TZoli's Warship Designs

[Tzoli]

Probably, I don't know how does any of the ships armour scheme looked like especially top view

 

[Tzoli]

Another Yamato variant but this time my idea of merging her with the British N3 Class!

 

[Tzoli]

And now some fun!

A drawing inspired by three things:
The Mighty Yamato Class Battleships
The Mogami Class Light/Heavy Cruisers
And the Amagi class battleship from the game: NavyField

An idea of mixing the Yamato and the Mogami like I've seen in NavyField. So this ship was born the Maximum Yamato.Traded away the secondary guns which were the weak spots on the hull on the original Yamato and giving her two more triple 46cm Gun Turrets totalling the gun number to 15! Of course the lengthened hull the longer belt and deck armour and the two extra turrets sure given a couple of extra thousand tons and the speed decreases somewhat but who cares if you have more cannons then any other battleship afloat and those are the largest ones ever mounted?

And for those who like BIG GUNS and LOTS OF EM!!
a 5 quad turreted Yamato Variant!

 

[Tzoli]

An idea of a modernized old Armoured Cruiser the French Waldeck-Rousseau of the Edgar Quinet class. She was launched in 1908. For this modernization I used the Algérie class Heavy Cruiser as the basis. Replaced/Removed the 14 194mm Guns with 4 twin 203mm Gun turrets, added 8 twin 100mm AA Guns, trunked the 6 funnels into 4 and a modern superstructure again from the Algérie.

 

[Peebo-Thulhu]

Just a question to TZoli, or any one who might know, but...

Is/Was it possible to actually produce that 25 gun monster?

Or would certain structural problems have put a limit on things?

I assume the Yamato ship that was built was the best (Perceived or other wise) compromise between what people actually wanted, what treaties and politics allowed and what budgets and time made available?

Very much cheers to all.

 

[Tzoli]

Just a question to TZoli, or any one who might know, but...

Is/Was it possible to actually produce that 25 gun monster?

Or would certain structural problems have put a limit on things?

I assume the Yamato ship that was built was the best (Perceived or other wise) compromise between what people actually wanted, what treaties and politics allowed and what budgets and time made available?

Very much cheers to all.

25 Gun monster? didn't you meant the 5x3 one?
I think it is possible but not with the same armour mass Yamato used for it'§s turrets and belt!

 

[Tzoli]

Another Armoured Cruiser Modernization of mine:

The Modernized IJN Asama.
Modern 20cm Twin Gun Turrets used on the new Heavy Cruisers replacing the old 1904 ones and practically double their range.
Removed all of the casemate 152mm Guns and replaced them with 4 twin 155mm Gun Turrets similar ones found on the Oyodo, Mogami (Before Conversion to CA) and Yamato. AA Armament was limited to 2 twin 127mm AA guns but this is an old ship, I was lucky to find space for those AA guns at all!
Trunked the two funnels into one and adopted the superstructure from the Oyodo.

And a different AA version (I know triple AA guns looks a bit weird!)

Turning the IJN Asama into an AA Platform with prototype 127mm Type 1 Guns in Triple turrets based on the Type 98 Gun Turret. The idea is brought up by a friend of mine

 

[Jemiba]

Good idea, the first conversion would have turned the Asama into a kind of
coastal defence ship of the '30s, I think, when AA artillery still had not a very
high value. Maybe the only point is, that from the stand point of fire control
fitting triple 6inch instead of twin 8 inch, so standardising on a single calibre,
would be advantageous ?
The AA version seems logical to me, too, due to the low number of light AA guns
I would assume, that it is from the early war years ? Later maybe the 8 inch
turrets would have been replaced by two more 5 inch triples ?

 

[Tzoli]

Actually I've rarely deal with light AA, also these are old ships and have limited space as well.
I intended them as coastal defence (home islands or the pacific islands) ships or as convoy guardians so the 20cm guns are a must I think.

 

[Jemiba]

Mixing 8 and 6 inch guns on a ship may have been a re-invention of the last types of
pre-dreadnoughts and maybe would have brought back the same problems, that were
hampering ships like the HMS Agammenon: Difficulties with fire control, because splashes
of the fired shells were hard to distinguish. And to my knowledge fire control was still
relying on this principle, as long as there wasn't a fire control radar.
And to my knowledge, 6 inch guns did very well, even against enemies with heavier armament.
The higher broadside weight of 8 inch gunned ships was often leveled by the higher rate and
density of fire of 6 inch gunned ships.

 

[Tzoli]

I'm not so sure. Japanese optical rangefinders were the best in World War 2 also the turret hole was a limiting factor as well!
Also they had a mixed armament to begin with as they were armoured cruisers!

 

[Tzoli]

Another AA ship conversion, this time the Emerald class of the Royal navy:

First I removed the 7x 152mm main guns and the 3x 76mm AA guns, then the 4 torpedo launchers and the catapult. slightly rebuilt the aft deck and put 7 twin 114mm (4.5inch) Mark IV AA guns in place of the main guns and 6x 40mm Twin Bofors AA guns mostly in place of the 76mm ones and the catapult space. With these changes this ship become a very potent AA platform.

 

[Tzoli]

Soviet Navy ship this time.

An improved and thus much better Gangut class Battleship similar to the Austro Hungarian Viribus Unitis class:

Isn't it look better this way?
Also a result of this arrangement there are much more deck space which could be allocated for extra guns, so I given her 10 Twin 100mm B-32 Dual Purpose AA Guns
The engine space is better as well giving her more speed.

And a possible BBG conversion of the Ganguts in the cold war:

An idea of mine: What if the Ganguts would not be scrapped in the 50ies but instead converted to Guided Missile Battleships?

So I draw them: removed the aft pair of turrets and the superstructure, placed a twin SA-N-1 Goa SAM and twin SS-N-1 Scrubber Anti Ship Missile launchers with their radar system and a pair of quad 57mm ZIF-75 AA Guns. Making this ship a formidable adversary against allied naval forces.

I don't know how heavy were the missile launchers and the AA guns but maybe this ship even got some extra km/h speed as well

 

[Jemiba]

For the modernised "improved Gangut" I would propose the two funnels trunked. The space between
funnel and rear mast could perhaps be used for a catapult ? To my opinion it would look better. Have the
Wiking model of the modernised Marat with the bent forward funnel. It looks "interesting", but certainly
not good (Sorry for spoiling your drawing, was just as explanation)
Fitting missile systems probably would have been possible. I think, the Sverdlov class cruiser Dzerzhinsky
was fitted with a SA-N-2 missile system in place of an aft turret. The SS-N-1 Scrubber system had the
missile stowage in the deck house behind the turnable launcher, so no great problem here either. Assuming
the Soviet Navy would have had nearly unlimited personal and financial supply, this conversion may have
been a suitable coast defense ship.

 

[Tzoli]

Yeah it sounds logical and a bit better looking too.

Well there were conversions for the Iowa's into a BBG and there is a new book about these conversion proposals for the other US battleships too!
And what do you think about the CLAA Emerald?

 

[Jemiba]

And what do you think about the CLAA Emerald?

Looks logical and such a ship could have been very helpful to the Royal Navy especially in the
Mediterranean theatre around 1941/1942, I think. But with 4.5 inch Mk IVs it would have been in
service not before 1943, I think, when the urgent need for AA fire power there already was somewhat
lower. And for joining the British Eastern Fleet, HMS Emerald may have been already a little
bit too old. Maybe 4.5 inch Mk.III in mointings as in HMS Renown would be a better choice ?

 

[Tzoli]

I choose this gun because it was one of the best.
Also there is the Red Air Force after ww2 to reckon with!

 

[Tzoli]

Now I post a big one.
Once I've played with the Nelsons and created some hypothetical designs based on them.
Here they are:

1. Conventionally arranged Nelson (looks pretty nice I think!)

2. Nelson class but in N3 arrangement style!

3. Battlecruiser P3, the BC version of the Nelsons

They are a bit longer to accommodate more engines and a second funnel



4. Conventional P3 Battlecruiser - the BC version of my conventional Nelson

5-6-7. Q2, Q3 and Q4 designs similar to the N3 but two middle turrets instead of one!

8. Battleship Design R3, based on the Richelieu preliminary and Admiral De Feo's idea

9. Quad Turret aka Richelieu Nelson variant 1:

I've used the space of the 3rd turret for a larger engine and a bit more Pom-Pom Guns



10. Last one Quad Turret Nelson variant 2:

The extra space here I've used for more secondary guns and light AA. The layout is similar to the soviet Stalingrad class Battlecrusiers

Possible prewar modernization proposal is to replace the secondary guns with 5,25inch DP-AA Guns

 

[Jemiba]

Not much more work left to do for transforming your drawing N° 4 into the KGV-class !
With two funnels it probably would have had more engine power, so highre speed than
the "conventional Nelson" (N°1).
What's still not clear to me: AFAIK the Nelson design was chosen, because with all turrets concentrated
on the focsle, the main belt could have been shorter. Why ? So the belt had to cover the gun barrel length
of the third turret, too, although in a conventional design it only had to cover the barbettes.

 

[Tzoli]

I've just played with the layouts, and many thinks Nelson ain't the most beautiful battleships, but the conventional variant sure looks better in my opinion!

 

[Tzoli]

And now the Mogami class Tone Style:

This is my all forward variant of the Mogami class Light/Heavy cruisers making similarities with the later Tone class. The idea came from one of the preliminary designs of the USN Brooklyn class Light cruisers with a 5 turret all forward arrangement. And so I though why not try to adapt this to the Japanese Mogami class? For the two extra turret front I moved the entire superstructure aft and added two extra twin 127mm AA turrets near the original place of the old aft turrets.

 

[Jemiba]

Don't know, how realistic this arrangement would have been with regards to structure and stability,
but it would have enabled to increase the aircraft facilities without sacrificing large parts of the main
armament. IIRC, the IJN made more use of their cruisers for launching recce aircraft, than other navies.

 

[Tzoli]

Well they probably would not allow to fire all of it's guns at once, but in turret salvos.
And indeed, but again Japan have the Pacific Ocean and it's islands to scout for enemy!

 

[Tzoli]

And another Nelson style all forward variant, this time of the Iowa and the South Dakota:

 

[Tzoli]

Now here is an official design, but lightly modified/improved by me:

Before the Littorio class battleships were born there was a battlecruiser design which preceeded them a few years. If built these would be like the smaller cousins of the Littorios, the same way Donkerque's to the Richelieu's.

This particular design dates back to 1933 with 26500tons displacement 4x2 343mm Cannons, 6x2 152mm Guns and 4x4 37mm AA guns. Yes, NO Long Range AA! So my version solved this problem with 8x1 90mm AA Guns. I also moved the catapult aft.
Her armour would be 240m Belt and 50mm Deck with the proposed speed of 54km/h (29knots)

The name of this design was Project 1933

 

[Tzoli]

Here is my version of an Anti H-41, 42 or 43 or the 100K ton Yamato variant British battleship a Super Lion:

She is equipped with 4x2 20inch cannons and 12x2 5,25inch AA guns, more space for the engines, though no catapult but it's space is equipped with 4 more AA turrets and 6x8 40mm Bofors AA guns. Armour would be around 42-44cm.

 

[Jemiba]

With the closed gap between the funnels abd the twin turrets, it resembles HMS Vanguard (I know,
that it was based on the Lion class, too )

 

[Tzoli]

Now a soviet behemoth:

A Soviet comparable to the H-42 Battleship.
A 4 turreted Sovietsky Soyuz basically the Project 23bis but with 12 46-47cm Guns and with 50cm Armour, basically an upgunned and uparmoured Soviet Montana. I also removed two twin 20cm Gun Turrets and put 4 more AA turrets in it's place. Seriously 4 medium/long range AA turrets for such big ship???

 

[Grey Havoc]

Keep them coming!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOd4mxqBYtA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G3jLdsTSlM

 

[Tzoli]

And the French variant:

An up gunned and armoured French Alsace with 3x4 48cm Main guns and 4x4 15cm Secondary guns (Alsace would have 3x4 38cm and 4x3 15cm) and with armour of 42-44cm

 

[Tzoli]

And here is a modern ship:

An alternative or rebuilt Shirane class DDH with 3 twin 127mm Turrets, No ASROC and two 8 tube RIM-7 Sea Sparrow Missile launcher with an enlarged hangar but smaller helideck area.
I thought it would look better this way. I've been inspired by the Tone class Heavy Cruiser of ww2.

The Original only have half the hanger but twice the helideck, two single 127mm turrets one 8 tube ASROC Launcher and one 8 tube RIM-7 Launcher.

 

[Tzoli]

Here are now two variants of mine, of the modern Soviet Sovremenny class DDG's
Variant 1:

I sacrificed the two single SA-N-12 Grizzly SAMs for another two twin 130mm AK-130 Gun turrets.
Though the long range anti air capability is lost but the the shore bombardment capability is increased dramatically as well the short and medium range AA capability.


And Variant 2:

This time I replaced the gun turrets with SA-N-12 Grizzly SAMs but instead of single launchers, these are twin, making 3 times more AA missile capacity than the originals two single launcher.

 

[Jemiba]

The dedicated AA variant to my opinion is the better idea, I'm just not sure, that fuselage depth would
allow the SAM systm to be installed instead of the gun turetts.

 

[Tzoli]

The dedicated AA variant to my opinion is the better idea, I'm just not sure, that fuselage depth would
allow the SAM systm to be installed instead of the gun turetts.

I think there is enough space but we will not know as I doubt there is a drawing showing the internal arrangements of this class

 

[Tzoli]

One of the Littorio prelimiary designs by Maricominav a Nelson style Littorio with aft Donkerque style layout:

 

[Tzoli]

The Original Ise class battleships were an improved versions of the Fusos with different turret groupings, but other than that they are the same. I however make a different arrangement of it's turrets to two groups of three twin turrets forward and back.
I wanted to give more space or more effective space to the engines. Tough my original idea was slightly different: middle turrets were superifirng and the 3rd ones are on the same level as the first facing the same direction as them, but this take too much space. I also put 4 more extra AA turrets on the "Liberated" space.

And an alternative modernization of this variant:

 

[Jemiba]

Probably preferably for placing the machinery, as you've mentioned and of course for the field of fire,
but I would expect stability problems due to the third turrets superimposed. AFAIK, the modernisation,
with fitting those large Pagoda structures already had brought CG problems to those ships.

 

[Tzoli]

Probably preferably for placing the machinery, as you've mentioned and of course for the field of fire,
but I would expect stability problems due to the third turrets superimposed. AFAIK, the modernisation,
with fitting those large Pagoda structures already had brought CG problems to those ships.

If check it closely you can see that the 2nd and 5th turrets are in only a half superfiring position as their guns needed to be elevated to turn over from one side to another and thus I saved weight and tried to issue the stability problems with them.

 

[Jemiba]

..and thus I saved weight and tried to issue the stability problems with them.

Not meant to depreciate your work ! It's just, that IIRC several sources I've read mentioned, that those
quite impressing modifications of Japanese large fightig ships in most cases had detrimental effects on
seakeeping and stability, although the added top weight was tried to compensate with large torpedo bulges.
And heavy artillery probably is the greatest contribution to top weight, where every feet of height counts.
But you know, I'm neither an aviation engineer, nor a shipbuilder !

 

[Tzoli]

..and thus I saved weight and tried to issue the stability problems with them.

Not meant to depreciate your work ! It's just, that IIRC several sources I've read mentioned, that those
quite impressing modifications of Japanese large fightig ships in most cases had detrimental effects on
seakeeping and stability, although the added top weight was tried to compensate with large torpedo bulges.
And heavy artillery probably is the greatest contribution to top weight, where every feet of height counts.
But you know, I'm neither an aviation engineer, nor a shipbuilder !

Indeed but as you can see the entire superstructure was moved closer to the centre of gravity and to where the hull was more wider