deploy its own Quail-like decoys as well as missiles designed to intercept and kill aircraft or incoming missiles, much like a faster B-52.
 
Nils_D said:
Of course the VLO flying wing stakes its entire survival on being able to avoid detection. Should it be detected, it has no real means of defending itself, and we've already seen subsonic VLO get shot down by antiquated SAM. Add to that the B-70 wouldn't rely on speed alone - it would carry and deploy its own Quail-like decoys as well as missiles designed to intercept and kill aircraft or incoming missiles, much like a faster B-52.

So even more money just to do it's mission. That cost needs to be factored in as well.
 
Nils_D said:
it would carry and deploy its own Quail-like decoys as well as missiles designed to intercept and kill aircraft or incoming missiles, much like a faster B-52.

Oh can only a mach 3 super bomber do stuff like that?


chuck4 said:
I also contend B70 without 21st century whistle and bells won't be as expensive as you think.

Don't look now, but suddenly we are adding 21st century whistle and bells...
 
Oh can only a mach 3 super bomber do stuff like that?

[font=verdana, sans-serif][/size]Deploying huge radiating decoys and firing AAMs from a VLO bomber kind of defeats the purpose of being VLO in the first place, don't you think? But it's ok. I'm sure the B-52's will still be the primary bomber by the time you guys need to strike China.[/font]
 
Nils_D said:
Oh can only a mach 3 super bomber do stuff like that?

[font=verdana, sans-serif][/size]Deploying huge radiating decoys and firing AAMs from a VLO bomber kind of defeats the purpose of being VLO in the first place, don't you think? But it's ok. I'm sure the B-52's will still be the primary bomber by the time you guys need to strike China.[/font]


Firing AAMs kinda defeats the purpose of a bomber too, but lets not talk about that. ;)

I also have to wonder why a mach 3 high flying super bomber that relies on pure speed and height for protection, even needs defense measures like AAMs and Decoys? I mean since its so untouchable and all.
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
Nils_D said:
Oh can only a mach 3 super bomber do stuff like that?

Deploying huge radiating decoys and firing AAMs from a VLO bomber kind of defeats the purpose of being VLO in the first place, don't you think? But it's ok. I'm sure the B-52's will still be the primary bomber by the time you guys need to strike China.

Firing AAMs kinda defeats the purpose of a bomber too, but lets not talk about that. ;)

I also have to wonder why a mach 3 high flying super bomber that relies on pure speed and height for protection, even needs defense measures like AAMs and Decoys? I mean since its so untouchable and all.

Why did they make B-29 go as fast and as high as they could, and still add a bunch of machine guns on it? Since there would be machine guns on them anyway, wouldn't it be okay to just send a pack of ground hugging blimps to bomb japan?
 
quellish said:
When did the A-12 or SR-71 overfly Soviet territory, much less a Soviet SA-5 site?

The Swedes claimed to practice maneuvering Viggen fighters to try to lack onto SR-71 coming back from missions over Russia, and concluded it is impossible for any fighter to successfully intercept any SR-71 unless SR-71 comes in on a precisely predictable course without any deviation, which they in fact often did on the way out from Russia.

Despite the redicule Mig-25 caused, the west also concluded the Mig-25 is also virtually impossible to intercept unless it was flown stupidly and predictably.
 
quellish said:
chuck4 said:
No, the Soviets were simply too stupid to realise what a propaganda banaza it was to shoot down the SR-71, and they have absolutely no secrets which they wanted to keep hidden from the SR-71. So they just sat in the control cab of SA-5 batteries, twerling their thumbs in the interest of international peace and good will, while the SR-71 flew overhead taking pictures.

When did the A-12 or SR-71 overfly Soviet territory, much less a Soviet SA-5 site?

Not Soviet. Libyan as I recall.
 
On a diagression, does anyone have any information or drawings on an Israeli plan to modify the F-4 to go Mach 3? Apparently it still used J-79 engines, but with water injection. I understood the plan was axed by the US because the US refused to permit Israel to possess a capability that the US didn't.
 
chuck4 said:
TaiidanTomcat said:
Nils_D said:
Oh can only a mach 3 super bomber do stuff like that?

Deploying huge radiating decoys and firing AAMs from a VLO bomber kind of defeats the purpose of being VLO in the first place, don't you think? But it's ok. I'm sure the B-52's will still be the primary bomber by the time you guys need to strike China.

Firing AAMs kinda defeats the purpose of a bomber too, but lets not talk about that. ;)

I also have to wonder why a mach 3 high flying super bomber that relies on pure speed and height for protection, even needs defense measures like AAMs and Decoys? I mean since its so untouchable and all.

Why did they make B-29 go as fast and as high as they could, and still add a bunch of machine guns on it?

Are you helpfully pointing out that speed and height weren't enough for survival even back then?

Lets Review from a few pages ago shall we?

the Original idea was an aircraft that flew so fast and so high it was untouchable sure it could be seen from hundreds of miles away, but who cares? you couldn't hurt it. I posted a picture of an XB-70 and you said something along the lines of "we could build those today on the cheap with smart manufacturing and they would stay cheap if we avoided putting on a bunch of 21st century bells and whistles" and it would be just fine, while not perfect. It would even force those poor chinese to spend themselves into bankruptcy out of fear of our half century old tech.

over the next few pages people kind of debunked that pointing out that the 1980s were not the 1960's and 1970's. various posters pointing out that, it wasn't that simple and indeed the XB-70 today would be very vulnerable to attack... which brought us to:

21st century bells and whistles. Now the XB-70 suddenly needed a datalink, self defense and interceptor missiles, a radar capable of picking up stealth aircraft, and decoys.

So which is it? An off the shelf XB-70 that relies on speed and altitude to survive? or a more expensive 21st century version that relies on bells and whistles to keep it alive?

Ee3AKamsx0SDLWalRY73hA2.gif


chuck4 said:
virtually impossible to intercept unless it was flown stupidly and predictably.

Once again the exact same thing can be said of LO aircraft. In fact almost everyone concludes that is precisely what caused the only LO aircraft loss in combat. A lot of Foxbats must have been flown stupidly and predictably too.

chuck4 said:
The Swedes claimed to practice maneuvering Viggen fighters to try to lack onto SR-71 coming back from missions over Russia, and concluded it is impossible for any fighter to successfully intercept any SR-71 unless SR-71 comes in on a precisely predictable course without any deviation, which they in fact often did on the way out from Russia.

oh no!! did we confuse the SR-71 for the XB-70 again? :-[
 
Untouchable is your word.

Hard to touch, and therefore costly to try to touch, and even then seldomly successfully touched, would be my words.
 
chuck4 said:
Untouchable is your word.

Hard to touch, and therefore costly to try to touch, and even then seldomly successfully touched, would be my words.

A lot of people here don't think its that hard to touch really, and you started to modify your position to include more self defense measures.
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
chuck4 said:
Untouchable is your word.

Hard to touch, and therefore costly to try to touch, and even then seldomly successfully touched, would be my words.

A lot of people here don't think its that hard to touch really, and you started to modify your position to include more self defense measures.

The only self-defence measure I suggested was taking advantage of high energy of an Mach 3, 70,000 feet aircraft to take completely opportunistic long range AAM pot shots shots at defending fighters. It wasn't essential to the concept.
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
A lot of people here don't think its that hard to touch really, and you started to modify your position to include more self defense measures.
All of those self defense measures mentioned were planned for the B-70A back in the late 50's, but don't let that stop your strawman argument that the B-70 was somehow supposed to rely on high speed, high altitude as its sole means of survival.
 
Nils_D said:
TaiidanTomcat said:
A lot of people here don't think its that hard to touch really, and you started to modify your position to include more self defense measures.
All of those self defense measures mentioned were planned for the B-70A back in the late 50's, but don't let that stop your strawman argument that the B-70 was somehow supposed to rely on high speed, high altitude as its sole means of survival.

I didnt realize that. However we are still talking about engaging stealth fighters with said AAMs arent we?
 
Nope, was talking about knocking out incoming SAMs as a last resort. I thought we learned by 1943 that bombers cannot adequately protect themselves against enemy fighters and so they would have fighters (such as the precious F-22) performing fighter sweeps. You don't send in lone bombers against any credible air defense system. If we're talking all-out nuclear strike then enemy fighters are pretty much a non issue since airbases would be hit anyway with the first wave of ICBMs and SLBMs before the bombers arrive.
 
Nils_D said:
If we're talking all-out nuclear strike then enemy fighters are pretty much a non issue since airbases would be hit anyway with the first wave of ICBMs and SLBMs before the bombers arrive.
B-52 and B-1B would have blown their way in anyway, turning enemy radar installations, airfields, C3I nodes, etc into radioactive dust with SRAM, which even had the capability for 'over the shoulder' lofted shots backwards to a fixed point in space...useful to vaporize the MiGs pursuing you.
 
RyanCrierie said:
B-52 and B-1B would have blown their way in anyway, turning enemy radar installations, airfields, C3I nodes, etc into radioactive dust with SRAM,

The B-1B and B-52 were to use standoff weapons (AGM-129, AGM-86) as part of SIOP, not SRAMs. It was, in fact, the B-2 that was to use SRAMs and gravity bombs as part of SIOP.

RyanCrierie said:
which even had the capability for 'over the shoulder' lofted shots backwards to a fixed point in space...useful to vaporize the MiGs pursuing you.

It's a cute idea that was used in a movie (with a gravity bomb) but has no basis in reality.
 
quellish said:
It's a cute idea that was used in a movie (with a gravity bomb) but has no basis in reality.
Which? Launching OTS (which was a documented capability of the weapon) or using that capability to concievably vaporize pursuing MiGs?
 
XP67_Moonbat said:
My money's on F-302's with naquadria hyperdrive. They can get the job done! :p

But how do you procure alien-based technology with official funding? They'd be in for trouble.
I can see the picture: after Watergate, Irangate and Monicagate, we'd have Stargate...
 
quellish said:
The B-1B and B-52 were to use standoff weapons (AGM-129, AGM-86) as part of SIOP, not SRAMs. It was, in fact, the B-2 that was to use SRAMs and gravity bombs as part of SIOP.

? The B-1B never got ALCM capability, and when they were on alert for a short period before being de-nuked I'm pretty sure they did use the AGM-69 on occasion. B-1B and B-2A would've both used SRAM-II had it proceeded and the B-1B retained the nuke role.

quellish said:
When did the A-12 or SR-71 overfly Soviet territory, much less a Soviet SA-5 site?

Never. That's one of the more asinine myths that keeps getting repeated, just like the one that claimed that SR-71s stopped flying in locations where MiG-31s were deployed. MiG-31 pilots intercepting the Blackbird tend to disagree with that one. The SR-71A did overfly Libyan SA-5 GAMMON batteries. Whether they were operational at the time (post-EL DORADO CANYON) is another story. Regardless they often flew into SA-5 engagement zones along the Korean DMZ and various palces in Europe and the Middle East.
 
Never mind a B-70 rehash, I kinda had my hopes pinned on the B-1R Regional Bomber concept. Shame it's dormant now. Hey, does anyone know if a full report was ever released publicly for that beast? At the very least maybe a future APR article perhaps?
 

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