The Franco-Belgian front holds 1940: consequences for the RAF?

[tomo pauk]

Something I've been thinking about: did the British aero industry lose some supplies of manufactured parts or raw materials from France when it was lost?

Probably nothing of note.

It was the French aero industry that struggled to deliver important parts of aircraft, so we have the often-mentioned case of aircraft delivered without propellers. France was eager to import much greater % of the aircraft from the US than the UK. British aero industry out-produced German counterpart when it was about the raw number of aircraft by some 50% in 1940; unfortunately, in 1940 the British aero industry delivered a lot of aircraft that were badly behind the curve, so the effect of that output was smaller than it should've been.
In 1941, UK was out-producing Germany by some 70%, and already in 1939 they were almost matching the German production, despite the German earlier re-armament. French were eager to have Merlins installed on many of their aircraft, and were on the top place to receive Spitfires once there was enough of them for the British needs.

This also kills the argument that British aero engines were hand-produced - a thing that our friends across the pond have hard time digesting for the last 75-80 years

 

[tomo pauk]

Gold, Uranium, pilots, patents

UK was not in possession of the French gold in 1940, so no. There was no perceived need for uranium in the UK, so no again; UK could've gotten the uranium from the Belgian colonial mines if they wanted it.
Neither pilots nor patents were 'manufactured parts or raw materials'.

 

[Elan Vital]

Probably nothing of note.

It was the French aero industry that struggled to deliver important parts of aircraft, so we have the often-mentioned case of aircraft delivered without propellers. France was eager to import much greater % of the aircraft from the US than the UK. British aero industry out-produced German counterpart when it was about the raw number of aircraft by some 50% in 1940; unfortunately, in 1940 the British aero industry delivered a lot of aircraft that were badly behind the curve, so the effect of that output was smaller than it should've been.
In 1941, UK was out-producing Germany by some 70%, and already in 1939 they were almost matching the German production, despite the German earlier re-armament. French were eager to have Merlins installed on many of their aircraft, and were on the top place to receive Spitfires once there was enough of them for the British needs.

Alright. I was mostly wondering if the British had French sources for the odd auxiliary system or something, as could usually happen with subcontractors.

I wasn't aware of excess Spitfire production to be delivered to France. I recall a panic order in June for Hurricanes, but nothing else. Regarding Merlins, things are not completely clear and categorical, but my understanding is that by mid 1940 the French had abandonned any prospects of getting Merlins, with the D521 being cancelled and the Amiot 356 also apparently having been cancelled, with some Merlins waiting in France to be repatriated to the UK when the Germans attacked. The plan to produce Merlins at Fordair had apparently been abandoned with the company reinforcing the Hispano-Suiza V12 industrial base (with US tooling to be delivered specifically for this engine).
The opportunity had passed, at least until the British and Packard can crank out excess Merlins. With the war on, France had decided to abandon almost all foreign engine licencing projects (save for the a few Hercules) to focus on domestic designs. Not for a lack of interest though.

UK was not in possession of the French gold in 1940, so no. There was no perceived need for uranium in the UK, so no again; UK could've gotten the uranium from the Belgian colonial mines if they wanted it.
Neither pilots nor patents were 'manufactured parts or raw materials'.

In any case, France was facing a temporary shortage of pilots in 1940 until the expanded training program can truly kick in, so they would probably not be be used to plug holes in the RAF's pilot pool.

 

[EwenS]

The story of the French and the Merlin is contained in this article. You need to scan down the page a bit to find it.

Many factories built the Merlin

PRODUCTION ROLLS-ROYCE MERLIN By the mid-1930s, it was becoming...

www.key.aero

Note Henry Ford was anti-British and, having scuppered French production of the Merlin by one if his subsidiaries, then refused to manufacture them in the USA so leaving the door open to Packard.

Ford Motor Company Ltd registered in Britain was only partly owned by Henry Ford /Ford USA with the rest of its capital listed on the London Stock Exchange. Its Chairmain, Sir Percival Perry, got to run it as a separate entity and was one of the few people that got to say "no" to Henry Ford. It was that autonomy that allowed Ford of Britain to become involved in Merlin production.

 

[Elan Vital]

The story of the French and the Merlin is contained in this article. You need to scan down the page a bit to find it.

Many factories built the Merlin

PRODUCTION ROLLS-ROYCE MERLIN By the mid-1930s, it was becoming...

www.key.aero

Note Henry Ford was anti-British and, having scuppered French production of the Merlin by one if his subsidiaries, then refused to manufacture them in the USA so leaving the door open to Packard.

Ford Motor Company Ltd registered in Britain was only partly owned by Henry Ford /Ford USA with the rest of its capital listed on the London Stock Exchange. Its Chairmain, Sir Percival Perry, got to run it as a separate entity and was one of the few people that got to say "no" to Henry Ford. It was that autonomy that allowed Ford of Britain to become involved in Merlin production.

Curiously, Henry Ford instead showed interest in producing the Hispano-Suiza (specifically the 12Z), although the US administration would forbid any production of foreign engines in June 1940, save for the Merlin. Whether that order would have happened with France not falling is unclear, and we will never know if the Ford HS-12Z would have eventually happened. Ford was rather quick to embark on its own V12 after all.

 

[tomo pauk]

I wasn't aware of excess Spitfire production to be delivered to France.

France was no.1 on the export Spitfires' priority list, dated April 1940. For example, Belgium was at no.2, Yugoslavia at no.8, and Iran at no.12.

 

[Elan Vital]

France was no.1 on the export Spitfires' priority list, dated April 1940. For example, Belgium was at no.2, Yugoslavia at no.8, and Iran at no.12.

Very interesting. This could cover some performance gaps compared to modern French airframes due to the greater development potential of the Merlin and bolster numbers, at least until local production can finally catch up with requirements.

 

[Elan Vital]

I recently got into the rabbit hole of Anglo-French coop papers at the National Archives, CAB 85 files.

The CAB 85-9 and -10 in particular were talking about coop in the field of aviation, and this is where I learnt that the plans to provide Merlins to France were still on (and they were talking about the Merlins in France that should be sent back home to equip RAF aircrafts to send back to France given the risk of them falling into German hands otherwise).
It turns out that given the time it would take for the French Fordair and SIGMA companies to license produce British engines with normal support from Rolls-Royce and Bristol, it was decided to develop the production of british engines independently of british sources, which would delay the start of production to late 1941.
For Fordair, it was decided to abandon the Merlin since it might be outdated by then, and the Vulture was suggested instead.
For the SIGMA, it was suggested to go forward with the Hercules 6 SM instead of the 3 SM, for production starting in October 1941.

Getting Merlins for France in numbers was still on the table though, but not really from the British, instead from the US. The British AND French were involved in the proposals of US production of the Merlin and agreed on a distribution of the production.

There seems to have been extensive cooperation with exchanges and materials and plans to exchange surplus production in either country (Rotol propellers for France, French instruments for the British), and a plan to set up a joint experimental base for inspecting and testing aircrafts by both countries.

Oh, and it does confirm the joint production line of medium caliber aircraft machineguns was to be installed in the UK. But in May 1940, the loss of Belgium and increases in British aircraft production forced them to focus on .303 and rely on the US instead. The French were ready to pick the caliber the British chose, so it seems the 13.2/12.7 debate wasn't an issue.

 

[Archibald]

So Ford kinda had three aero V-12s in the pipeline circa 1940
-their own design (can't remember its name)
-the 12Z
-Merlin