US NAVY ATA (Advanced Tactical Aircraft) program: A-12 Avenger II & its rivals

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Nice stuff Bill. Check my email.

 

[flateric]

Here are some A-12 drawings I got from Gary J. an ex-Navy AD buddy of mine from Fort Worth.

Oh, my. Today is kinda Xmas over whole subtopic or I've missed something? Thanks!

 

[flateric]

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1992/1992%20-%200298.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1992/1992%20-%200299.html

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Not very detailed (!) NASA A-12 spin model.



http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/historic/20-Foot_Spin_Tunnel_(645)_Models_and_Tests_A-M#A-12_Avenger

 

[InvisibleDefender]

Here are some A-12 drawings I got from Gary J. an ex-Navy AD buddy of mine from Fort Worth. I don't know if they have been posted before but someone was looking for a cutaway.

Thanks for posting those Bill. I've had them (and some other things) for well over a decade, but I'd never seen them anywhere else so I've been hesitant to share them.

 

[InvisibleDefender]

Not very detailed (!) NASA A-12 spin model.

http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/historic/20-Foot_Spin_Tunnel_(645)_Models_and_Tests_A-M#A-12_Avenger

Thanks for posting those, I had never, ever seen them before.

 

[Stargazer]

I'd never seen them anywhere else so I've been hesitant to share them.

Not that they reveal much more about the shape than we already knew, mind you...

 

[Mr London 24/7]

GAO Report - "Opportunities to Apply A-12 Research, Knowledge, and Technologies"

According to Navy officials, progress was made toward building the first A-12. Both contractors had completed about 99 percent of the engineering drawings and had fabricated about 85 percent of the tools needed to manufacture A-12 parts. The contractors had manufactured a sufficient number of some parts to meet the requirements for the first 14 aircraft

http://www.gao.gov/assets/220/215882.pdf

 

[InvisibleDefender]

That's old news and don't read too much into it. There are a lot of small parts in airplanes!

 

[flateric]

"sufficient number of some parts" LOLd
nuts'n'bolts I guess?

ATA story would be great script basis for a remake of Pentagon Wars

 

[Bill S]

A little bit of news for you guys. The A-12 Avenger mockup is going to be loaned to the Veterans Memorial Air Park at Ft Worth Meacham Field and will be moving that way the end of June 2013.


bill


http://www.veteransmemorialairpark.com/home1.aspx

 

[Bill S]

Good News on the A-12 Avenger II mock up. The end of June 2013 it is going on loan to the Veterans Memorial Air Park at Ft Worth Meacham Field.


bill


http://www.veteransmemorialairpark.com/home1.aspx

 

[Bill S]

The A-12 Avenger II mockup has arrived at Veterans Memorial Air Park in Fort Worth Texas!

http://www.veteransmemorialairpark.com/home1.aspx


Here are some picture highlights with the rest on my photobucket


http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Phantomologist/library/A-12%20Avenger%20II%20Mockup%20Arrival%20VMAP


Enjoy!


bill

 

[Stargazer]

Thanks a lot Bill! Hope they will restore it and place it in a nice display setting...

 

[flateric]

Absolutely great news! Thanks!!

 

[GTX]

Might have to schedule a visit next time I am in town...

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Those intake baffles look very highly angled and bad for airflow.

 

[allysonca]

I've attached a couple of pictures of an actual in-house A-12 that I received from my recently passed friend's family. He was the source of the Fish and Kingfish models that you may have seen as well as the recently posted unknown transport. This particular model looks to be 1/48th scale. The finished you see here that appears to be a hollow cast or thermoform material. I've one blank that is sold casting resin (missing inlets) with a vac canopy that he never finished. My friend was a project engineer and was a great scrounger for models over the years. Also attached is a large unfinished mock up that is wood with plastic detailing. There is a small knob on the starboard side that opens a large door to expose the wing interior. The port side lacks a door and the interior you see is a "take a guess". There is only one pilot sitting in what looks to be a side by side config. It has a center canopy frame that that extends full forward unlike the finished model. It's BIG, at 32 inches. Back is open framework not unlike a flying model. Got trades? In the collection there were also quite a few wonderful in-house 40th scale F-16's and one large JSF that I will post if I can find an appropriate forum.

 

[hesham]

Nice pictures Allysonca.

 

[FighterJock]

Nice models. A great pity that the A-12 never flew, another plane that got cancelled by cost over runs and perhaps the politics of the day much like the TSR2, makes you think what the aircraft carriers would look like had the A-12 made it to the prototype stage and got produced?

 

[Sundog]

Actually, based on what I've read lately on LO, I don't think it would have been that stealthy with the straight trailing edge. I think they would have had serious problems. But it's a program that was doomed from the start by wishful thinking.

Nice models though. I like the A-12's aesthetics in both tandem and side by side seating versions.

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

Very nice models! I'd so love to call dibs on them! And the Skyray in the first shot as well! ;D

 

[Bill S]

The mockup of the engine came along with the A-12 it was covered with a tarp on delivery day, but on display now.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Great photos.

 

[GTX]

cutaway done by one of our members (MC72):

 

[Sundog]

It looks like he used Tim "Piglet" Conrad's A-12 from Flight Simulator for the image in the lower right corner.

 

[sferrin]

Interesting that they show the B83 rather than the B61.

 

[fightingirish]

Picture:

<title> | Code One Magazine</title>

www.codeonemagazine.com

A full-size mockup of the A-12 Avenger left Air Force Plant 4 on 28 June after having been stored on the north end of the plant for many years. The A-12 program was cancelled in January 1991. The mockup was the only one of its type constructed. The model is to be restored and displayed at Veterans Memorial Air Park, which is located on the south end of Meacham Field Airport in north Fort Worth.

 

[flateric]

Die unendliche Geschichte

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-navy-jet-suit-20140125,0,4137919.story

 

[Stargazer]

Die unendliche Geschichte
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-navy-jet-suit-20140125,0,4137919.story

Interesting, thanks.


Uncanny though that while Boeing is liable for the defunct McDonnell Douglas company which they took over, General Dynamics is still quoted as an active manufacturer all through the article. I thought GD's aircraft assets had all been taken over by Lockheed. Was I wrong?

 

[JFC Fuller]

Uncanny though that while Boeing is liable for the defunct McDonnell Douglas company which they took over, General Dynamics is still quoted as an active manufacturer all through the article. I thought GD's aircraft assets had all been taken over by Lockheed. Was I wrong?

Boeing and MDD were technically merged so the new entity would have to carry the responsibility for any ongoing legal disputes. LM only bought a division of GD and probably wouldn't have touched it unless GD agreed to retain the legal disputes (which it would have done de-facto anyway as it would have been GD as the contract signatory in the original A-12 programme). Takes me back though, LM apparently out-bid NG for the GD Forth Worth division.

 

[F-14D]

[

Boeing and MDD were technically merged so the new entity would have to carry the responsibility for any ongoing legal disputes. LM only bought a division of GD and probably wouldn't have touched it unless GD agreed to retain the legal disputes (which it would have done de-facto anyway as it would have been GD as the contract signatory in the original A-12 programme). Takes me back though, LM apparently out-bid NG for the GD Forth Worth division.

A number of posts here and info elsewhere discuss this last point. It was not so much that LM outbid Northrop and Grumman (they were separate companies then). It was that N&G said the plane couldn't be built for what the Navy wanted to pay (Navy tried to get them to reduce their bid), and they weren't wiling to risk their companies on a fixed price development contract (a type that makes the program manger look good on paper but almost always goes bad on large program). What N & G ended up doing was to make their final offer a cost plus proposal, which they knew would be rejected. That got them eliminated from the competition, which is what they wanted, in a way that was a graceful out and wouldn't make the Navy/DoD look bad (don't want to piss off someone who may be offering other contracts in the future). Navy kept on negotiating with GD/MDD without revealing that the other team had left because they said the plane couldn't be built for the gov't's estimate.

LM was not involved, the other team was General Dynamics and MDD. Lockheed wanted to stay as far away as possible from the ATA competition. As was stated earlier, Boeing ate MDD, and got its liabilities as well as its assets. LM in its later acquisition did not pick up the part of GD that was liable for the ATA.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I think he (JFCF/SLL) was referring to the sale of the enterprise GDFW by GD not the ATA program contract award. With Lockheed (1993 pre LM merger) outbidding Northrop (pre NG too) to buy GDFW from GD.

 

[F-14D]

I think he (JFCF/SLL) was referring to the sale of the enterprise GDFW by GD not the ATA program contract award. With Lockheed (1993 pre LM merger) outbidding Northrop (pre NG too) to buy GDFW from GD.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Good Day All -

I had the opportunity to stop by the Fort Worth Aviation Museum a couple of weeks ago and photograph the A-12 mock up that is now in their care. They also have an engine/exhaust system mock up as well.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Mark Nankivil]

...and a few more....

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Stargazer]

Wow! Splendid pics, Mark. You're spoiling us!

 

[flateric]

thank you, Mark!

 

[Sundog]

Thanks Mark, I had no idea the mockup had so much detail.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Thanks - she'll look great when fully restored! Mark