Ukrainian Conflict NEWS ONLY !!!!

[Hanz2k]

1. Future wars start looking like StarCraft game. Group of small units that consolidate, perform action and disperse till next action. Future is the interface for commanders to manage exactly like in StarCraft.
2. Air Defence require something that can wait silently, engage multiple targets in quick succession and fire and forget mode and then relocate. Era of stationary Air Defence is over. Interesting idea could be HtK Stinger with much better range and networked capabilities to fire on bearing.
3. Same for artillery - if it can’t move after engagement - it is doomed.
4. Anti tank rockets are big winner - and something like LOSAT has also big future ahead.
5. Eyes and ears - capability to use national guard as recon unit. Basically provide them with means to gather information and send them to the commanders via Internet or satellite SpaceX internet.
6. Drones - that’s interesting as we hear nothing spectacular about drones right now.

 

[Archibald]

This.thread.won't. end. well.

But let's give it a chance...

 

[Orionblamblam]

A small nation threatened by a larger neighbor has few options. One is alliances; had Ukraine been a part of NATO, this almost certainly would not have happened. Another is a willingness to engage in a war of attrition. To do that, the populace needs to be effectively armed, everythign from small arms to manpads and anti-tank rockets.

 

[Deleted member 2278]

Never, ever relinquish your nuclear arsenal.

 

[Archibald]

I've learned something: that freakkin' Ukraine also has tactical ballistic missiles. They lofted a couple ones at that Russian air base. Must have been weird for the poor russians at the end of the receiving line.

But lesson learned ? after only two days ? That's a bit... short time span, to draw lessons.

Except that Javelin ATMs seem to be damn efficient weapons (how surprising).

 

[Archibald]

Never, ever relinquish your nuclear arsenal.

Do you mean, Ukraine pre-1991 nukes ? but they were property of the Soviet Union, and nobody wanted nukes in decaying former Soviet satellite republics (imagine Lukashenko with nukes - gasp !)
Although I often wonder how was this trick pulled out, TBH.
-Soviet Union implodes
-a handful of former satellites republics inherit USSR nukes
-Russia says "I'm true heir of the Soviet Union, I can keep my nukes. Others former bit of USSR can't"
- the said others countries agree in the name of counter-proliferation and disarmement
- by the late 1990's, job done: only Russia keep former Soviet nukes
- Putin is happy

 

[stealthflanker]

and Russia have no restrictions in targeting airbases.. so well, the reason why we dont see as many drones as some would want.

 

[pathology_doc]

Maybe we wait until after it's over to list the lessons learned?

 

[edwest4]

All the Russians have to do is take out all Ukrainian air assets, then sit down at the bargaining table.

The current global military doctrine is called Low-Intensity Conflict. Anything short of nuclear war.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Putin is doing an incredible job to prevent his country from falling into chaos, if the fragmentation of the USSR had continued, no one knows what the final fate of thousands of nuclear warheads, biological weapons and elite soldiers looking for work would have been. He is not doing the right thing, from the cynical Western point of view, he does what is necessary, including quite theatrical interventions to maintain his leadership.

 

[edwest4]

Putin is doing an incredible job to prevent his country from falling into chaos, if the fragmentation of the USSR had continued, no one knows what the final fate of thousands of nuclear warheads, biological weapons and elite soldiers looking for work would have been. He is not doing the right thing, from the cynical Western point of view, he does what is necessary, including quite theatrical interventions to maintain his leadership.

"theatrical"? There is nothing theatrical about blowing up actual buildings and killing actual people. The Russian leader wants what most want: more land and resources. The annexation of the Crimea was not that long ago.

 

[Hanz2k]

Please close it - now. It try to stick to technicals what we observing but looks like you are not ready for it.

 

[GTX]

Here's why the West doesn't know how to fight Putin's Ukraine war

As globalisation rises in the West, Vladimir Putin is encouraging the return of the tribe. He sees the West's individualism as a weakness and his approach has set the world ablaze, writes Stan Grant.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Archibald]

Putin is doing an incredible job to prevent his country from falling into chaos, if the fragmentation of the USSR had continued, no one knows what the final fate of thousands of nuclear warheads, biological weapons and elite soldiers looking for work would have been. He is not doing the right thing, from the cynical Western point of view, he does what is necessary, including quite theatrical interventions to maintain his leadership.

Biopreparat was scary as frack, for a start.

 

[Fluff]

This.thread.won't. end. well.

But let's give it a chance...

seconded. Better to kill this baby now.......

 

[TR1]

I have not seen Javelin do ANYTHING.

Most overhyped weapon of all time. Do people think Ukraine never used ATGMS before lol? They took out plenty rebel tanks over the years in Donbass, and vice versa, with the same ATGMs vs roughly the same tanks.

So far the only good thing I have seen out of this conflict is civilian casualties have been very, very low.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Putin is doing an incredible job to prevent his country from falling into chaos, if the fragmentation of the USSR had continued, no one knows what the final fate of thousands of nuclear warheads, biological weapons and elite soldiers looking for work would have been. He is not doing the right thing, from the cynical Western point of view, he does what is necessary, including quite theatrical interventions to maintain his leadership.

"theatrical"? There is nothing theatrical about blowing up actual buildings and killing actual people. The Russian leader wants what most want: more land and resources. The annexation of the Crimea was not that long ago.

I don't like what it does either, but if the small local earthquakes prevent the big one from happening... let's consider the most unpleasant alternatives.

 

[Trident]

Never, ever relinquish your nuclear arsenal.

Not sure that truly follows. The Soviet nukes on Ukrainian territory were about as much use as one of my namesake missiles would be to myself in my garden shed. I don't think the government of Ukraine ever had the operational sovereignty (as in command & control system access) to actually authorize their use. Unfortunately the security guarantees extended in exchange for relinquishing them have repeatedly proved to be just as worthless

 

[sublight_]

Here's why the West doesn't know how to fight Putin's Ukraine war

As globalisation rises in the West, Vladimir Putin is encouraging the return of the tribe. He sees the West's individualism as a weakness and his approach has set the world ablaze, writes Stan Grant.

www.abc.net.au

This article is laughable. The world has moved on to the Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates types, these guys are all Nikita Khrushchev and Fidel Castro nostalgic.

 

[GTX]

Here's why the West doesn't know how to fight Putin's Ukraine war

As globalisation rises in the West, Vladimir Putin is encouraging the return of the tribe. He sees the West's individualism as a weakness and his approach has set the world ablaze, writes Stan Grant.

www.abc.net.au

This article is laughable. The world has moved on to the Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates types, these guys are all Nikita Khrushchev and Fidel Castro nostalgic.

I beg to differ - I think the article from Stan Grant actually goes to the heart of the problem here. The loss of direction/internal bickering etc in 'the west' over the last few decades has emboldened ones like Putin. I would strongly recommend people read his latest book (below) to get a far better insight:

 

[Antonio]

Please close it - now. It try to stick to technicals what we observing but looks like you are not ready for it.

Monitoring...

 

[Dilandu]

The main lesson: amount of false and fake information from both sides become truly staggering, making it almost impossible to make a coherent picture.

 

[Dilandu]

P.S. If you excuse me, I would refrain from any discussions about such conflict. I'm pretty shaken by the course of event. All my logical, rational assumptions were completely wrong; what I view as merely political games and chest thumping turned out... frightening. Being half-Russian and half-Ukrainian, this whole mess is just tearing me apart.

I only ask for one thing; do not believe EITHER side, unless there are significant confirmation. The amount of fake data, thrown into the mess, is really astonishing. Not only both sides utilizing all propaganda resources, but also literally millions of "patriotic" citizens on both sides add their personal efforts. So please, check everything and be critical.

 

[SOC]

Air Defence require something that can wait silently, engage multiple targets in quick succession and fire and forget mode and then relocate. Era of stationary Air Defence is over. Interesting idea could be HtK Stinger with much better range and networked capabilities to fire on bearing.

That obviously makes sense for a number of reasons but while Ukraine's IADS has certainly taken many hits, but there are plenty of reports indicating that there are active elements remaining. Whether these are heavy SAMs like S-300PT/PS or smaller tactical units is unclear but there are still surviving units actively engaging hostile targets.

Also, most of what would probably be considered "modern" SAM systems, going back to the S-300PS, are designed for extreme mobility anyway. Ignore the 40V6 masts and you can emplace and be ready to shoot with an S-300PS in 5 minutes, and be on the move again 5 minutes after the last engagement is done. Something like an S-350 with active radar missiles likely can be on the move again a bit quicker as it doesn't have to necessarily hang around sending guidance commands.

A small nation threatened by a larger neighbor has few options. One is alliances

There's the real lesson learned. Based on something I saw yesterday it may be that Finland is starting to learn this lesson, I believe a politician there was stating that the idea of NATO membership would possibly be reconsidered.

Putin is doing an incredible job to prevent his country from falling into chaos

Well it is a lot easier when you basically criminalize dissent and act accordingly...

 

[martinbayer]

Here's why the West doesn't know how to fight Putin's Ukraine war

As globalisation rises in the West, Vladimir Putin is encouraging the return of the tribe. He sees the West's individualism as a weakness and his approach has set the world ablaze, writes Stan Grant.

www.abc.net.au

This is just romanticizing a soulless thug. Vlad the Invader is an ice cold bureaucratic KGB trained dictator that is only in it for the lust for power. Like Stalin, he doesn't care about anybody but himself and has no qualms whatsoever to sacrifice his own people (sending Russian soldiers into a vanity war), let alone those of other nations. Nostalgia or sentimentalism has no place in his designs.

 

[GTX]

Folks, this thread has the potential to head off the cliff and be locked quickly. I know a lot of people are angry/emotional about the situation. May I ask that you please restrain yourself and if you feel that you can't simply do not post as the posts will undoubtedly be deleted and/or the thread locked.

 

[edwest4]

In 1953, the United States realized that nuclear war was not winnable in any sense of the word.

 

[GTX]

Here's why the West doesn't know how to fight Putin's Ukraine war

As globalisation rises in the West, Vladimir Putin is encouraging the return of the tribe. He sees the West's individualism as a weakness and his approach has set the world ablaze, writes Stan Grant.

www.abc.net.au

This is just romanticizing a soulless thug. Vlad the Invader is an ice cold bureaucratic KGB trained dictator that is only in it for the lust for power. Like Stalin, he doesn't care about anybody but himself and has no qualms whatsoever to sacrifice his own people (sending Russian soldiers into a vanity war), let alone those of other nations. Nostalgia or sentimentalism has no place in his designs.

There is no romanticising what-so-ever. Please read exactly what was written and the analysis contained.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Being half-Russian and half-Ukrainian,

That's got to be a hell of a thing right now.

 

[Orionblamblam]

In 1953, the United States realized that nuclear war was not winnable in any sense of the word.

Well, except for the one we actually fought... and won. It's handy when the other side in a nuclear conflict doesn't actually have nukes, of course.

 

[martinbayer]

Here's why the West doesn't know how to fight Putin's Ukraine war

As globalisation rises in the West, Vladimir Putin is encouraging the return of the tribe. He sees the West's individualism as a weakness and his approach has set the world ablaze, writes Stan Grant.

www.abc.net.au

This is just romanticizing a soulless thug. Vlad the Invader is an ice cold bureaucratic KGB trained dictator that is only in it for the lust for power. Like Stalin, he doesn't care about anybody but himself and has no qualms whatsoever to sacrifice his own people (sending Russian soldiers into a vanity war), let alone those of other nations. Nostalgia or sentimentalism has no place in his designs.

There is no romanticising what-so-ever. Please read exactly what was written and the analysis contained.

I didn't mean you, I meant the article. I have read exactly what was written and the analysis contained therein, I just happen to vehemently disagree with it. Putin is simply not the type to secretly sing Kumbaya with Mother Russia. Just like certain gentlemen from say France or Austria (boom - there it is!) before him he is only after having power over as many people and square kilometers as he can get away with - simple as that.

 

[GTX]

Ok, so that's your POV. Fine. I personally agree with it and find Stan Grant's analysis (backed by decades of real world experience on the ground in places such as China, Russia, North Korea, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan amongst other fun places) extremely insightful and pertinent.

 

[SOC]

Here's why the West doesn't know how to fight Putin's Ukraine war

As globalisation rises in the West, Vladimir Putin is encouraging the return of the tribe. He sees the West's individualism as a weakness and his approach has set the world ablaze, writes Stan Grant.

www.abc.net.au

The last two sentences in the article are arguably the most significant lesson to be aware of.

 

[Hanz2k]

Air Defence require something that can wait silently, engage multiple targets in quick succession and fire and forget mode and then relocate. Era of stationary Air Defence is over. Interesting idea could be HtK Stinger with much better range and networked capabilities to fire on bearing.

That obviously makes sense for a number of reasons but while Ukraine's IADS has certainly taken many hits, but there are plenty of reports indicating that there are active elements remaining. Whether these are heavy SAMs like S-300PT/PS or smaller tactical units is unclear but there are still surviving units actively engaging hostile targets.

Also, most of what would probably be considered "modern" SAM systems, going back to the S-300PS, are designed for extreme mobility anyway. Ignore the 40V6 masts and you can emplace and be ready to shoot with an S-300PS in 5 minutes, and be on the move again 5 minutes after the last engagement is done. Something like an S-350 with active radar missiles likely can be on the move again a bit quicker as it doesn't have to necessarily hang around sending guidance commands.

I rather thinking about CAMM, CAMM-ER and Israeli Spyder. I expect that Patriot will be shortly modified and placed on 8x8 or 10x10 carriers and prepared to shoot while moving (not exactly - but maybe 15-20s from driving to firing first missile). Mobile AA is a must. Drive, stop, shoot 3-4 missiles in sector provided by networked Sensors and move again.

 

[edwest4]

Being half-Russian and half-Ukrainian,

That's got to be a hell of a thing right now.

What? Personal loyalty is personal loyalty.

 

[edwest4]

In 1953, the United States realized that nuclear war was not winnable in any sense of the word.

Well, except for the one we actually fought... and won. It's handy when the other side in a nuclear conflict doesn't actually have nukes, of course.

When President Truman heard that General MacArthur was considering using atomic bombs against Chinese troops, he relieved him of command.

 

[martinbayer]

Ok, so that's your POV. Fine. I personally agree with it and find Stan Grant's analysis (backed by decades of real world experience on the ground in places such as China, Russia, North Korea, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan amongst other fun places) extremely insightful and pertinent.

I completely agree that a whole lot of people around the globe these days believe in a tribal world view like the one described in the article, which makes them easy prey for manipulation, but my (cynical?) take is that leaders who ruthlessly exploit such sentiments rarely actually subscribe to them themselves.

 

[edwest4]

This is just Russia improving their "bargaining" position, nothing more. By the way, in Russia, World II is called The Great Patriotic War.

 

[TR1]

This is just Russia improving their "bargaining" position, nothing more. By the way, in Russia, World II is called The Great Patriotic War.

It's Putin securing his domestic position, getting stuck in Donbass, then deciding to double down while retroactively applying (previously legitmate) Russian concerns about NATO to the situation. IMO.

 

[GTX]

I completely agree that a whole lot of people around the globe these days believe in a tribal world view like the one described in the article, which makes them easy prey for manipulation, but my (cynical?) take is that leaders who ruthlessly exploit such sentiments rarely actually subscribe to them themselves.

Let's just agree to disagree since this is going nowhere.