US Navy OS-117 Outline Specification (S-2 Tracker rivals)

[Mark Nankivil]

Hi All -

Found this in the Vought Archives - their proposal for what ended up being the Grumman S2F Tracker.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Merged with old topic. Thanks to Mark for the info.

 

[Pioneer]

Wow Mark

Again my envy of your ability to be in the Vought Archives!
Looking at the drawings the V-368 design you have found, makes me think it would not have had much of a problem with stability, with those huge tail fins – although it begs to ask if these tall tail fins would have been foldable for storage below deck.

Keep them coming

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

Wow Mark

Again my envy of your ability to be in the Vought Archives!
Looking at the drawings the V-368 design you have found, makes me think it would not have had much of a problem with stability, with those huge tail fins – although it begs to ask if these tall tail fins would have been foldable for storage below deck.

Keep them coming

Regards
Pioneer

16' 6" met the hangar deck requirement. The big fins were required because the airplane was so short-coupled (see SB2C) in order to fit on an elevator.

 

[Pioneer]

With my time to myself (if you don't count three kids and the wife!), I have enjoyed reading through some of the older 'Secret Project' Forums

In doing so I found that we have not yet posted this!
Its the Vought XS2U-1W mock-up.
It also states -
Anti-sub aircraft design as XS2U-1W in competition with Grumman S2F and was later re-designated as XWU-1 (c.1955).
Work began on 1/25/50 and a contract was awarded for two prototypes with s/ns [133780/133781].
A mock-up was built but, during construction, difficulties were encountered with the folding wings.

I must say that looking at the mock-up and its multi-wing fold arrangement, I am somewhat amazed that with its years of carrier-based aircraft designing. Vought Engineers chose such an unusual and unorthodox arrangement!

To Mr Nankivil
As per your last great post of the Vought V-368 do you think they are the same aircraft?
If so Vought must have gone through a major redesign phase of its XS2U-1 mock-up - please note mock-ups roof mounted raydome and multi-wing folding arrangement - which the drawing of the V-368, you posted lack!

Your opinion on weather it is the same design please????

 

[Mark Nankivil]

I'd say this was an effort to meet the AEW design eventually filled by the Grumman E-1B Tracer. Can't think of a reason for a upper fuselage radome for an ASW mission (pre-satellite communications/GPS era). The wingfold reminds me of the Gannet so I don't think it is too odd. The fuselage sure looks like the V-368 which would make sense - decent design so why waste the design time and effort. Maybe Bill S or Tailspin Turtle has something on the AEW proposal? Bill S posted in another thread the V-404 proposal for what became Grumman E-2 Hawkeye.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[circle-5]

Factory model of North American Aviation D140 (ESO 4638), contender for the U.S. Navy BuAer OS117 (Tracker) program. ESO stands for Engineering Sales Order.

 

[Stargazer]

Beautiful! Thanks for sharing!

Any idea what NA- number that could be, anyone?

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

I'll do some research on this at Vought tomorrow, but looking at Bureau Numbers, it appears that Vought got a contract from the Navy for the XS2U-1W/XWU-1 as an AEW airplane (BuNos 133780/1) somewhat after Grumman got a contract for the second lot of production S2Fs (BuNos 133044-133388). It's possible that it was also initially a backup for the Grumman S2F, but that seems unlikely since that program proceeded to first flight and through development without any obvious hick-ups.

From the photographic evidence provided above, the Vought program clearly got as far as a mockup and was then cancelled in favor of a Grumman variation on the S2F/TF. The first WF (E-1) was created from a TF (C-1), BuNo 136242, taken directly off the production line; the first production WF was BuNo 145957. My guess is that the Navy realized that it was silly to have an entirely different airframe, landing gear, etc. for a mission application that required less than 100 airplanes (88 WFs were built in addition to the prototype), and opted instead to buy a variation of the TF, which was itself a variation of the S2F.

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

I didn't find anything on the S2U-1 or the S2U-1W/WU in the Vought archives today. I'll put it on my list of things to look for at the Washington Navy Yard and the National archives.

 

[Pioneer]

Please do!!!!!

Many thanks and fingers crossed

Regards
Pioneer

 

[hesham]

Also from Spangenberg site,the contenders were;

1) Grumman G-89
2) Vought V.368
3) Lockheed L-192-6
4) Curtiss Wright P.558 (ASW variant),P.588
5) Douglas D-603,D-604
6) Northrop N.60
7) Republic NP-52
8) Martin M-255
9) Boeing 490
10) McDonnell M-74
11) Goodyear GA-27
12) Cessna 306
13) North American E.O.S. 4638

 

[Stargazer]

RyanCrierie's invaluable work through the Spangenberg Index has made it possible to enrich what we knew of several US Navy competitions. Here is one of the most interesting ones, which ran in April 1950 and called for a VA class (attack) aircraft with ASW (anti-submarine warfare) capability.

Known contending designs were as follows:

• Boeing 490
• Central Aircraft Corp. (Burnelli) XNB-1
• Cessna 306
• Chase MS-11

• Consolidated Vultee (unknown designation)
• Curtiss-Wright P-588
• Douglas 603/A/B
• Douglas 604
• Goodyear GA-27A/-27B
• Grumman G-89
• Grumman G-91
• Lockheed L-192/-6
• Martin 255
• McDonnell 74
• North American ESO 4638
• Northrop N-60
• Republic NP-52
• Vought V-368/A

Other probable contenders (not listed specifically in the Index) were the Douglas 602 and Grumman G-90. Of course the winning design was the G-89 Sentinel, which was avaluated as the XS2F-1 and produced as the S-2 Tracker.

I suggest we use this new topic to feature any pictures of the above designs when they exist.

 

[Stargazer]

NORTH AMERICAN E.S.O. 4638

Last picture below is my own recreation using the second pic as a basis.

 

[Stargazer]

BOEING 490

 

[RyanC]

Goodyear GA-27A Drawing.

 

[Stargazer]

Ryan, you rock! This is a beautiful design and a great find!

 

[Pioneer]

Fantastic find Ryan
Thanks very much for put another piece of the pie of this puzzle in place!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Pioneer]

My apologies gents!

To much studying and not enough sleep

Thanks again!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[blackstar]

If you're like me (and I know I am), then you think that the Grumman S-2 Tracker was one of the coolest prop-driven US Navy ASW planes ever. There's a new book out on this aircraft:

http://www.warpaint-books.com/

I just got it. Although I have not read any of it yet, it's very heavily illustrated, with lots of color photos and artwork. It's a really nice piece of work. I ordered it online and it shipped from the UK to the US in under a week.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Merged topics... as it turns out, Pioneer was right...

 

[Pioneer]

Merged topics... as it turns out, Pioneer was right...

Hell I don`t hear that often!!!
Hey Overscan would you mind calling my wife and repeating these words ;D

But seriously - what was I right about ???

Regards
Pioneer

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

You said Republic's NP-52 was an S-2 Tracker rival. I said it was too early as the picture was published in AvWeek 6 years after the Tracker flew. I was wrong, as we see from the Spangenburg Archive materials.

 

[Pioneer]

Oh sweet!!

Did you call my wife?

 

[frank]

Just got my copy of Tony Buttler's latest ASP, covering bombers, attack & ASW a/c. While as usual, I can't get over some of the info, gives me some scratchbuilding & kitbashing projects, but, unless I've overlooked them, any ideas on why he would've left out a fairly obvious S-2 competitor like the Vought XS2U & even the lesser know Boeing 490 XF8B variant? I'm surprised particularly the XS2U was left out, not even an honorable mention. Again, I'm grateful for what's in there, but baffled by what was left out.

 

[Stargazer]

I'm surprised particularly the XS2U was left out, not even an honorable mention.

Really? That's strange indeed, if only because the S2U went as far as the full-scale mock-up stage, which can't be said of most of the other contenders. I also seem to recall it was the second prefered design of them all, but I could be wrong on that. One picture with a two-line caption underneath wouldn't have hurt, for sure.

 

[Pioneer]

Just got my copy of Tony Buttler's latest ASP, covering bombers, attack & ASW

Oh dam!!
One more month before I can see and read what you are talking about!! (My wife got me a copy for my birthday - but she is making me sweet until the day )
I was desperately hoping it was going to have drawings/pics and info on the Vought XS2U!!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Jos Heyman]

Here is your early birthday present - the XS2U.
Hope your wife does not get upset by me ruining her birthday present

 

[Stargazer]

Here is your early birthday present - the XS2U.
Hope your wife does not get upset by me ruining her birthday present

More about the XS2U-1 (Vought V-368) project earlier in this very thread:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,584.msg45797.html#msg45797

 

[Pioneer]

Here is your early birthday present - the XS2U.
Hope your wife does not get upset by me ruining her birthday present

Thank you Jos, for your kind thought and consideration - your gesture is well received and I am most grateful :-*

Regards
Pioneer

 

[hesham]

[Removed - scans are from Tony Buttler's American Secret Projects - Bombers, Attack and Anti-Submarine Aircraft - Admin]

 

[Stargazer]

Hi,

the Convair OS-117 proposal.

http://www.unicraft.biz/

Great unknown design!! Yet I'm surprised about this single-engined, trainer-like project being a contender of the Tracker... Looks more like a Navion-class type.

 

[Jemiba]

Looks a little bit similar to a Breguet Alizé powered by a radial, instead of
a turbo-prop.

 

[Pioneer]

Looks a little bit similar to a Breguet Alizé powered by a radial, instead of
a turbo-prop.

Ah I guess that's what I was subconsciously thinking, as it had an air of familiarity to it!!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Stargazer]

Although apparently only the Model 74 was considered in the Navy competition, a recently found McDonnell inhouse models list reveals that the OS-117 specification actually spawned FOUR distinct variants from McDonnell:

Model 74 (basic ASW design)
Model 74A (tail wheel version)
Model 74B (R-3350 engine version)
Model 75 (version with twin reciprocating engines, cancelled)

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to locate any image of these proposals. Perhaps Jared or Mark have something?

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Greetings All -

Attached are photos of the McDonnell Model 74 ASW proposal from the Gerald Balzer Collection.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Stargazer]

Mark, you are my hero!!! ;D

 

[famvburg]

Hoping I don't sound ungrateful, for the pics of what we do see, any chance of seeing what the rest of the a/c looks like?

Greetings All -

Attached are photos of the McDonnell Model 74 ASW proposal from the Gerald Balzer Collection.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Mark Nankivil]

If I had it, I'd post it. Will be back to peruse more of the collection and if I find it, I'll be sure to post it.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[nugo]

Hi All!
As to whether these projects Grumman Design 91 or ?