US double ended Missile Cruiser conversions

The US Navy kept its missile cruiser conversions through the 1970s so got good use out of

2x Boston

3xAlbany

6xSpringfield

they were followed by purpose built ships

1x Long Beach

6x Leahy

1x Bainbridge

2x California

4x Virginia

The double enders were unique to the USN and Soviet Navy.
 
They are costly - and require a relatively large hulls to be practical.

The smallest double-ender I can think of off hand is the Leahy class at 7,800 tons full load; on the other hand, to get a double-ender that small it also had no guns. And the last true double-ender major combatant that I can think of was the Ticonderoga-class.

Part of the reason that building double-ended appears to have stopped is that Vertical Launch Systems means you're never stuck with missiles that can't fire in a certain direction because the launcher doesn't twist that far; you just have to evenly distribute your fire control systems which is much easier than doing that for missiles. Also, most navies have effectively decided that you're never going to be attacked from multiple directions by anything that requires you to use your big gun on them, and it's kind of difficult to build a double-ended warship with only one gun. (not impossible, though - you could put your one gun amidships like the Perry-class... ;-))
 
Also the embodiment of ugliness, incdentally...

Then you yet to see the USN Zumwalt the RN Daring (Type 45) or the Swedish Visby classes
This reminds me of people who think the 5th gen aircraft are ugly because they don't look like F-104s or Mirages. I'll take "more effective" over "looks pretty" all day long.
A great man once said : "A beautiful plane is a plane that flies well" how true is this statement in an era where all flying machines would fall out of the sky without computers ? Your guess is as good as mine...
 
The smallest double-ender I can think of off hand is the Leahy class at 7,800 tons full load; on the other hand, to get a double-ender that small it also had no guns. And the last true double-ender major combatant that I can think of was the Ticonderoga-class.

In terms of ships actually built, you have to look at the Soviets for smaller double-enders. The KASHINs (Project 61) had fore and aft SA-N-1 on about 4300 tons displacement, and the KRESTAs (Project 1134) had the same fore and aft SA-N-1 but with more missiles on about 7600 tons.

In proposed ships, there was a version of DG/AEGIS with two Mk 13 launchers on 6160 tons.
 
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A great man once said : "A beautiful plane is a plane that flies well" how true is this statement in an era where all flying machines would fall out of the sky without computers ? Your guess is as good as mine...

I don't believe any plane to enter US service since the 1960s has been considered a dud by the pilots who've actually flown them - the Tomcat, of all things, probably comes the closest given how infamous its early engines were. Actual pilots have nothing but praise for whatever their new ride is most of the time, and the exceptions are usually obvious - like some of the early disaster jets from the 50s where they stopped production after a couple of squadrons.

Anyone who goes "it sucks now, there's no challenge in flying with the computer doing all the work" is probably not an actual pilot who has to do it for a living, or at least not anymore. (I'm seeing this sort of thing a lot in certain sim communities, like truck sim - "this truck sucks, I can't put an 18-speed Eaton Fuller manual in it so I can show off how good I am at floating gears" goes the "hardcore simmer"; the real truck driver goes "I just got my first truck with a 12-speed automated manual and I'm never going back" because he's not mentally exhausted after driving a full shift anymore.)
 
Looking at these conversions they always looked especially unstable with that very tall superstructure.
That superstructure is mostly aluminum, so it's not as heavy as it looks.

Burns way too nicely when a submarine being a joker manages to get a flare stuck up there, though... oops! The old Skipjack class boats would roll pretty dramatically in a turn, which gave their 3" launcher more elevation. Enough to get that flare up onto a carrier flight deck or up into the masts of a small target (I mean carrier escort).
 
A great man once said : "A beautiful plane is a plane that flies well" how true is this statement in an era where all flying machines would fall out of the sky without computers ? Your guess is as good as mine...

I don't believe any plane to enter US service since the 1960s has been considered a dud by the pilots who've actually flown them - the Tomcat, of all things, probably comes the closest given how infamous its early engines were. Actual pilots have nothing but praise for whatever their new ride is most of the time, and the exceptions are usually obvious - like some of the early disaster jets from the 50s where they stopped production after a couple of squadrons.

Anyone who goes "it sucks now, there's no challenge in flying with the computer doing all the work" is probably not an actual pilot who has to do it for a living, or at least not anymore. (I'm seeing this sort of thing a lot in certain sim communities, like truck sim - "this truck sucks, I can't put an 18-speed Eaton Fuller manual in it so I can show off how good I am at floating gears" goes the "hardcore simmer"; the real truck driver goes "I just got my first truck with a 12-speed automated manual and I'm never going back" because he's not mentally exhausted after driving a full shift anymore.)
My statement was more related to the fact that fighter design's focus has shifted dramatically from "silhouette" (one must comprehend : aerodynamics and motorisation) to avionics and weapons systems, all of this of course corresponding to the advent of moore's law, absurdly powerful sensors etc ... Moreover, Maneuverability has become somewhat incidental in a battlespace where shots are fired from 100+ km away. Of course pilots see all steps taken to improve this avionic as an improvement considering that their job isn't really to fly anymore as much as monitor an increasingly complex ensemble of sensors, platforms, and whatnot.
 
I'd argue silhouette is the most serious design factor of any aircraft from any age tbh. All of them before were chasing aerodynamics or speed, which is determined by form, prior to the 1970's. Afterwards, they chased instantaneous and sustained turn rates, which is determined by form. Later, from the 1990's to now, they are chasing radar observability. Radar signature is also determined by form.

When fighter planes start chasing infrared signature management and range they will probably end up looking like B-2s I guess. That's one of the things that isn't determined by the form of the aircraft, but rather merely by its speed. Of course, aerodynamic performance is literally a form of shape, so planes will converge on looking similar yet again.

Maneuverability stopped being important not when missiles became 100+ km range, which was in the 1960's, it was when they became all-aspect and imaging infrared, which was in the 1990's. For instance, Python IV obviates the need for maneuver because it can be fired high off boresight and engage targets at BVR distance (in typical airs, a little >15 km).

And yeah, there's relatively little reason to train pilots for BFM. It still happens because ROE can be restrictive and the general lack of long range television cameras and infrared sensors for BVR VID is a definite problem for most advanced tactical fighters. That's why they have external pods like ATFLIR.
 
I'd argue silhouette is the most serious design factor of any aircraft from any age tbh. All of them before were chasing aerodynamics or speed, which is determined by form, prior to the 1970's. Afterwards, they chased instantaneous and sustained turn rates, which is determined by form. Later, from the 1990's to now, they are chasing radar observability. Radar signature is also determined by form.

When fighter planes start chasing infrared signature management and range they will probably end up looking like B-2s I guess. That's one of the things that isn't determined by the form of the aircraft, but rather merely by its speed. Of course, aerodynamic performance is literally a form of shape, so planes will converge on looking similar yet again.

Maneuverability stopped being important not when missiles became 100+ km range, which was in the 1960's, it was when they became all-aspect and imaging infrared, which was in the 1990's. For instance, Python IV obviates the need for maneuver because it can be fired high off boresight and engage targets at BVR distance (in typical airs, a little >15 km).

And yeah, there's relatively little reason to train pilots for BFM. It still happens because ROE can be restrictive and the general lack of long range television cameras and infrared sensors for BVR VID is a definite problem for most advanced tactical fighters. That's why they have external pods like ATFLIR.
While I mostly agree with you, I don't think we will ever see a fighter in the flying wing planform. The +7 or +9 gee maneuvering requirements cause issues with how flying wings maneuver.

I'm expecting a shape more like the YF-23. Wing planform may change again, and may end up with either the X-47 Cranked Flying Wing or a large delta wing. But even the Lockheed teaser art for NGAD looks like the aft end of the YF-23!
 
Also the embodiment of ugliness, incdentally...

Then you yet to see the USN Zumwalt the RN Daring (Type 45) or the Swedish Visby classes
This reminds me of people who think the 5th gen aircraft are ugly because they don't look like F-104s or Mirages. I'll take "more effective" over "looks pretty" all day long.
Honestly, I think the F-22 looks damn good. Sexy even. The F-35 OTOH...
I think that the F-35 looks better than the F-22. Battle penguin over murder goose any day of the week.
 
A great man once said : "A beautiful plane is a plane that flies well" how true is this statement in an era where all flying machines would fall out of the sky without computers ? Your guess is as good as mine...

I don't believe any plane to enter US service since the 1960s has been considered a dud by the pilots who've actually flown them - the Tomcat, of all things, probably comes the closest given how infamous its early engines were. Actual pilots have nothing but praise for whatever their new ride is most of the time, and the exceptions are usually obvious - like some of the early disaster jets from the 50s where they stopped production after a couple of squadrons.

Anyone who goes "it sucks now, there's no challenge in flying with the computer doing all the work" is probably not an actual pilot who has to do it for a living, or at least not anymore. (I'm seeing this sort of thing a lot in certain sim communities, like truck sim - "this truck sucks, I can't put an 18-speed Eaton Fuller manual in it so I can show off how good I am at floating gears" goes the "hardcore simmer"; the real truck driver goes "I just got my first truck with a 12-speed automated manual and I'm never going back" because he's not mentally exhausted after driving a full shift anymore.)
My statement was more related to the fact that fighter design's focus has shifted dramatically from "silhouette" (one must comprehend : aerodynamics and motorisation) to avionics and weapons systems, all of this of course corresponding to the advent of moore's law, absurdly powerful sensors etc ... Moreover, Maneuverability has become somewhat incidental in a battlespace where shots are fired from 100+ km away. Of course pilots see all steps taken to improve this avionic as an improvement considering that their job isn't really to fly anymore as much as monitor an increasingly complex ensemble of sensors, platforms, and whatnot.
Wow.
 
Proposed sketches of the conversion of various cruiser hulls for SCB-173. The Two Talos-Regulus II design on a Baltimore hull was selected, with fitting of Regulus II being deferred, and a number of other changes were also made, including the replacement of the conventional masts with Macks, and the addition of Tartar.

Source: The "3-T" Programme Part 2, Norman Friedman, Warship Volume VI

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And these drawings show me what I've suspected that the Albanies were designed with twin 3"/50 RF guns in mind and not the old and likely by that time useless 5"/38 Mark 12 guns.
 
And these drawings show me what I've suspected that the Albanies were designed with twin 3"/50 RF guns in mind and not the old and likely by that time useless 5"/38 Mark 12 guns.
3"/70s, maybe.

The 3"/50s were a drop in replacement for the 40mm Bofors, so that the medium AA guns could be fitted with radar proximity fuzed shells.

5"/38s are best replaced with a Mk11 or Mk13 launcher with 40 missiles in the magazine, preferentially the Mk13 due to higher rate of fire. Mk11s could only fire every 20seconds, while a Mk13 could fire every 8 seconds. Replacing the twin 5"/38 Mk12 with a single 5"/54 Mk42 is another option, which gives better gun range and higher rate of fire.


Yes, but had the conversions been based upon the Cleveland, Oregon City, Worcester or Des Moines class hulls that were also investigated the class would have had different names.
I would have hoped that the Des Moines would not have been converted to missile-primary cruisers. They were too useful as gun cruisers for shore bombardment.

I would preferentially convert all the light cruisers and the Baltimore and ORCity heavies to pure CGs, and build a few more Des Moines.

Des Moines would replace the 4x side 5" turrets with Mk13 launchers, and the centerline 5"/38 twin turrets with a single 5"/54 Mk42. Illuminators for the Mk13 get dropped into two of the 40mm Bofors tubs, one illuminator for each launcher. And, if I'm feeling evil, I stick a pair of BPDMS Sea Sparrow launchers into Bofors tubs on each side while I'm at it, with their illuminators in a couple more Bofors tubs. Iowas would be much the same, probably 3x Mk13s per side and 2x 5"/54 Mk42 per side, just no Sea Sparrows because the Mk29 box can't survive the 16" muzzle blast.
 
3"/70s, maybe.

The 3"/50s were a drop in replacement for the 40mm Bofors, so that the medium AA guns could be fitted with radar proximity fuzed shells.

5"/38s are best replaced with a Mk11 or Mk13 launcher with 40 missiles in the magazine, preferentially the Mk13 due to higher rate of fire. Mk11s could only fire every 20seconds, while a Mk13 could fire every 8 seconds. Replacing the twin 5"/38 Mk12 with a single 5"/54 Mk42 is another option, which gives better gun range and higher rate of fire.

I would have hoped that the Des Moines would not have been converted to missile-primary cruisers. They were too useful as gun cruisers for shore bombardment.

I would preferentially convert all the light cruisers and the Baltimore and ORCity heavies to pure CGs, and build a few more Des Moines.

Des Moines would replace the 4x side 5" turrets with Mk13 launchers, and the centerline 5"/38 twin turrets with a single 5"/54 Mk42. Illuminators for the Mk13 get dropped into two of the 40mm Bofors tubs, one illuminator for each launcher. And, if I'm feeling evil, I stick a pair of BPDMS Sea Sparrow launchers into Bofors tubs on each side while I'm at it, with their illuminators in a couple more Bofors tubs. Iowas would be much the same, probably 3x Mk13s per side and 2x 5"/54 Mk42 per side, just no Sea Sparrows because the Mk29 box can't survive the 16" muzzle blast.
The designs are literally posted in this thread. There would be no 3"/70, as this was after they had turned out to be technical failures, no 5"/54 Mk 42s, and the Tartar launchers would have been Mk 11s, as these ships were planned to be ordered between FY58 and FY60, and the Mk 11 was the launcher that was fitted to the Albany class, of which these were the preliminary designs for. First Mk 13s were fitted to Charles F Admas class destroyers ordered from FY 59 onwards, and despite the fact that two of the Albany conversions were pushed back to FY59, none were fitted with the Mk 13.

BPDMS Sea Sparrow was also too late, and didn't find it's way onto a ship in prototype form until 1967, and did not enter widespread service into the 1970s.
 
3"/70's development was slow and troublesome and only a few warships got equipped with it when they became avaiable. The 3"/50 RF Mark 22 twins were put on many wsrship classes post war and the ones did not recieve it likely was due to the production could not keep up with the ships built. Albany in the end had 2x1 5"/38 Mark 12's despite the conversion done in the late 60's. I don't understand your saying that tge 5" should be rrplaced by Tartar launchers. The Albanies guns were on a platform on both sides of the aft mast-funnel / Mack not where the original 5" guns were.


The twin Tartars were indeed located around where the front wing 5" twin turrets were originaly located. But the new guns are not.

I presume they chose the 5"/38's because they were wanted these cruisers commissioned ASAP and the 3"/50's were not avaiable and would had delayed the completion of the ships. (I know there were tons and tons of 5"/38 guns produced for every warship in the USN) Still I don't know why they were not recieved them later. USS Northapton CC-1 originally finished with 3"/50's and when the 3"/70's were produced then she recieved those turrets as originally intended.
 
Worth pointing out the radar fits for these ships as planned, and the Albany class which actually emerged are notably different.

The large SPS-2 3D radar (which only appeared onboard Northampton (CLC-1) and Little Rock (CLG-4) was replaced on the Albany class when they entered service by a pair of SPS-30 Height Finders operating in concert with an SPS-37 or -43, with the latter essentially taking the palace atop the mainmast reserved for the SPS-26 and TACAN Beacon. The SPS-26 has been replaced by it's successor the SPS-39, and has been moved along with the TACAN Beacon to a position atop the foremast, replacing the SPS-29 of the original design which has been removed from the design entirely. The location of the SPS-10 is unchanged.

Interestingly these changes mostly seem to have taken place after the shift to macks (with the exception of moving the TACAN Beacon to the foremast) as the inboard profile in Norman Friedman's US Cruisers of the Albany class seem to show the original radar of the preliminary designs, with the shape of the radar aerials being similar in shape to those on the sketches posted above. The foremast (or foremack?) appears to show SPS-10, TACAN and SPS-29, with an SPS-26 atop the mainmast (or mainmack?), with the SPS-2 atop a small stub mast just forward of the aft group of missile guidance radars, a similar location to the position to the SPS-2 on Little Rock (CLG-4), and the location of the aft-most SPS-30 on the Albany class.

The "CW Illuminators" that appear on all the preliminary designs have disappeared entirely. Does anyone know what they would have been intended for?
 
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The "CW Illuminators" that appear on all the preliminary designs have disappeared entirely. Does anyone know what they would have been intended for?

They were a late addition to Talos. I think they were actually fitted in all the Talos ships but don't always get called out in specs because they were relatively small and may not have had separate AN/ designations.

 
Here is the drawing set of USS Chicago from The Floating Drydock site:
Note it's radar/mast/top of the superstructure setup is wrong.
This is after the SCB 002.66 modernisation in FY66, which resulted in the replacement of SPS-39 with SPS-48, and the removal of the forward SPS-30.
 
Cleveland class CLG (Terrier).jpg
SOURCE: Friedman, Norman. "The '3-T' Programme." Warship, edited by John Arthur Roberts, Volume VI, Conway Maritime Press, 1982. Retrieved from https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...missile-cruiser-conversions.34375/post-618829

If the Galveston and Providence class guided-missile cruiser conversions had been constructed to the above double-ended twin Mark 9 Terrier GMLS configuration, it is likely the Regulus II launchers and hangers would have been removed from the final design. The ASROC launcher and supporting superstructure could have been moved forward to between the funnels. The Galveston / Providence class CLGs would have resembled smaller versions of the Albany class CGs, but with the Terrier instead of Talos and without the Tartar.

Here's a thought: Would the double-ended Galveston / Providence class CLGs have enough space amidships for at least four Polaris missile launch tubes, just like the Italian Navy's Giuseppe Garibaldi?
Giuseppe Garibaldi with Polaris.jpg
 
For informative purposes, here are the USS Boston as looked like in around 1965:
dg3bi86-0487069f-aeaf-4462-a8ea-3efd356c2e70.png

And the USS Albany in around 1972:
dgox7ek-309e6d7c-6318-468b-861a-2b0124b00e97.png
 
If the Galveston and Providence class guided-missile cruiser conversions had been constructed to the above double-ended twin Mark 9 Terrier GMLS configuration, it is likely the Regulus II launchers and hangers would have been removed from the final design. The ASROC launcher and supporting superstructure could have been moved forward to between the funnels. The Galveston / Providence class CLGs would have resembled smaller versions of the Albany class CGs, but with the Terrier instead of Talos and without the Tartar.

The above Cleveland conversion was not an alternative to the Galveston or Providence class CLGs, it was part of studies for SCB 173, i.e. what became the Albany class. Cleveland hulls were rejected for any further conversions as a result of these studies, due to limited hull volume and the need to relocate the CIC below the protective deck.
 
Here's a thought: Would the double-ended Galveston / Providence class CLGs have enough space amidships for at least four Polaris missile launch tubes, just like the Italian Navy's Giuseppe Garibaldi?
Not likely, the tubes would have gone down into the engine rooms without building a 2-deck-tall space between the funnels.
 
The above Cleveland conversion was not an alternative to the Galveston or Providence class CLGs, it was part of studies for SCB 173, i.e. what became the Albany class. Cleveland hulls were rejected for any further conversions as a result of these studies, due to limited hull volume and the need to relocate the CIC below the protective deck.
Given the limited hull volume of the Cleveland class CLs as you mentioned, I can understand why the Galveston / Providence class CLGs went for the Mark 7 Talos GMLS or Mark 9 Terrier GMLS with their entire magazine above the main deck level at the aft.
Mark 7 Talos GMLS.png Mark 9 Terrier GMLS.png

When the U.S. Navy did the Galveston / Providence class CLG conversions under SCB 140 / 140A and SCB 146 / 146A, was there ever consideration to construct them as double-ended missile cruisers by adding another Mark 7 or Mark 9 GMLS at the fore?
 
When the U.S. Navy did the Galveston / Providence class CLG conversions under SCB 140 / 140A and SCB 146 / 146A, was there ever consideration to construct them as double-ended missile cruisers by adding another Mark 7 or Mark 9 GMLS at the fore?

They were always intended to be austere conversions to increase the number of missile-armed ships within the fleet.

Plans for double-ended ships began in 1956 for the FY58 building program (hence the Albany-class Cruisers and Leahy-class frigates).
 
Given the limited hull volume of the Cleveland class CLs as you mentioned, I can understand why the Galveston / Providence class CLGs went for the Mark 7 Talos GMLS or Mark 9 Terrier GMLS with their entire magazine above the main deck level at the aft.
View attachment 732482View attachment 732483

When the U.S. Navy did the Galveston / Providence class CLG conversions under SCB 140 / 140A and SCB 146 / 146A, was there ever consideration to construct them as double-ended missile cruisers by adding another Mark 7 or Mark 9 GMLS at the fore?

Anybody who has the chance should go to the Buffalo Naval and Serviceman's Park and Museum and see the USS Little Rock. You can go in that magazine and it is a huge space. It's a little hard to imagine it full of missiles, but that must have been impressive in the day.

There is a YouTube channel by one of the curators and he has done a number of videos in that space. That gives you a bit of understanding of it. I wish that somebody would do an animation showing how the missile magazine worked and how they moved around the missiles and boosters.
 

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