TZoli's Warship Designs

The Guided Missile Battleship Kii:
daeitcy-40f56bdf-2b9f-4106-9b53-66ddb581aa86.png

https://www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/Guided-Missile-Battleship-Kii-629054242

Asked by a friend to draw a cold war era modernised Kii class battleship with missile launchers and such.
Here is the product of never were warship's could had been modernization's hypothetical Guided Missile refit!

I've replaced the 3rd 41cm twin turret with a twin RIM-8 Talos missile launcher with it's associated loading equipment. The should had been 12,7cm Type 89 DP-AA Guns were replaced by the 5" Mark 18 single gun turrets, all casemated 140mm and 25mm AA guns were removed and added British 40mm Bofors Mark V as well as various US radar systems.
 
Tzoli said:
Jemiba said:
Great work and looking plausible as a ship between HMS Belfast and the KGVs. Could have been worthwhile
as a counter to the "Pocket Battleships". Smaller calibre guns, but double the number and better protection.
And as the Town class was originally envisaged to have four quadruple turrets, it may be plausible here, too.
Click to expand...

It was a real design from 1939 when Winston Churchill proposed a Super Cruiser to fight enemy heavy cruisers.
These were to be the stats:

Dimensions: 220m x 25.6m x 7.3m
Displacement: 22,000tons
Engine Power: 154.000shp 4 shafts, 61km/h (33knots)
Range: 18.500km on 30km/h (10.000nm on 16knots)
Armour: 7inch belt, 4inch deck (178/102mm)
Armaments:
12, 9.2inch (234mm) Guns in 3 quad turrets
12, 4.5in (114mm) AA Guns in 6 twin turrets
16, 40mm AA Guns in 4 quad turrets

Further study not continued on the super cruiser type as 4 ships would cost more then 3 Vanguards!
Click to expand...
Hypothetically speaking, would it have been possible to substitute 3 twin or triple 11" gun turrets for the 3 quadruple 9.2" turrets, while retaining the same displacement & dimensions?
 
Depending if you would accept Japanese philosophy of under armouring turrets as weight saving methods, otherwise the heavier shells, and turret armour would add weight to the 11" turrets. also depending on the / calibre as a longer gun would even increase the weight more so.
 
Great Tzoli : some alternate profile of warships inspire me especially the post war profile of japanese warships of ww2 .
 
Tzoli

good to see you contributing after the demise of the third warship projects board. After the demise of the third board I have done little because of work but have your emails from time to time with the compiled histories of never builts. Of course the departure of Stefano was quite startling especially as I would have met him in the USA on his contemplated vacation.
However, back to subject. Reviewing your ships, and after you make more practical designing, have you ever gone beyond paper to actually modelling the designs in styrene? As you will recall, I've done that a bit and did so before the springsharp calculator made it easier. Like to hear from you!
 
I rarely post nowadays here as I rarely draw hypothetical or alternative universe designs but I thought I post my more realistic version of the Refitted Yamato class from the series: "Man in the High Castle"
www.deviantart.com

Yamato class Post WW2 Refit by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com www.deviantart.com
ddld3hn-3745ccff-701f-41c6-aa66-cb1e3fc883b2.png


Based on the idea presented by Man in the High Castle IJN Musashi scene in Season 3:

It is basically an austere modernisation the same as what happened to the Iowas in the 1950's. I've fixed the issues from the scene of the show, like why maintain the 25mm AA gune when these weapons lost most of their effectiveness by WW2 and surely not suitable for a cold war jet plane era. And most notably the mainmast which is a nice addition but in the show they put it too close to the bridge making the main rangefinder basically useless as it could not rotate to both sides but only like 75 degrees?

This design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 244 (pp) 256 (wl) 263 (oa) x 38,9 x 10,4m
Displacement: 65.000tons (standard), 72.800tons (full load)
Armour: 200mm Deck, 410mm Belt (Immunity against own 46cm shells between 20.0000 and 30.000m) inclined at 20 degrees
Engines: 150.000shp, 4 shafts, Steam Turbines
Speed: 50km/h (27knots)
Range: 13.300km at 30km/h (7.200nm at 16knots)
Armaments:
3x2 51cm/45 Type 98 Cannons,
2x3 15,5cm/60 Type 90 Guns
12x2 127mm/40 Type 89 DP-AA guns
6-8x Helicopters (Kamov Ka-25 Hormone size)
Sensors:
SPS-10 type Surface search radar (one set on top of the aft rangefinder)
SPS-12 type Surface search radar (two sets, on each arms of the main range finder, rotating)
SPS-43 type Air search radar (one set on top of the mainmast)
SPG-25 type Gunnery control radar (four sets, one on each DP-AA rangefinder)
Type 42 Searchlight control / gun laying radars (two sets, one on each side of the funnel between the Searchlight platforms)
 
Dilandu said:
Tzoli said:
Asked by a friend to draw a cold war era modernised Kii class battleship with missile launchers and such.
Click to expand...

Hm... I take it "Talos" is of "Albany" type, with under-deck magazines?
Click to expand...
Yes, stored in place of the 3rd turret magazines so well protected. Though at that time I had much less knowledge on missiles so I envisioned a storage under deck with loading and assembling in the deck structure with elevator supplying the new missiles.
 
Tzoli said:
Yes, stored in place of the 3rd turret magazines so well protected. Though at that time I had much less knowledge on missiles so I envisioned a storage under deck with loading and assembling in the deck structure with elevator supplying the new missiles.
Click to expand...

Ah, understood. Must admit, I toyed with the idea of Talos-armed JMSDF battleships and cruisers also - especially "Ise"-class, due to them being already partially-converted - but essentially decided to try a bit of "native" & imagine a post-war "Ise"-class ships (retained by Japanese as training vessels), re-armed with naval derivatives of "Funryu"-class SAM.
 
Tzoli Dilandu
I am sure there is plenty of scope here for your excellent drawings which are an alternate source to Shipbucket.
The closest real world ship from an Axis Navy was Italy's Garibaldi light cruiser which got a Terrier launcher, and even some Polaris tubes.
 
uk 75 said:
The closest real world ship from an Axis Navy was Italy's Garibaldi light cruiser which got a Terrier launcher, and even some Polaris tubes.
Click to expand...

Yep. She was the oldest commissioned ship ever receiving missile armament.

Littorio 58.png

(I once tried a Littorio-class 1958s refit, using the original image from Shipbucket).
 
Erm did you checked the rangefinders if they could rotate?
But on the other hand the Italian "Cake" rangefinders base length was not that big to begin with...
 
Tzoli said:
Erm did you checked the rangefinders if they could rotate?
But on the other hand the Italian "Cake" rangefinders base length was not that big to begin with...
Click to expand...

Pfft! Why should it rotate? The enemy would only approach from one direction anyway, (unless they are those dastardly Engligh!) and besides the first rule or Italian combat, what is behind me is not important!

(Great stuff all around to be serious :) )

Randy
 
RanulfC said:
Pfft! Why should it rotate? The enemy would only approach from one direction anyway, (unless they are those dastardly Engligh!) and besides the first rule or Italian combat, what is behind me is not important!
Click to expand...

Must point out, that Italian battleships were the most active of the whole Axis.
 
Dilandu said:
RanulfC said:
Pfft! Why should it rotate? The enemy would only approach from one direction anyway, (unless they are those dastardly Engligh!) and besides the first rule or Italian combat, what is behind me is not important!
Click to expand...

Must point out, that Italian battleships were the most active of the whole Axis.
Click to expand...

It was all aimed at including the joke/line from the movie "Gumball Rally"

Hired Italian driver arrives and rips off the rear-view mirror: "First rule of Italian Driving; What is behind me is not important"

I think I may be showing my age :)

Randy
 
just wondering... have you done an HMS King George V? an armoured island with alota guns





1631410326030.png 1631410477305.png
 
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Tzoli said:
Hey guys!

This is my first thread in here but I regularly post ship designs at the Warship Projects Forum, so now I've decided to post them here as well.
I tend to draw/design ships which are plausible to build, or I tend to do so!

So let me start with my newest designs a modified German Admiral Hipper and P class Heavy Cruisers.

The idea behind these are the real triple 20.3cm Krupp Turret which can be found here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18915.0.html

So in order:
1. Original Admiral Hipper class Heavy Cruiser: 4x2 20.3cm, 6x2 10.5cm, 4x3 53.3cm Torpedoes
2. Prinz Eugen class (Improved Admiral Hipper class Heavy Cruiser): 2x3,2x2 20.3cm, 8x2 10.5cm, 4x3 53.3cm Torpedoes
3. P class (Modified P class Heavy Cruiser): 3x3 20.3cm, 7x2 10.5cm, 2x4 53.3cm Torpedoes
4. Improved P class (Modified P class Heavy Cruiser): 4x3 20.3cm, 6x2 10.5cm, 2x4 53.3cm Torpedoes
5. Original P class Big Gun Cruiser: 2x3 28cm, 2x2 15cm, 4x2 10.5cm, 2x4 53.3cm Torpedoes
comparsion_cruiser_image_by_tzoli-d61kez6.png


And the ship number in my opinion are:
2x Admiral Hipper
2x Prinz Eugen
3x P-I
3x P-II
6x P
Click to expand...
Wasn't the P-class supposed to have the forward 283 mm turret superfiring over the forward 150 mm turret and the the aft 150 mm turret superfiring over the aft 283 mm turret?
 
That is I think an errenous or fictional arrangement it does not really makes sense
 
Tzoli said:
That is I think an errenous or fictional arrangement it does not really makes sense
Click to expand...
It seems to be cited from Erich Gröner's 1990 book "German Warships: 1815–1945. Vol. I: Major Surface Vessels.".
 
Aelvir said:
Tzoli said:
That is I think an errenous or fictional arrangement it does not really makes sense
Click to expand...
I found it here in the book.
Click to expand...

Underwater torpedo tubes??? In the late 30's early 40's? I find that very unlikely!

On the other hand the H class preliminary drawings do show such tubes.....
 
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Some new drawings done for my own amusement based on my own ideas.
What if the Lord Nelsons were allowed to be kept after the Washington Naval Treaty?
The Battlecruisers forum thread is here:
www.tapatalk.com

All the World's Battlecruisers-Lord Nelsons post-Washington

In this thread Cross648 asked about Lord Nelson and Agamemnon surviving as training ships and being refitted for Second World War Service. My own resp
www.tapatalk.com www.tapatalk.com

And the first drawing of a minimal refit which contains the following:
- Refurbishment of electrical systems,
- Removal of 3" guns
- Adding quad Pom-pom's on 12" turret tops
- Adding 4x quad 0,5" AA guns on the superstructure corners
- During wartime additional light AA could be added.

With a mission profile of Training/Cadet ships, Coastal Defence and bombardment or Convoy Escort.

dffqifi-6234cb2f-5360-4975-ac7b-187b43ea4754.png
 
Next in the line is the Economical refit, a somewhat more extensive update of the aging battleships but still nothing major.
For mission profile, I've envisioned Coastal Defence and bombardment and Convoy Escort duties.

The Refit contains the following:
- Refurbishment of boilers and electrical system possible changing boilers to Oil fire
- Replace 1-3 boilers (Based on their arrangement) by diesel generators
- If allowed 12" turret maximum elevation increase
- Removal of 3" guns
- Adding quad Pom-pom's on 12" turret tops
- Adding 4x4 0,5" AA guns on the superstructure corners
- Adding 3" or 4" single DP-AA guns on 9,2" turret tops
- During wartime additional light AA could be added.

dfft435-b7ea65c9-2c54-4b2d-9f57-72212d5776ca.png
 
Next is the Major Refit Variant A which is a more extensive refit, with more money allocated to updating the ships.
For mission profile, I've envisioned Coastal Defence, Convoy Escort and Fleet support roles.

The Refit contains the following:
- Replace engines with steam turbines and oil fired boilers possible maximum 40-60.000shp with added Diesel generators possible maximum speed 20-22knots
- Standardise deck armour thickness
- 12" and 9,2" turret maximum elevation increase
- Removal of single 9,2" and 3" guns
- Modern Fire Control equipment
- In place of single 9,2" turrets a platform for 2 twin 4" DP-AA Guns per side
- Adding quad Pom-pom's on 12" turret tops
- Adding 4x quad 0,5" AA guns on the superstructure corners
- During wartime additional light AA could be added.

dffvo3g-7a7dba72-65a6-4c17-9425-2a58d30233c1.png
 
The Major Refit Variant B is a somewhat different version where all the 9,2" turrets were removed and replaced by twin 6" and 4,5" guns.

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 125 (pp) x 132,6 (wl) x 135,2 (oa) x 24,2 x 7,92m
Displacement: Around 16.250tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm belt, 76mm deck, 51mm machinery, 102mm magazine slopes
Engines: 42.000shp Parsons Steam Turbines, 2 shafts
Range: 27.000km at 18km/h (14.500nm at 10knots)
Speed: 42km/h (22,5knots)
Armaments:
2x2 12"/45 (305mm/45) BL Mark X Cannons,
4x2 6"/50 (152mm/50) BL Mark XXIII Guns
4x2 4,5"/45 (114mm/45) QF Mark I DP-AA Guns,
4x4 40mm/39 QF Mk VIII Pom-Pom AA Guns,
4x4 12,7mm/62 MG Mark III AA Guns

dffy3yc-2c388a26-d857-4083-847a-225786bdc63f.png
 
The last of the Major refit versions, variant C with a heavy emphasis on AA defense with the 4-per side 5,25 twin turrets the standard British Battleship DP-AA armament.

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 125 (pp) x 132,6 (wl) x 135,2 (oa) x 24,2 x 7,92m
Displacement: Around 16.250tons (standard)
Armour: 305mm belt, 76mm deck, 51mm machinery, 102mm magazine slopes
Engines: 42.000shp Parsons Steam Turbines, 2 shafts
Range: 27.000km at 18km/h (14.500nm at 10knots)
Speed: 42km/h (22,5knots)
Armaments:
2x2 12"/45 (305mm/45) BL Mark X Cannons,
8x2 5,25"/50 (133mm/50) QF Mark I DP-AA Guns
4x4 40mm/39 QF Mk VIII Pom-Pom AA Guns,
4x4 12,7mm/62 MG Mark III AA Guns

dfgwafv-1e1ce6ab-3351-4991-badd-721a01b10f1e.png
 
Outstanding!

An easier refit could have been UD 4.5" as used on Ark Royal and the two 4.5" Dido's. None the less this would have made a very interesting convoy escort.
 
Those who seen my drawings or follow me know I'm a good artist, drawing various ships. I've decided to move away from DeviantArt which hosted my works for a decade. The reason behind leaving DA is that it is overwhelmed by AI art, stolen art, badly and slowly working functions and the lack of interactions etc. So now I either moving to a different art site (not many available) or to a dedicated Website. Does anybody willing to "hire" me or include me in his/her naval website content creating?
 
Jemiba said:
the IJN "Yamise" (or better "Isato" ?) could be a good What-If, maybe thinking around the 18 inch
gun design to be a complete failure. or their factory destroyed by an earth quake. To get the ship
into service quickly, older and smaller gun designs were used, although I would think of 16 inch,
like in Mutsu/Nagato, rather than 15 inch, which weren't used by the IJN, I think.

About the IJN carriers with angled decks, I'm somewhat sceptical, if these ships wouldn't have needed
a little bit more mass on the portside for balancing the overhang of the flight deck ?
I would rather expect a flight deck similar to the first conversion of HMS Eagle, 1955
(drawing from http://www.flightglobal.com/airspac...logFiles.orion/7823.layout.jpg_2D00_700x0.jpg)

- I know about the reason for the gun arrangement of Nelson/Rodney, I just thought the way the admiralty was
cloaking the criticism quite funny (if it is more, than just a legend) !

- .. and I think, ships were more vulnerable to gunfire when pointing their length to the enemy, instead of their
broadside, as finding the correct distance was more difficult, than correct azimuth ?
Click to expand...
This drawing is Ark Royal, not Eagle.
 
Some new fun drawings.

For a few years I had this idea of how would some warship classes (battleships mostly) look like if were designed by a different country with the same general armament and layout to the original but the national characteristics of the building country. Some real world never were designs already achieved this like the British Lion preliminary Design 16E-38 or the Japanese Yamato preliminary A-140J3 which both could be called the British and Japanese Montanas etc.

At first I thought how would the Yamato would loo like if built by the British, Americans, French, Italians or Germans? Or their respective last battleship classes in other navies looks? Like a British Bismarck, German Iowa, Italian KGV or French Littorio? etc etc

A British Yamato with 3x3 18"/45 BL Mark II, 2x3 6"/50 BL Mark XXIII and 8x2 5,25"/50 QF Mark I turrets on the hull of the Lion preliminary design 16E-38:
British Yamato.png

And a British Bismarck with
4x2 15"/50 BL Mark II New, 6x2 6"/50 BL Mark XXII and 8x2 4"/45 QF Mark XVI turrets
on the hull of the Lion preliminary design 14B-38
British Bismarck.png
And in KMS colours:
British Bismarck 2.png
 
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