Type Spec 149: alternatives to the Grumman A-6

[AeroFranz]

hmmm...maybe that position provides the greatest separation between engine intake and probe during possible fuel sprays during disconnection? not sure...

Regarding Raywinder, sounds like a distant ancestor of SideARM.

 

[Bill S]

hmmm...maybe that position provides the greatest separation between engine intake and probe during possible fuel sprays during disconnection? not sure...

Here is the drawing of the refueling probe. By the notes it was
a bolt on type to be used only for long ranged missions

 

[Bill S]

One more, then I had better stop before this becomes the V-416 thread

Here is a drawing of the maintenance access provisions for the aircraft.

 

[Stargazer]

One more, then I had better stop before this becomes the V-416 thread

So what? I for one certainly wouldn't mind a V-416 Vigilante thread!!!

And until someone can come up with that much material on the competing projects, this is just fine!

 

[AeroFranz]

I second the notion

Thanks for the IFR probe drawing. It shows that basically it would be impossible for fuel spray during disconnect to enter the intake, unless it would miraculously follow a 90 degree trajectory with respect to the local airflow.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Just to muddy the waters a little:

Although the NAGPAW program was accepted by the Navy's' BuAer as a proprietary concept, Chance Vought learned of North American's effort and also submitted an unsolicited proposal just two months prior to the award date. Ironically, (or coincidentally?) Vought had picked the name Vigilante [sic] for their proposed aircraft.

Source:
Aerofax A-5 Vigilante by Michael Grove and Jay Miller

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

Just to muddy the waters a little:

Although the NAGPAW program was accepted by the Navy's' BuAer as a proprietary concept, Chance Vought learned of North American's effort and also submitted an unsolicited proposal just two months prior to the award date. Ironically, (or coincidentally?) Vought had picked the name Vigilante [sic] for their proposed aircraft.

Source:
Aerofax A-5 Vigilante by Michael Grove and Jay Miller

It gets more confusing. The A3J was on contract in 1955. In 1957, North American submitted a single-engine proposal that they called the Vigilante for the TS 149 requirement (the desired weight and mission were incompatible; NAA opted to bet that BuAer would prefer an airplane that met the desired weight). It looked nothing like the sleek A3J. The artwork on the cover of the proposal included an illustration of the A3J, which obviously hadn't been formally named at the time.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Some interesting dates from Grumman A-6 Intruder by Robert F Dorr.

128F drawing- twin T56 turboprops - September 1956
Requirement issued - October 1956
128M drawing - M wing twin turbojets - 27 February 1957
128M3 drawing- M wing, main gear stowed under the engine nacelles 6 March 1957
128M4 drawing - M wing, J52 engines. 16 March 1957
128N - low mounted, conventional wing, "same period"
128M2 drawing - M wing, refined layout, electronics stored aft of the crew. 14 May 1957
Letter received inviting submission. 15 May 1957
Grumman submit proposal. 19 August 1957
Grumman informed they had won. 30 December 1957
128P drawing- Largely the Intruder was we know it. 29 March 1959.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Spangenberg index files show Vought V-416 proposals in 1957.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

From Tony Buttler's American Secret Projects: Bombers, Attack Aircraft and ASW

Bell - V/STOL design (no further info)
Boeing 806-1A single engine, top inlet, supersonic design (3 view, description)
Boeing 807 - turboprop submission. (No further info)
Douglas 715 - as described above. (2 model photos, 3 view, description)
Douglas 725 - A4D-3 Skyhawk with new nose and modified cockpit (3 view, artwork, description)
Grumman G-128 (built as the A2F/A-6 Intruder)
Lockheed CL-364-2 (3 view, description)
Martin 345, 346 (no further info)
North American (no further info)
Vought V-416/A/B/C (3 views, artworks, descriptions)

 

[Pioneer]

Thank's Overscan!
You have been busy!! ;D

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Stargazer]

Bell - V/STOL design (no further info)

Could this be related to the SeaKat?

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Hi All -

Interesting early look at the evolution of the A2F Intruder:

http://cgi.ebay.com/INHOUSE-GRUMMAN-FACTORY-DESIGN-128-A2F-1-A-6-MODEL-/270741571586?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f09748802

Silly price though....

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Stargazer]

What a clean and beautiful design it was... Love it!

Here are the pictures from that page:

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the Lockheed CL-364;

http://www.unicraft.biz/

 

[Stargazer]

No, hesham, that's the Lockheed CL-364, as the caption implies.

 

[hesham]

No, hesham, that's the Lockheed CL-364, as the caption implies.

Ok,I will correct it.

 

[Nico]

I never heard of a RAY WINDER missile before.

...neither me.
Perhaps Ray Winder stood for the AIM-9C Sidewinder 1C with SARAM 8Semi-Active Radar Alternate Head)
or possibly a forgotten (and never developed) anti-radiation version?

Nico

 

[Nico]

I never heard of a RAY WINDER missile before.

Ray Winder was a passive radar homing Sidewinder from 1957, put together by John Boyles and Tom Amlie at NOTS. It generated little interest as Russian fighters generally did not use radar at the time.

I'm sorry,
I quoted and answered before scrollin all the topic
Nico

 

[CaseyKnight]

Possibly more chances than one may think!
After all the Buccaneer was designed and developed with the financial assistance of the U.S Governments Military Assistance Program (MAP)!
Also I have read that the U.S Navy officials often and freely visited the Hawker Siddeley facilities to inspect the progress of the Buccaneer development - with it being stated in some circles that HS's progress and innovation to particular problem were taken back to Grumman, who was at the time developing the A-6 Intruder!
It was said that the US Navy officials liked what they sore!!

Why didn't the Navy give the info to the other contractors?

 

[hesham]

My dear Tailspin,


do you know the proposals from Bell and North American ?.

 

[nugo]

Bell Model 2001 (a.k.a. D-2001)---Navy Attack Airplane, maybe competitor of the TS-149 specification.

 

[Pioneer]

Possibly more chances than one may think!
After all the Buccaneer was designed and developed with the financial assistance of the U.S Governments Military Assistance Program (MAP)!
Also I have read that the U.S Navy officials often and freely visited the Hawker Siddeley facilities to inspect the progress of the Buccaneer development - with it being stated in some circles that HS's progress and innovation to particular problem were taken back to Grumman, who was at the time developing the A-6 Intruder!
It was said that the US Navy officials liked what they sore!!

Why didn't the Navy give the info to the other contractors?

Sorry my friend, I just found this!

I think it was because the USN and Grumman were as thick as thieves! Plus don't quote me, but I think Grumman might have already been selected as the winner for the RFP that was Type Spec 149!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[hesham]

Bell Model 2001 (a.k.a. D-2001)---Navy Attack Airplane, maybe competitor of the TS-149 specification.

I think you are right my dear Nugo.

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

My dear Tailspin,


do you know the proposals from Bell and North American ?.

Bell D2001 and North American "Vigilante"

 

[hesham]

Wow,oh my God;


thank you very very much my dear Tailspin,amazing projects,and for NAA,in the
drawing,they called the report as 57H-424.

 

[fightingirish]

Hhmm, the Lockheed CL-364 (post#54 by hesham) and the NAA TS-149 "Vigilante" /57H-424 look very alike.

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

Hhmm, the Lockheed CL-364 (post#54 by hesham) and the NAA TS-149 "Vigilante" /57H-424 look very alike.

Yes, but differ in detail...

 

[Bill S]

V-416A&B Major Components Drawing VAHF Archives


Report 10934A Page 3 Rev 7/29/57


"Chance Vought Aircraft has been invited to participate in a design competition for an all-weather, low-level, carrier-based, two-place, attack airplane in accordance with Type Specification No. TS-149 dated 19 February 1957 as modified by Amendment No. 2 dated 24 May 1957."


"Two separate configurations will be proposed - one a twin J-52 engine airplane which meets the specification requirements and contains Contractor furnished and developed electronic equipment called out in Type Specification and Government TS-149 that the Contractor considers essential for optimum mission accomplishment. This airplane will be identified as the Model V-416A. The second configuration will be identified as the Model V-416B and will differ from the Model V-416A in that it will contain Contractor and Government furnished and developed electronic equipment which meets all the requirements call out in Type Specification TS-149."


bill

 

[Stargazer]

V-416A&B Major Components Drawing VAHF Archives

Great! More on the V-416 Vigilante earlier in this topic:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8491.msg18853.html#msg18853
(so you guys don't have to browse all 7 pages!)

Here is an attempt at enhancing the picture a bit:

 

[hesham]

From Tony Buttler's American Secret Projects: Bombers, Attack Aircraft and ASW

Bell - V/STOL design (no further info)
Boeing 806-1A single engine, top inlet, supersonic design (3 view, description)
Boeing 807 - turboprop submission. (No further info)
Douglas 715 - as described above. (2 model photos, 3 view, description)
Douglas 725 - A4D-3 Skyhawk with new nose and modified cockpit (3 view, artwork, description)
Grumman G-128 (built as the A2F/A-6 Intruder)
Lockheed CL-364-2 (3 view, description)
Martin 345, 346 (no further info)
North American (no further info)
Vought V-416/A/B/C (3 views, artworks, descriptions)

My dear Paul,


in Air Pictorial 10/1957,there was thirteen companies and not eight,so maybe those
companies were involved;


Convair,Fairchild,McDonnell,Northrop & Republic ?,for McDonnell,it was M-121.

 

[fightingirish]

voughtworks Blog - Type Spec 149 and the V-416 Vigilante

I am just posting the link, since Bill S has probably posted info and pictures earlier in this topic.

 

[Pioneer]

Just to muddy the waters a little:

Although the NAGPAW program was accepted by the Navy's' BuAer as a proprietary concept, Chance Vought learned of North American's effort and also submitted an unsolicited proposal just two months prior to the award date. Ironically, (or coincidentally?) Vought had picked the name Vigilante [sic] for their proposed aircraft.

Source:
Aerofax A-5 Vigilante by Michael Grove and Jay Miller

Has anything more been discovered regarding this unsolicited Vought 'NAGPAW' competitor??

Regards
Pioneer

 

[allysonca]

From the collection a large wood Douglas D751 that is 36 inches. Also a 1/48th with a refuel probe.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Impressive - thanks! Mark

 

[Pioneer]

Very nice find allysonca!!

Thanks for sharing

Regards
Pioneer

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Douglas D-725 was a lightly modified A-4 submitted to TS-149

http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/Douglas_Model_725_SAC_-_15_August_1957.pdf

 

[hesham]

Douglas D-725 was a lightly modified A-4 submitted to TS-149

http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/Douglas_Model_725_SAC_-_15_August_1957.pdf

Amazing find my dear Paul,and we can put them here.

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

Douglas D-725 was a lightly modified A-4 submitted to TS-149

Maybe as an non-responsive alternate, but the Douglas proposal that met the requirement was its 715.

 

[hesham]

Nice find my dear Tailspin.