If you look at this:
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009psa_mar/young.pdf
On page 23 is an interesting diagram. NGB is listed as "NGB/Ph III". I assume this is a Phase 3 NGB with new capabilities for 2035?
 
Some bomber news from the Air Force Association

Elder Says Make Bomber Replacement Priority: The US needs to move quickly to field a new bomber because projections that the current inventory will last out to 2040 may be too optimistic, says retired Lt. Gen. Bob Elder, who led the nation's nuclear-capable bomber force for three years through June 2009. In fact, it's possible the Air Force's aging B-1 and B-52 bombers could wear out at least 10 years before their anticipated replacement date, Elder told the Congressional Long Range Strike Caucus Wednesday during a Capitol Hill briefing. He also argued that the US is simply not ready for an unmanned variant. "I don't think the nation is comfortable with an unmanned bomber. Maybe around the same time people are willing to fly in an unmanned commercial airliner, but I know I'm not ready for that," he said. The Air Force is still defining its future long-range strike platform. Its fielding is currently anticipated sometime in the 2020s.
 
hmmm... a B-1 replacement that could also fill B-2 capabilities. hypersonic or not hypersonic? and they direly need replacements. no wonder they're having a hard time deciding...
 
bobbymike said:
Some bomber news from the Air Force Association

Elder Says Make Bomber Replacement Priority: The US needs to move quickly to field a new bomber because projections that the current inventory will last out to 2040 may be too optimistic, says retired Lt. Gen. Bob Elder, who led the nation's nuclear-capable bomber force for three years through June 2009. In fact, it's possible the Air Force's aging B-1 and B-52 bombers could wear out at least 10 years before their anticipated replacement date, Elder told the Congressional Long Range Strike Caucus Wednesday during a Capitol Hill briefing. He also argued that the US is simply not ready for an unmanned variant. "I don't think the nation is comfortable with an unmanned bomber. Maybe around the same time people are willing to fly in an unmanned commercial airliner, but I know I'm not ready for that," he said. The Air Force is still defining its future long-range strike platform. Its fielding is currently anticipated sometime in the 2020s.


A pilot uncomfortable with pilotless planes? Yeah...

While I might buy not wanting to blow development dollars early on for a full unmanned variant, it's criminally stupid to not design in the necessary hardware/software hooks as an optionally manned aircraft and take their sweet time working on the unmanned mode. There is a cost with lugging around human support systems in an optionally unmanned plane (well, unless you have a convenient swappable cockpit block design...), as well as overbuilding an aircraft for unmanned maneuvers/performance that would never occur with humans onboard though.
 
I think it should be built as a reconnaissance platform with a weapon bay(s) instead of the other way around. With a mixed load of advanced and novel munitions, I think it's possible to build the platform around reconnaissance instead of bomber and still perform well for the bomber role. Perhaps, that way, money from building the next gen "sensorcraft" can be merged into the NGB. Recon using stealthy platform is a irreplacable need, unlike the bomber, where one can argue through using cruise missiles, etc. By building around the recon role, the program can possibly survive the budget cut easier.
 
^that's a good proposition. my list would be: very high altitude, very long range, ginormous capacity, ultra low observable and fast enough to GTFO

making it unmanned would come in handy to increase payload even further and in case the target is heavily fortified.

although, with a hypersonic cruise missile onboard, maybe there's no need to make it unmanned

just my 0.02
 
I rather doubt our next bomber will be unmanned simply due to the nuclear role it will probably take over from the B-52. I imagine the controversy over an unmanned aircraft carrying loads of nuclear cruise missiles would be pretty problematic. Abandoning the control the pilot has would also defeat that argument that helped keep our bomber fleet around in the age of ICBMs. Yeah you could control the whole thing for a typical JDAM delivery in Afghanistan, but in some sort of high-intensity scenario over well defended airspace, it would probably be forced to act autonomously for much of the mission.
 
There has been some talk of an OPA (optionally piloted aircraft). The required technologies, such as autonomous takeoff and landing, and inflight refueling, have been demonstrated. I would worry a little bit more about datalink security, but all in all it appears feasible for something that won't be flying before 15-20 years.
 
From the Air Force Association

More Long-Range Strike

Make Air Force long-range strike a priority, urges QDR independent panel.

—Michael C. Sirak
Aug. 2, 2010—"The Air Force has about the right structure except for the need to add long range strike—more long range strike," former Defense Secretary William Perry told the House Armed Services Committee July 29.

Perry was highlighting one of the Congressionally chartered Quadrennial Defense Review Independent Panel’s Air Force-related recommendations, which called for defense policymakers to increase long-range strike capability. This would come in the form of a new deep-strike heavy bomber and associated sensors.

Perry specifically told the HASC members that the review panel thinks the Air Force should move forward with "another deep strike [platform]." "In my opinion, we have such capability already in the B-2," he explained. "A follow-on to the B-2," he continued, should "have the kind of stealth capabilities that the B-2 has." Such stealth attributes are a "unique capability that the United States has today and one which will be very important to be incorporated in any new deep strike bomber," said Perry. But getting to the new bomber platform as part of the overall "urgent need" to modernize large portions of the US military will not be easy, the panel noted.

Indeed, they wrote: "We cannot reverse the decline of shipbuilding, buy enough naval aircraft, recapitalize Army equipment, modernize tactical aircraft (TACAIR), purchase a new aerial tanker, increase our deep-strike capability, and recapitalize the bomber fleet just by saving the $10 billion-$15 billion the [defense] department hopes to save through acquisition reform."

Perry co-chaired the bipartisan review panel with Stephen Hadley, assistant to President George H. Bush for national security affairs. The 18 panel members spent the past six months scrutinizing the findings of the Defense Department's 2010 QDR and coming up with their own observations. Their findings were unanimous.

The general trend of recent decades to replace older systems with fewer units of newer, more-capable systems is dangerous and will not suffice, they stated. "We are concerned that, beyond a certain point, quality cannot substitute for quantity," they asserted. Instead, meeting the crucial requirements of modernization "will require a substantial and immediate investment that is sustained throug the long term." Although that cost to the nation will be great, the "potential price associated with not recapitalizing" may be "much greater" in the long run, the panel warned.
 
I think I've seen this speech for every decade since World War II. They obviously haven't read much written by Norm Augustine.
 
Overscan,

it's not possible to enjoy the "all" posts view for this topic instead of the current "page#1,2,3..25"?
 
Artist's impression of Lockheed Martin aircraft concept painted by Wayne Begnaud. SSUCAS?

Source: Code One 2009 Volume 24, Number 2
 

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Weird question but... I seem to recall a "bomber" proposal that used a converted 747. It had stand-off (long-range) munitions mostly missiles and cruise missiles but also included the radars and such of the AWACS and JOINT-STARS types. I seem to recall it being called a "Battle Air/Space Control Aircraft" but that could be faulty memory. I seem to recall it being from the early 90s late 80s period and I also remember talk of tanker versions as well as a drone carrier version.

Any of this sound familiar to anyone?

Randy
 
All of the above sounds familiar, and you will find it in other threads. Search 'microfighter' for the airborne aircraft carrier. For the cruis missile carrier, the information might be scattered a little bit more. But I'm sure i have seen it on this forum.
 
The top pic looks like what the B-2 was to be before all the messing about (single saw tooth).

Nice and thank you.
 
AeroFranz said:
All of the above sounds familiar, and you will find it in other threads. Search 'microfighter' for the airborne aircraft carrier. For the cruis missile carrier, the information might be scattered a little bit more. But I'm sure i have seen it on this forum.
Thanks AeroFranz I've actually seen/read the micro-fighter stuff. (Neat concept) But that wasn't it as it had no fighters :)

One of the reasons I'm looking for information on the concept was because I'm curious to see how it would compare to converting something similar into a UAV/UCAV mother ship. Well, among other things. Doing some looking around at some of the early 747 tanker/cargo aircraft proposals got me to thinking of a 747 cargo/tanker aircraft that uses the T-Space air-launch trapeze-and-lanyard release system for launch rockets as well. Crazy stuff I know but I figure either folks here will come through for me or at least tell me my memory needs upgrading ;)

Randy
 
Two stories form the Air Force Association

Conventional First: The first iteration of the Air Force's next bomber-like aircraft will be oriented toward conventional warfare, top Air Force leaders said Monday. Air Force Secretary Michael Donley, addressing the Air Force Association's Air & Space Conference, said, "This time around … we are approaching long range strike capabilities mainly through conventional perspectives, where they are most likely to be used." Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz told the Daily Report immediately after Donley's speech that the aircraft won't have all the electromagnetic hardening necessary for nuclear strike, but will have "many of the basic electronics and subsystems" that a later nuclear version of the system could make use of. Donley said the Air Force will try to avoid previous failed attempts at bombers which had "narrowly focused capabilities, high risk technologies, and high costs contributing to affordability problems leading to program cancellations and low inventories." He also said it's "critical" that USAF have aircraft that can "range the planet."
—John A. Tirpak

"Still Raging": Don't expect a quick resolution to the Pentagon's internal Long Range Strike discussions, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz told the Daily Report. Schwartz said the "debate is still raging" about the specific requirements such an aircraft will have, and he doesn't expect resolution in the next few weeks. Air Force Secretary Michael Donley reiterated Monday that the aircraft will have roles in intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance, electronic warfare, and communications, besides strike. Lt. Gen. Christopher Miller, head of strategic plans and programs, said there are budgetary spaceholders for a LRS aircraft "same as last year," but it remains budgetarily undefined. "We're working it hard," Miller said.
 
New report on the future of Long Range Strike from the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments:

http://www.csbaonline.org/2006-1/index.shtml
 
P&W Pitches Engine For Long-Range Strike
By JOHN REED
Published: 15 Sep 2010 17:50

Pratt & Whitney officials today said the company may offer its PW9000 engine for whatever aircraft emerges from the Air Force's talks with the Pentagon over the future of long-range strike.

The engine features the stealth technology of Pratt's F135 engine, built for the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, wrapped around the core of the company's super fuel-efficient geared turbofan engine, which was designed for commercial jets, said Warren Boley chief of Pratt's military aircraft engines division on Sept. 15 during an Air Force Association-sponsored conference in Maryland.
Related Topics

Boley also said that work on the PW9000 is partly funded by a portion of the $1.7 billion set aside by the Pentagon to keep development work humming on technologies such as engines, radars and datalinks that will be key to any future long-range strike weapons. This hybrid engine technology can deliver between 10,000 and 30,000 pounds of thrust, meaning that it could also be used for a variety of other new aircraft, according to Boley. "In a future of small quantity [aircraft buys] and tight budgets" a scalable engine like the PW9000 "provides a tremendous opportunity for customers as well as Pratt," said Boley.
 
Air Force Lacks Schedule for Next Generation Bomber
Friday, Nov. 5, 2010

By Megan Scully

National Journal

WASHINGTON -- The defense industry has been anxiously awaiting information about the Air Force’s plans to buy a family of systems to replace its aging bomber fleet, but a senior service official indicated yesterday that there is no time frame yet for submitting a proposal to Defense Secretary Robert Gates (see GSN, Sept. 30). The Air Force has yet to prepare a time line for its plan to acquire technologies for a new generation of bomber aircraft, an official said yesterday (U.S. Defense Department photo).

During a breakfast with reporters, Lt. Gen. Philip Breedlove, the Air Force’s operations, plans, and requirements chief, said officials plan to breathe new life into existing bombers to keep them flying and effective until the next long-range strike platform and its support systems are ready.

“We are right now working out what we need to do to our existing fleet,” said Breedlove, who will be the service’s next four-star vice chief of staff. “We are continuing to update the B-1, B-52 even, and the B-2 to be able to have the capability we need far enough to the right [the future], so we can then bring on the family of systems.”

Breedlove refused to quantify when the service would need to field the new technologies to replace the current bomber fleet, already decades old. But he acknowledged that the effectiveness of the older bombers will “diminish over time” against increasingly sophisticated and capable threats.

“There is a time out there where, if we do nothing, we have no capability,” Breedlove said. But he stressed that the Air Force is “not standing still” and will keep the B-1s, B-2s, and B-52s operationally effective until the next generation of long-range strike is ready.

The general did say discussions between senior officials in the Air Force, the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and the other services have “moved pretty rapidly” to develop the vision for the family of systems. The ongoing deliberations over long-range strike will “deliver what our nation needs and what our nation can afford,” he added.

The Air Force had planned to field a long-range bomber by 2018. But Gates scrapped that idea last year and asked the Air Force to review its future long-range strike requirements. He also said a long-range, unmanned aircraft also should be considered.

Air Force officials will ultimately make a recommendation, which Gates then will decide whether to support.

“I do not have any insight at all into any time line or when that decision will be made,” Breedlove said. “I think when our team is able to give the secretary of defense sort of a final set of very informed recommendations, then he’ll take those under advisement. We are not there yet.”
----------------------------
Bolding mine.
 
From Aviation Week: Command Chief Not Involved In New Bomber Nov 10, 2010

By Amy Butler
The general officer overseeing the new U.S. Air Force command established to organize, train and equip the service’s strike forces is not involved in the day-to-day planning for a multibillion-dollar, next-generation bomber.

“Most of the work on Long-Range Strike and the follow-on is taking place within this city. Our focus is on the sustainment and modernization of B-52 and B-2,” Air Force Global Strike Command chief Lt. Gen. Frank Klotz tells reporters during a Nov. 9 Defense Writers’ Group breakfast in Washington. “I’m down there in Barksdale AFB, Louisiana, and I’m just not in the planning that is going on in the Pentagon.”

Officials at Air Force headquarters in the Pentagon would not say who is managing the requirements process for the next-generation bomber.

A new so-called Long Range Strike system has been repeatedly requested by Air Force leadership for nearly a decade, but Defense Secretary Robert Gates has halted the program for further study. Now, Air Force officials seem more optimistic a formal procurement will go forward, but the service has not publicly articulated basic requirements — such as payload size, range, low-observability needs and whether the aircraft could be unmanned — that will dictate how industry should design the platform.

Klotz says the command, which was activated in August 2009, is busy growing and establishing its bureaucracy, such as budgeting and requirements offices. And, command officials are daily overseeing stewardship of the Air Force’s nuclear weapons, which have been under scrutiny since mishaps in recent years.

Command officials are not, however, providing input for requirements for the next-generation bomber, he says. “We are a brand new command. A year ago we had 47 people in that headquarters,” Klotz said. “Now we are a full-up headquarters and we have a full-up programming and requirements [function], and I suspect we will be more involved in this process as times goes on.”

Typically major commands provide requirements to the Air Staff at the Pentagon, which then vets them, seeks approval from service and Pentagon leadership, and hands them off to the acquisition corps for purchase. In the past couple of years, acquisition officials have been invited to sit in on requirements sessions to ensure that operators’ appetites are in line with what can be acquired.

Klotz’s command is providing some planning input for the UH-1N replacement helicopter, which is needed to escort nuclear weapons around the missile fields and support the security missions for ICBMs. It has also assumed the role of providing advice on a Prompt Global Strike weapon, an ICBM-range conventionally tipped missile, which is being eyed by the Pentagon and Congress to attack some denied areas or specific special targets.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bolding mine. Here is my advise on Prompt Global Strike, a large Peacekeeper, at least, sized missile able to carry several HTV-2 type warheads global distances. Another option would be a wholly new missile large enough for a southern launch trajectory so as to be distinguishable from ICBM's. And a Minuteman III replacement (because I haven't posted that in about a week :D)
 
bobbymike said:
Bolding mine. Here is my advise on Prompt Global Strike, a large Peacekeeper, at least, sized missile able to carry several HTV-2 type warheads global distances. Another option would be a wholly new missile large enough for a southern launch trajectory so as to be distinguishable from ICBM's. And a Minuteman III replacement (because I haven't posted that in about a week :D)

The problem with MIRVing a PGS system would be that you'd need targets for all the RVs. In many of the PGS scenarios that would be a bad thing, you'd have to send them to splash down in the ocean.

It would not surprise me if a company formerly in Seattle was working on a new missile, using technology from previous programs, that allowed for such an "unusual" trajectory, for both air and surface launch, perhaps even working with one of the NewSpace companies.

But at the end of the day, Conventional Trident is the most near term solution. Everything but the non-nuclear warhead has been flown already and is ready for production. Testing used the equivalent of a KE "dummy" warhead anyway, and may have provided enough data to move forward that way.

For a while HTV-1 looked like a sure thing, as there had been a lot of work done on integrating it with conventional munitions as payloads. Then it got killed (for strange reasons) and HTV-2 got accelerated.
 
After cancellation of Constellation I would advocate a variety of PGS and MMIII replacement demonstration programs to help preserve and invigorate the solid rocket industrial base and other key ballistic missile technologies like guidance, light weight missile casings and RVs, etc.
 
Have there been any updates to NGB/2018 Bomber/LRS/Whatever This is Called Now? I haven't been able to keep track of this program. Are they still looking at a subsonic, highly stealthy, medium-ish sized bomber?

Personally I find the lack of news about new bomber development very concerning, considering how long it will take to actually get such a thing in production. And nothing gets the hippies up in arms like the simple use of the word "bomber" so that is going to be a fight.
 
There may already be a black program. Who knows really. Remember back when Reagan was critizing Carter for cutting the B-1 program without knowing that there's a new program for a fleet of revolutionary platforms that we now called the B-2?
 
donnage99 said:
There may already be a black program. Who knows really. Remember back when Reagan was critizing Carter for cutting the B-1 program without knowing that there's a new program for a fleet of revolutionary platforms that we now called the B-2?

Actually, it was known publicly that work was going on on reducing radar return, although not how and what, it was one of the excuses Carter gave for killing the B-1. In fact, work had actually started in 1975. Given his history on weapons systems, it's my [personal] belief that had Carter won the 1980 election, the B-2 would never have seen the light of day.
 
I think that the primary problem of any LRS/NGB effort in the past 15 years was the money. Do they allocated any? I expect that there should be some technology demonstrations programs too, maybe also some subscale flying testbed but I am not aware of any official requests for the new bomber, combined with the required funding.
 
Matej said:
I think that the primary problem of any LRS/NGB effort in the past 15 years was the money. Do they allocated any? I expect that there should be some technology demonstrations programs too, maybe also some subscale flying testbed but I am not aware of any official requests for the new bomber, combined with the required funding.

In Cold War days, it was easy to tell the American people that, yeah, a lot of money was being spent on secret stuff that was ensuring national security against the enemy and to get the financing for it, however indirect or concealed. Today it would be a heck of a job to convince the American people that the state-of-the-art B-2, which cost the taxpayer a fortune, and has only been active for two decades, is already in need of a replacement that will probably cost as much if not more. I think that one way to regain the general public's approval (and therefore that of the Congressmen who represent them) would be to open the lid from time to time on what's cooking in the so-called "black" world. If they could hear the DoD acknowledge the existence of secret prototypes, and get even the slightest glimpse of them, they would more easily swallow the expenses thereof if they are shown accurately the need for them and the strategic edge they represent.

I am always very surprised by how much of many classified/secret projects was publicly seen and known during the late 1940s and early 1950s. Photos and descriptions of many prototypes everywhere (no doubt part of a propaganda to impress the enemy, too), compared to the near void of today. Do we really believe that well orchestrated press releases could endanger such advanced weapons and give the enemy the lead? Don't they have so many other channels whereby to obtain leaked information? Revelation of the F-117 and B-2 did not result in an uprise of stealth aircraft in the air forces of the West's potential enemies, because although it was revealed what they were, what they were for, and how they achieved their goal, none of the sensitive information on the stealth paint technology itself, for instance, was ever revealed.

Plus I can't help but think that if all the Buzzards, Auroras, Senior Citizens, or whatever actually exists behind the veil, came to be acknowledged and even remotely shown, it would seriously give many of the countries who try to get cross with America a solid reason to cool down a bit, sort of a "so you wanna come and play?" thing... You don't want to contend with an enemy that can develop and fly highly advanced aircraft in a short timespan... But if that same country is known throughout the world to experience defense budget cut after budget cut, to cancel its most advanced "white" programs (A-12), and to be tangled in the quagmire of some distant war against enemies of incredibly smaller proportions, these countries will say: hey!? so THAT's America? Can't they do better than that? Let's kick their heels and see what happens.
 
Matej said:
I think that the primary problem of any LRS/NGB effort in the past 15 years was the money. Do they allocated any? I expect that there should be some technology demonstrations programs too, maybe also some subscale flying testbed but I am not aware of any official requests for the new bomber, combined with the required funding.

Well for a while LRS and the Quiet Supersonic programs were closely linked, and there were technology demonstrations that came from that. Other than QSP and SensorCraft, I don't know of any specific technologies that have been identified as enablers for LRS or NGB.
 
Stargazer2006 said:
Plus I can't help but think that if all the Buzzards, Auroras, Senior Citizens, or whatever actually exists behind the veil, came to be acknowledged and even remotely shown, it would seriously give many of the countries who try to get cross with America a solid reason to cool down a bit, sort of a "so you wanna come and play?"

Well, specifically as it applies to NGB, there are limitations. The B-2 was not a black program, it was always acknowledged that the ATB existed - because there are arms control implications when developing a strategic weapon. You can't develop a truly black offensive strategic weapon in the US without some real problems politically.
 
Triton said:
Artist's impression of Lockheed Martin aircraft concept painted by Wayne Begnaud. SSUCAS?

Source: Code One 2009 Volume 24, Number 2

Very similar NASA concept:
http://images.spaceref.com/news/2009/N+2.jpg
 
Early NG LRS, this time from the different angle.

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/03files/Blackswift_Spaceplane.html
 

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Normal starboard and backboard windows as on every aircraft
- or -
as like the small windows on each side of the rear compartment of the B-1B
a "day/night-indicator". ;D
 
Matej said:
Early NG LRS, this time from the different angle.

Image proportions are altered here. Here go untouched originals from NG site, 13 years back in time
 

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