Tornado Projects

Someone recently shared with me a me a copy of the Tornado GR.1 Navigation / Attack & Armaments Systems Manual, fresh from the RAF Museum archives. It is an advance issue manual so not fully complete and contained a section titled "GUIDED MISSILES - AIR-TO-GROUND", with two sub chapters titled "MARTEL AR" and "MARTEL TV". These sections were not issued at the time of the manual, so are just blank headings. A few other bits in the manual mention TV guided missiles with a note that this systems are not in use yet.

All that suggests the Tornado GR.1 was planned to use both types of Martel missile, which is a little surprising to me as the only Guided missiles I had heard of the Tornado GR.1 using were ALARM and Sea Eagle (in the case of the GR.1B). Does anyone know anything about Martel being used on the Tornado?
 
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This has been something that has been on my mind for a while, so any answer or documentation will be highly appreciated.

My reasoning regarding this is that the Martel was unpopular with the Air Staff and that by 1980 it was becoming out of date, so even though it may be considered for use on the Tornado, it is unlikely that the Air Staff viewed is a being worth the effort to do so, with the ARM role being taken over by ALARM.
 
Wyvern said:
My reasoning regarding this is that the Martel was unpopular with the Air Staff and that by 1980 it was becoming out of date, so even though it may be considered for use on the Tornado, it is unlikely that the Air Staff viewed is a being worth the effort to do so, with the ARM role being taken over by ALARM.
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The manual is listed as August 1980 (Advance Issue) amended to AL12 in January 1985. Not sure how that plays into the timeline of things.
 
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Wyvern said:
This has been something that has been on my mind for a while, so any answer or documentation will be highly appreciated.
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The stores diagram includes Air-to-Ground missiles. Based on the guided weapons page this is presumably referring to Martel missiles.
Tornado Stores.png
 

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Would make sense for the interim anti-radar missile capability. Not seeing the TV pod, but I guess that would take the place of the outboard ECM/chaff pod.
 
I'd be surprised if it was Martel in 1980 as it was...errrr...considered to be rubbish from the off. Could these be Mavericks?

From BSP4 -
In a confidential 1970 memo on the future of guided weapons the following appears:

‘Martel – this has been a disappointing weapon. Costs have risen sharply…and of course the TV missile is vulnerable to ground defences. However, there is no feasible alternative stand-off missile and we must proceed with our present commitment for 200. It is debateable whether we should place a further supplementary order, but we have several months to weigh this up.’

Obviously Martel didn’t have too many fans at the Air Staff.

Chris
 
Fact is that the French hanged Martels ARMs on their very underpowered Jaguars with mk.102 Adours; and flew that combination in one of the hottest spot on Earth (Lybia desert). As if the Jaguars weren't underpowered enough: throw into the lot 50°C and heavy Martels missiles, just in case.

And still they managed to knock off some of Ugly Ghaddafi radars, in 1986 and 1987...
 
Well they thought about putting Martel on the Black Bucks but wisely thought against it (nobody knew if a long cold soak would knacker it completely).
I don't think there were any other ARM options open for the Tornado force at that time.

Buccs still had Martel TV in 1980. By the diagram above, Tornado might have been the only Martel platform capable of actually carrying four missiles plus the link pod since the F-111K.
I suspect it was all a page holder without any actual integration work, I've never seen a photo of any Tornado prototype with a Martel for example (a Harrier GR.1 for example was trialled with two Martel ARMs).

[Curiously, while googling on this subject, it seems the 1976 Airfix kit came with four Martels with the suggested loadouts of:
RAF strike - four Martels (two underwing, two under fuselage)
RAF/German naval strike - two Martels under fuselage, four cluster bombs (paired underwing, inner pylons) and two Sparrows (outer pylons)
RAF air defence - two Sparrows, underwing inner pylons

Looks more like wishful thinking based on available plastic parts but it does dovetail with the layout Flame 2512 showed above.]
 
Hood said:
[Curiously, while googling on this subject, it seems the 1976 Airfix kit came with four Martels with the suggested loadouts of:
RAF strike - four Martels (two underwing, two under fuselage)
RAF/German naval strike - two Martels under fuselage, four cluster bombs (paired underwing, inner pylons) and two Sparrows (outer pylons)
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Wouldn't be Kormorans by any chance?

Chris
 
From the recent discussion in the AH forum, does anyone have any further details on the Tornado variants mentioned in this thread? e.g. fixed wing versions. Is this stuff just at Warton waiting to be published? There's a fair amount available on strike projects.
 
Kiltonge said:
737 tanker proposal, 1982

... the 737 proposal is designed to interest countries
such as Germany and Italy, who now plan to equip Panavia Tornadoes as
buddy-buddy tankers for long-range anti-ship missions in the Baltic and
Mediterranean, respectively.
Click to expand...

Also some interesting notes about BA 757s being candidates as contingency tankers for the RAF:

At 1980 prices, the cost of modifying 39 757s is estimated at
$19 million; add 39 pods for $11 million, plus spares, but excluding
two RAF 757s
Click to expand...

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1982/1982 - 0988.html
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737_tanker_mrca-jpeg.486563
 
Flame2512 said:
Someone recently shared with me a me a copy of the Tornado GR.1 Navigation / Attack & Armaments Systems Manual, fresh from the RAF Museum archives. It is an advance issue manual so not fully complete and contained a section titled "GUIDED MISSILES - AIR-TO-GROUND", with two sub chapters titled "MARTEL AR" and "MARTEL TV". These sections were not issued at the time of the manual, so are just blank headings. A few other bits in the manual mention TV guided missiles with a note that this systems are not in use yet.

All that suggests the Tornado GR.1 was planned to use both types of Martel missile, which is a little surprising to me as the only Guided missiles I had heard of the Tornado GR.1 using were ALARM and Sea Eagle (in the case of the GR.1B). Does anyone know anything about Martel being used on the Tornado?
Click to expand...

I've found a Panavia sales brochure listing Martel as one of the Tornado's weapons, so it certainly seems like it was planned / considered at one point. I still doubt it was ever actually integrated though.
Tornado Brochure Weapons.png
 
Does anyone know anything further about the Pratt&Whitney JTF16 turbofan mentioned in this advertisement that was posted earlier in this thread?

I've had a search and a look around Google, but can't seem to find anything about it
 

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kaiserbill said:
Does anyone know anything further about the Pratt&Whitney JTF16 turbofan mentioned in this advertisement that was posted earlier in this thread?

I've had a search and a look around Google, but can't seem to find anything about it
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s-l1600.jpg
 
That's great..thanks GTX.
So a demonstrator engine was built.
I don't suppose any technical details were ever released?
Such as size and thrust?
It's certainly considerably smaller than the TF30.

The advert implies it is in "the 10 000lb class", the same as the TF30 P6.. but that engine model actually pushed out 11250lbs.

I was wondering whether P&W were aiming for a non afterburning JTF16 for the MRCA, but with a higher dry thrust than the RB199?

It's worth remembering that the majority of RB199 engines built barely managed much over 9000lbs in dry thrust, albeit it must be said that the engine itself was very compact.
 
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Nearly all aero-engines sample/reference/are influenced by forebears. Few are from a wholly blank sheet of paper. So, risk in the new design is mitigated. As soon as the iteration, airframe: engine settled for MRCA as 2xspace/weight/dry-wet thrust, late-1969, the User Buyer Agency could go out to qualified Bidders...which were RR, GE, P&W. SNECMA was unwanted, FIAT-Avio, Piaggio, M.A.N, KHD were seen as licensee/adaptors, not as Prime Design Authority. GE decided their best interests lay in collaboration with SNECMA (and, becoming CF6-80, CFM56...how true), so the competition became Pratt v RR. It soon became evident that a techno-evaluation would not lead to consensus: neither scheme was evidently lower risk/higher capability. Nor could selection, in 1970, be cost-driven, because all knew that no-one had a clue. (Prime airframe and Prime engine R&D ceiling prices could not be agreed until 1972, even then with wriggle room).

So, selection as between paper RB199 and paper JTF16 came down to worksharing arrangements to allocate juicy, high-tech ("noble") work to (by then) FRG and Italy. RR was deemed to make a better Offer there.

You will find assertions that it was all a fix, that Pratt never doubted that UK would only stay onboard the collaboration if RR was Prime. Well, so did the UK avionics industry, led by GEC-Marconi and Ferranti, who simply ignored Project Procurement Rules and bid solo-UK R&D, cost-plus for the radar (mapping+TFR). So they were thrown out, fired 500 staff, and watched incredulously as NA Autonetics and Texas Insts. fought it out.
 
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Briefly, and not to go off topic ... the other thing to note is that the advert states the "JTF16 is an experimental demonstrator engine built under contract with the US Air force".
Was this contract aimed at any US project in particular, apart from being thrown into the MRCA ring?
 
Does anyone have any information about the trials conducted by the Tornado with the Alenia-Marconi PGM-500 and PGM-2000 weapons? Apparently these guided weapons were tested on the Tornado at Boscombe Down but little information seems to exist about them

Edit: I found a site which discusses the type: http://sistemasdearmas.com.br/pgm/hakim.html
 
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Does anyone have any information about the AGM-65 Maverick being used by the Tornado? Panavia repeatedly mention the Maverick in their marketing material for the Tornado. In addition various websites / books about the Tornado also mention the Maverick, but they typically don't provide any real detail, beyond just having it in a list of weapons the Tornado could use.

However, after much looking I've never been able to find a photograph of a Tornado carrying a Maverick, or confirmation that any country's air force used the Maverick on their Tornadoes. If it was actively used by one of the Tornado's operators I would have expected to have found at least one photograph by now. Is it just a theoretical capability which was never actually used?
 
www.key.aero

Tornados - Now and the future

I had a few questions pop into my head as I was searching for information on the latest updates in the world of the Tonka. I'd like to see if we can use our collective mind and come up with a complete list of current stores carried by the various aircraft still in service with the four operator...
www.key.aero www.key.aero
 
Morning all,

I was treated (or in Geordie, tret) yesterday to a visit to Farnborough Air Sciences Trust. Fantastic place and lovely volunteers.

Amongst the gobsmacking exhibits was this Tornado/P.1216 hybrid. It came from RAE Bedford apparently and aside from that, I know nowt.

Looks like the Tornado was in (re)heat, escaped and met an amorous P1216.

I have a fertile imagination but I would never have come up with a Warton/Kingston mixed marriage. Or is some-one taking the Mickey?

Chris
Twin-boom Tornado.png
 
Ah, Mike, ping me a message. I owe you a pint or two.

Chris
 
Mike Pryce said:
Apparently some bloke wrote a book on it according to them.
Click to expand...

Said bloke's old website is now advertising "Cheap Harrier Escorts". Very pretty girls but none of them twin-boomed or swept-winged.
 
Flame2512 said:
Does anyone have any information about the AGM-65 Maverick being used by the Tornado? Panavia repeatedly mention the Maverick in their marketing material for the Tornado. In addition various websites / books about the Tornado also mention the Maverick, but they typically don't provide any real detail, beyond just having it in a list of weapons the Tornado could use.

However, after much looking I've never been able to find a photograph of a Tornado carrying a Maverick, or confirmation that any country's air force used the Maverick on their Tornadoes. If it was actively used by one of the Tornado's operators I would have expected to have found at least one photograph by now. Is it just a theoretical capability which was never actually used?
Click to expand...

RAF - Fit tests were made following purchase of Maverick for Harrier GR7, but never flown or used. Arrival of DMB a few years later removed any potential need.
Italy - No. Maverick was purchased for AV-8B but never used on Tornado or AMX
Germany - No. They did have Maverick for F-4F but long since retired. Never on Tornado.
Saudi - Not sure. But I think unlikely. Saudi tended to follow UK lead on weapons.

In terms of powered weapons for Tornado GR/ECR it was Sidewinder, Asraam, IRIS-T, HARM, ALARM, AARGM, Brimstone, Kormoran, Sea Eagle, Storm Shadow and Taurus. There is also LaGS, the German Laser Guided Sidewinder for ground targets but I'm not sure if that has actually entered service or even been ordered. I've never seen any LaGS actually on a Tornado, and Germany appears to be about to order Brimstone...
 
timmymagic said:
RAF - Fit tests were made following purchase of Maverick for Harrier GR7, but never flown or used. Arrival of DMB a few years later removed any potential need.
Italy - No. Maverick was purchased for AV-8B but never used on Tornado or AMX
Germany - No. They did have Maverick for F-4F but long since retired. Never on Tornado.
Saudi - Not sure. But I think unlikely. Saudi tended to follow UK lead on weapons.

In terms of powered weapons for Tornado GR/ECR it was Sidewinder, Asraam, IRIS-T, HARM, ALARM, AARGM, Brimstone, Kormoran, Sea Eagle, Storm Shadow and Taurus. There is also LaGS, the German Laser Guided Sidewinder for ground targets but I'm not sure if that has actually entered service or even been ordered. I've never seen any LaGS actually on a Tornado, and Germany appears to be about to order Brimstone...
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timmymagic
You forgot the JDAM
Italian IDS
131992899_3550996744979786_5407401882300854777_n.jpg

1691096450178.png

German
14184184262_b10d09f3c5_b.jpg
 

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