Ukrainian Tank Options

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I have been pondering the question of which Western tanks to send to Ukraine quite a lot lately. In my opinion, the ideal option would be to send the M1 Abrams, some Leopard 2s and a whole bunch of Leopard 1A5s and M60A3s, as these are the only widely available platforms. However, as the Americans seem to be adamant in their refusal to provide the Abrams (this also seems to finally have been accepted in Berlin, too), the only viable option seems to be to send a hodgepodge of European designs to Ukraine and also to reduce the readines of European armies for some years which could only be compensated by temporary deployments (depending on the speed of delivery of replacement systems this would extend to anywhere from 2025 to 2030) of additional American units (maybe an armoured brigade both in Lithuania and in Finland). As Greece, Turkey and non-European states are unlikely to donate any Western tanks in their inventories, the following is what I have come up with:

An armoured division made up of Leopard 2s:
- an armoured brigade of three batallions of Leopard 2A6s (about 60 from Bundeswehr and an equal number from the Spanish army plus the remaining 19 2A5s of the German army and about 40 Polish 2A5s upgraded to 2A6 standard ASAP, spares would have to come from existing German and Spanish units), a batallion of CV9040s, a battery of Italian M109Ls, a battery of 2S1 Gvozdikas, a battery of BM-21 Grads or RM-22s, logistics batallion, Bergepanzer 3s, Brückenpanzer Biebers, Pionierpanzer 2s etc.
-two mechanised infantry brigades made of a batallion of Leopard 2A4s (Finland could donate up to 40 if we temporarily give up independent tank companies in our wartime ORBAT, 40 from Poland, 10 from Spain, 20 from Norway and 20 from Canada, additional spares could be obtained by refurbishing the vehicles in bad condition in Spanish depots and in German industry hands), a batallion of Marder 1A3s (this would likely require an additional 80 Marders being donated by Germany meaning a deterioration also of the Panzergrenadier units' readiness unless Puma can be fixed quickly and deliveries expedited), two batallions equipped with M113s/YPR-765s, a battery of M109s, a battery of 2S1 Gvozdikas, a battery of BM-21 Grads or RM-22s, a logistics batallion, appropriate armoured recovery vehicles (most likely Bergepanzer 2s), bridging vehicles (most likely Biebers) and armoured engineer vehicles) each
-divisional artillery batteries of 18 PzH-2000s, 18 M110s (not yet pledged to Ukraine but there should be hundreds potentially available and 8 inch artillery could be very useful in pounding Russian defensive lines) and BM-27 Uragans or Burevyjs
-divisional AA-batteries of 18 Gepard 1A2s (Germany is apparently negotiating with Qatar to buy back its Gepard 1A2s for delivery to Ukraine), Crotale NGs and Buk M1s (firing RIM-7s/Aspides)
-a reconnaisance regiment made of a batallion of Leopard 1A5s (hundreds are potentially available in industry hands in Germany and Belgium, and Greece and Chile might just give up some of their Leopard 1s for a good deal with future Leopard 2A7 acquisition) and a batallion of Fenneks
-divisional logistics, repair and engineering units
I would place this division on the Zaporižžja front.

An armoured division made up of Challenger 1s and 2s - replacing tank losses in this division would be challenging
- an armoured brigade made up of three regiments of Challenger 1s (Jordan is geting rid of its Challenger 1s. These are apparently in bad shape, so significant refurbishing is required. If any are still stored in the UK, these should also be sent.), a batallion of M2A2ODS Bradleys, a battery of AS-90s, a battery of 2S1 Gvozdikas, a battery of BM-21 Grads or RM-22s, a logistics batallion, CRARRVs, Titans and Trojans
-two mechanised brigades made up of a regiment of either Challenger 1s or Challenger 2s (this would require the UK to donate practically speaking all of the Challenger 2s not destined to be upgraded to Challenger 3s probably making the spares situation of the latter critical rather quickly), a batallion of Warriors (UK has not yet pledged these - this would likely require the quick fixing of the Ajax and expedited deliveries), two batallions of Bulldogs/M113s, a battery of M109s, a battery of 2S1 Gvozdikas, a battery of BM-21 Grads or RM-22s, a logistics batallion, CRARRVs, Titans and Trojans each
-divisional artillery batteries made of 18 Krabs, 18 M110s and BM-27 Uragans or Burevyjs
-divisional AA-batteries made up of 18 Gepard 1A2s or 18 ZSU-23-4MP Białas (not yet provided but I would see these as a possibility), Stormer HVMs, OSA-AKM-P1s and Buk M1s (firing RIM-7s/Aspides)
-a reconnaisance regiment made of a batallion of FV107 Scimitars (not yet pledged by the UK but likely in the future IMO) and a batallion of HMMVWs
-divisional logistics, repair and engineering units
I would place this division on the Donets'k front (the heavy armour of both Challengers would be very helpful breaking through heavily fortified lines and in the many urban areas of Southern Donbas)


An armoured division made up of Leclercs and M60A3s
-an armoured brigade made up of three batallions of Leclercs (France is considering donating some Leclercs and UAE is rumoured to be planning to replace at least some of its Leclercs - this would be possible if France donated the 22 of its Leclercs not to be updated to the XLR standard and bought back the UAE Leclercs for delivery to Ukraine), a batallion of M2A2ODS Bradleys, a battery of M109A6s, a battery of 2S1 Gvozdikas, a battery of BM-21 Grads or RM-22s, a logistics batallion, Bergepanzer 2s, Biebers and armoured engineer vehicles
-two mechanised infantry brigades made up of a batallion of M60A3s (these could be bought back from Egypt and there might still be some stored vehicles in Europe and the US), a batallion of M2A2 ODS Bradleys (I am assuming here that the US is going to deliver more Bradleys in the future), two batallions of M113s, a battery of M109s, a battery of 2S1 Gvozdikas, a battery of BM-21s and RM-22s, a logistics batallion and M88s, bridging vehicles and armoured engineer vehicles
-divisional artillery batteries made up of 18 CAESARs, 18 M110s, and BM-27 Uragans or Burevyjs
-divisional AA-batteries made up of 18 Gepard 1A2s, Crotale NGs and Buk M1s (firing RIM-7s/Aspides)
-a reconnaisance regiment made up of a batallion of AMX-10 RCs and a batallion of HMMWVs
-divisional logistics, repair and engineering units
I would place this division on the Luhans'k front where the relatively light weight of its tanks would be quite helpful in the swampy and forested terrain.

I would also form armoured divisions utilising Leopard 1A5s/M60A3s and M113 and would place them in Western and Northern Ukraine and on the Kherson front where their light protection and firepower would be a very great impediment and where their light weight would help in the swampy and forested terrain. Additionally, I would form light mechanised brigades utilising B1 Centauros (not yet pledged by Italy but likely considering their impending replacement by B2 Centauro in Italian service), AMX-10 RCs (depending how many are provided by France - I would not consider the delivery of all the over 200 pieces unlikely as hte vehicle is to be retired from French service in any case this year), FV107 Scimitars, FV102 Spartans, VABs, Pasis, Strykers and DANAs.

Now, this is all speculation on my part, and this is my view of an ideal situation (sans M1 Abrams), where European countries significantly increase the quantity and heaviness of the ground equipment they provide to Ukraine. I do not consider the full realisation of this likely any time soon (before autumn at least) if ever, but neither do I consider this completely impossible. Additionally, this does not remove Ukraine's need of modern Western fighter aircraft (Tranche 1 Typhoons and F-16 A/B MLUs might be a solution here), AEW&C platforms (E-2Cs or Erieyes might be a soloution here) or longer range precission fires (GL-SDB and Storm Shaddow along Ukrainian production of kamikaze drines and Sapsan SRBMs are the likely solutions here). The scetch above might also contain several errors as it is completely based on publicly and quickly available information.
 
The Leo's are 'local' ish, certainly more relocateable than any M1 suppplies and commonality would make a lot of sense logistics wise. This would also make retraining simpler but logic does not make the horse drink.
Cowardice frankly. To be succinct, I am talking about the German government.
 
How many of the Leo 1's built are actually available in storage and what sort of condition are they in. Can they be brought up to a reasonable level as to be effective against T series opposition in the current european environment?
 
Rheinmetall has 88 Leo 1s in stock. No idea on condition, probably would need as much work as a stored Leo 2 if not more if they need serious updating.
 
After the loss of Leopard 2 tanks in Turkey maybe the Germans are worried that the tanks will suffer a similar fate at the hands of the Russians.
It would be pretty humiliating if RT could show brewed up Leopards in Ukraine. Compared with Challenger and Abrams they are not that well armoured.
In fairness to the Germans, it's more because of the Turks ineptitude, combined with that fact that got them into the situation that they were in. As far as I know, they were operating with little to no infantry support, which as was proven by the Russians in the "Kyiv thunder run", not such a good idea.
 
I thought that Ukraine said that they did not want Abrams because of their turbine engines,they
wanted diesel powered tanks.
 
I have to ask. Why did Jordan have 400 Challenger 1s? And what have they been replaced with?


Chris
CJGibson
Hi
The buy all the CR.1.
I read in Facebook ( A Challeneger group) most ex tank crew, tht theay are not spares (they dont made any more) for then.
I´m not for UK, but I have doubts about the the L11 pounch for modern tank like the T-90.
I read in wiki that some ammunition for the L30 can be use by the L11, but I dont known if is that correct, and of course, I dont known if the L30 ammunition is still in production
A possible upgraded could be done by the Jordan ( they had some prototypes) the Al Hussein hybrid.
The y replace the L11 by a 120mm CTG smoothbore gun
1674524561236.jpeg 1674524588068.jpeg

1674524612757.jpeg
images

I must say thta i love the CR.1 in this configuration
nkk1tkqvcxy11.jpg
 
Logistics. At the same power output, a diesel engine consumes less fuel than a gas turbine. ISTR an Abrams has 5% less range on 37% more fuel than a Leopard 2.
<edit> link found here for the 5% - 37%:
The Swedish trials prior to Sweden's decision to buy Leopard 2A5 showed M1 Abrams to be twice as thirsty as Leo 2, unfortunately I couldn't find a better source than b*y facebook:
Swedish Army trials of the Leopard 2, M1 Abrams and the Leclerc main battle tanks in 1993.

The Swedish Army's search for a new MBT goes way back to 1984 when they first tested the German Leopard 2 and the American M1 Abrams.

On the mobility tests done as part of the trials in the 1980s, the M1 Abrams consumed 56,488 liters of fuel travelling 3,820 kilometers, giving it a fuel consumption rate of 14.7 liters/km.

The Leopard 2 on the other hand consumed 26,874 liters travelling a distance of 3,730 kilometers, with a fuel consumption rate of only 7.2 liters/km.

As you could see, the M1 Abrams consumed more than twice the amount of fuel as the Leopard 2.

These fuel consumption rates are also much greater than what is written on paper for these tanks, suggesting that these mobility tests were done on Sweden's northern mountainous terrains.

On paper:

M1 Abrams - 4.46 liters/km

Leopard 2 - 2.32 liters/km

Swedish Tests:

M1 Abrams - 14.7 liters/km

Leopard 2 - 7.2 liters/km
And, appropriate here - YMMV.
 
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This just in-John Deere to manufacture MANPAD equipped Hailfire droids-the tires are big enough. Carson voice off.
 
Germany has now received Poland's official request to re-export Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, the Polish defence minister said on Tuesday, as Warsaw cranks up the pressure on Berlin to give its approval.
 
Der Spiegel writes Germany will deliver tanks to Ukraine
 
I have to ask. Why did Jordan have 400 Challenger 1s? And what have they been replaced with?


Chris
Do we still have any Challenger 1s though?
 
Der Spiegel writes Germany will deliver tanks to Ukraine
Apparently Germany is going to send at least a company (14) of Leopard 2A6, the Netherlands are planning to buy and donate the 18 2A6Ms they are leasing from Germany, Norway is planning to send 8 2A4s, Finland is planning to donate a few, Poland is planning to give a company's worth of Leopards (most likely 2A4s but 2A5s are also a possiblity), Portugal is pondering whether to add in a few of their own 2A6s in to the mix and Spain is reviewing whether to gift a yet unspecified number (probably both 2A4s and 2A6s). Nothing has been told about the 2A4s and 1A5s (and possibly some other models) in German industry hands or the 19 2A5s still in use by the Bundeswehr. We will likely know much more by the end of the week (chancellor Scholz' press conference on Wednesday morning will be interesting and most likely quite informative).

As to other tanks, the Americans have not yet indicated the model of the 30-50 Abrams they are considering on sending, but my quess would be M1A1. The Brits are likely, IMO, to donate a batallion of Challenger 2s and some spare tanks, and the French are likely to send at least some Leclercs not to be outdone by l'Albion perfide and la Panzerterre. I wonder if Italy is going to donate C1 Arietes (I think B1 Centauro is much more likely). A deal similar to the T-72s from Morocco on Egyptian M60A3 is not impossible, either. Neither is a purchase of Jordan's Challenger 1s impossible. It is all going to be a logistician's and mechanic's nightmare, a huge burden on the training grounds and repair facilities in Europe and an afficionado's dream come true. As Western fighter aircraft (and possibly also STOL-capable AEW&C aircraft like E-2C or Erieye) and ATACMS also seem ever more likely to reach the battlefields of Ukraine by summer, we are going to get a glimpse of how a late Cold War turned hot battlefield would have looked like sans (hopefully!) WMDs.
 
I have to ask. Why did Jordan have 400 Challenger 1s? And what have they been replaced with?


Chris
Do we still have any Challenger 1s though?
Forest
The UK don have any one
They were sold to the Jordan Army, all of them
 
The Leopard 2s that German is sending are the latest most heavy gunned variants.

Put simply: longer barrels mean more firepower. Which is why it matters that Germany, Poland and Norway are donating to Ukraine different versions of the iconic Leopard 2 tank.

The German models—newer Leopard 2A6s—have 55-caliber, 120-millimeter main guns. The Polish and Norwegian models—older Leopard 2A4s—have 44-caliber guns of the same diameter. The Rheinmetall L/55 gun is nearly five feet longer than the Rheinmetall L/44 is.

The L/55’s extra length boosts its shells’ peak velocity from 5,400 feet per second to 5,700 feet per second, with a commensurate boost to their penetrating power. Calculations are complex, but it’s possible an L/55 can penetrate a third as much armor as an L/44 can at 4,400 yards, making the former a much more fearsome anti-tank weapon.
 
Now officially confirmed by Germany.

Germany said on Wednesday it would supply its Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine,
 
Ich liebe dich Germany. Better (very) late than never ! To spoof the late Don Eladio Vuentes "Ya basta de negocios. Traigan las tanques !"
 
Germany will provide 14 Leopard 2A6 tanks from Bundeswehr stocks.
Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023
Presse- und Informationsamt der Bundesregierung (BPA)

Das Ziel ist es, rasch zwei Panzer-Bataillone mit Leopard-2-Panzern für die Ukraine zusammenzustellen. Dazu wird Deutschland in einem ersten Schritt eine Kompanie mit 14 Leopard-2-A6-Panzern zur Verfügung stellen, die aus Beständen der Bundeswehr stammen. Weitere europäische Partner werden ihrerseits Panzer vom Typ Leopard-2 übergeben. Die Ausbildung der ukrainischen Besatzungen soll in Deutschland zügig beginnen. Zu dem Paket werden neben der Ausbildung auch Logistik, Munition und Wartung der Systeme gehören.
 
I have to ask. Why did Jordan have 400 Challenger 1s? And what have they been replaced with?


Chris
They had Chieftain before, and they were a bargain, as the original plan was to keep the CH1 and buy 400 CH2 for BAOR. The wall coming down meant we had 400 CH1 so they took them all.

The Jordanians replaced them with ex italian centauro wheeled tank/armoured recon whatever.

I also read that UK reports having 227 CH2, but there is another 170 or so stored/for parts etc. basically 400 were built, plus 40 for oman, plus 60 odd engineer/bridging chassis.

I would have thought we could get some of the CH1 fleet running, and some of the CH2. The CH2 hulls will be rebuilt anyway for the CH3 upgrade, with new turret, so there will also be 150 spare CH2 turrets.
 
Even if we were in a position to buy back CH1s from Oman, they would need a heck of a lot of modernisation given that Jordan never did any upgrades (that entered service) and essentially are probably still in stock circa 2000 condition.
Not only that but Rheinmetall BAE Systems Land probably has its hands full with CH3 given its still four years away from IOC (only 148 CH3 seems a shortsighted shortfall to me, but that's an aside).

As for ammo, L23A2 APFSDS is compatible with L11A5. L28A1 is as well with a reduced charge.

Potential compromising of Dorchester is perhaps worrying but I doubt Russia is going to develop a specific warhead to defeat the armour on 270 CH2 (or just 148 CH1) tanks when there are 2,700 Leo 2s in Europe! That's assuming its mix hasn't already been compromised and that it doesn't really differ in any fundamental way from other modern armour materials on M1 and Leo.
 
Even if we were in a position to buy back CH1s from Oman, they would need a heck of a lot of modernisation given that Jordan never did any upgrades (that entered service) and essentially are probably still in stock circa 2000 condition.
That's not entirely bad really. Russia is using a lot of tanks still in pre-2000 conditions, plus some really old beaters. Challenger 1s by comparison still have very good armour and cannons good enough to kill T-72s at 5km in the right conditions. Carry a generous 64 rounds as well from memory.
 
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Jan. 25, 2023

Today, the Department of Defense (DoD) announces the procurement of Abrams tanks for Ukraine via the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative (USAI), to support Ukraine's defense against Russian aggression.

This USAI package underscores the continued U.S. commitment to building the capacity of Ukraine's Armed Forces, now and into the future. Unlike Presidential Drawdown authority (PDA), which DoD has continued to leverage to deliver equipment to Ukraine from DoD stocks at a historic pace, USAI is an authority under which the United States procures new capabilities. This $400 million USAI package represents the beginning of a contracting process to provide additional capabilities to Ukraine.

The capabilities in this package include:
- 31 Abrams tanks with 120mm rounds and other ammunition;
- Eight Tactical Vehicles to recover equipment;
- Support vehicles and equipment;
- Funding for training, maintenance, and sustainment.
 
Poland will be crucial to making this work as it will have to host all the support facilities for the tanks.
Given that Poland is already hosting NATO forces and wants to build up a significant tank force of its own this should be feasible.
I am sure that NATO countries can also provide the tank transporters and armoured recovery vehicles needed to make this work.
 
What's all the fuss about? Very smart people here told me recently that the Ukraine had more tanks than they started with because they captured so many, and the Russians are surely out of tanks and missiles and everything else by now.
What do you think happen to tanks in a war? Ukraine has no production capability left to continue pumping tanks to replace their loss. Russia does.
 
I'm seeing media reports on the tank situation that say the US doesn't want to send Abrams because of their high fuel consumption and maintenance requirements. Found those statements a bit odd (they're basically saying their tank isn't very usable in real-world situations). The armor issue makes more sense.
 
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