The F-35 No Holds Barred topic

LowObservable said:
+1 Arjen. I thought everyone had forgotten about Amalrik.

Yes in 1980 shortly after the Soviet's invaded Afganistan Reagan, Thatcher, et al, should have based US & NATO defense and foreign policy completely on this man's opinion actually guttting the militaries withdrawing from the global stage and waiting for the 'inevitable' Soviet collapse.

That said it sure sounds like the 'collapse rapidly arriving after confrontation with reality' as being a lot like the reality created by the US defense build up and concerted anti Soviet global efforts in the 80's. I agree he did predict what would happen predicated on the policy of the 80's, the concerted political, military AND economic effort to leave the USSR on the ash heap of history.

But leaving Cold War history aside (doubtful we will ever agree on this) my orignal post centered around my disgust with the slowdown and cancellations of advanced strategic weapon systems under McNamara. We can debate whether this prolonged the Cold War maybe on another thread?
 
LowObservable said:
While he did not do any engineering on the F-16 (and does not IIRC claim to have done so), I have never heard anyone who was there at the time dispute the fact that he was a member of the group that developed the requirement, along with Boyd, Riccioni and the engineers, such as Hillaker and Begin. He was the group's "inside man" at OSD.
Helping to come up with a requirement is a LONG way away from "designing" a plane.

Notice that he had never corrected a reporter stating that he helped to design the A-10/F-16?

If helping to come up with an RFP equates to "designing" a plane, why has he never got credit for the F-18 since the YF-17 was designed for the LWF program along with the YF-16?

btw, Did you notice that he does not like almost everything about the A-10?

When asked what he would do to upgrade or change the A-10 design, Pierre Sprey, who helped design both the F-16 and A-10, said, “In a lot of ways, the A-10 was actually a disappointment to me when it came out, in three areas.”

Those three areas? Thrust, maneuverability and size. Sprey would like to see an aircraft with increased thrust and a tighter turn, allowing the plane to get out of dangerous situations while reducing the time needed between attack runs.

Sprey would also like to see a new design with a smaller body.

“It’s too damn big,” Sprey said. “To me, that was a crushing disappointment because I see that in terms of vulnerability.”

Other improvements could be made with existing technologies, such as lighter armor, newer engines and different kinds of ammunition for the A-10’s famous 30mm cannon. The latter could also be tweaked to accelerate the rate of fire.

“Those seven barrels take a little time to get up to rate,” Sprey explained. “In general, the earliest rounds are the most effective, so if you can get to rate instantly or very close to it, it would increase the effectiveness of the gun at no extra cost or rate of ammunition.

Very simple things like that can add up to major improvements and a much better airplane,” Sprey concluded.

Does he honestly think that all those things would be "Very Simple"???

Yeah, he's a designer all right :eek:
 
They are very simple if they are done at the requirements stage (eg "what he would do to upgrade or change the design").


Actually, to say that someone was influential in devising requirements for a successful system is a big deal. As is apparent to anyone who knows anything about the military aviation business, if the requirements suck the airplane will suck too, absent extraordinary skill or luck.


In particular, requirements drive cost - and in certain cases (cough) the killer fallacy has been the promise to control cost to quasi-arbitrary levels after the requirements have been set.


Anyone who works out a realistic set of requirements and gets and maintains customer buy-in to same has certainly helped the design process, big time.
 
LowObservable said:
They are very simple if they are done at the requirements stage (eg "what he would do to upgrade or change the design").

That shows his complete lack of involvement in the design process. To change almost everything about the A-10 and call it "very simple" is laughable at best.

If I go to a car company and give it a spec, do I get to take credit for the car that they make to meet the spec? Of course not.

Anyone who works out a realistic set of requirements and gets and maintains customer buy-in to same has certainly helped the design process, big time.
The key word is "realistic". Note that the F-16 did not stay a LWF when it came to actually being used . It gained BVR missiles, a radar, complex electronics, etc.

Also of note is that what the Fighter Mafia pushed for never came to be. The F-15 remained America's best fighter of record (no A2A kills), the F-16 became multi-role (along with the F-15), they hate the F-22/35 programs as they are "too complex", he does not like the A-10 and it's becoming more complex.

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Documents/2008/February%202008/0208reformers.pdf
 
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Does Jack Frye get some credit for going to Douglas for a new airliner, when Boeing wouldn't give him a delivery date? Do Trippe and Lindbergh get credit get credit for jumpstarting the Falcon series? Yes in both cases. [/font]

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]It is also crucial to the F-16's history that was not sized around Sparrows and an APG-63-sized (or even F-4C-type) radar. The BVR came later when the technology permitted it.[/font]
 
A quick Google check and the term "designer" was not associated with any of those three.

I think this should be the end of it:

While working on the F-X, Boyd met Pierre Sprey, a weapons system analyst on the OASD/SA staff, whose background was similar to [Alain] Enthoven’s but much less distinguished. By his own account, Sprey was a dilettante with an engineering degree but no military experience. After graduation from Yale, Sprey became a research analyst at the Grumman Aircraft Corporation for space and commercial transportation projects. He came to OSD/SA in 1966, where he declared himself an expert on military fighter aircraft, despite his lack of experience. Sprey admitted being a gadfly, a nuisance, and an automatic opponent of any program he was not a part of.

http://etd.auburn.edu/etd/bitstream/handle/10415/595/MICHEL_III_55.pdf
 
So Sprey has in fact never claimed to be a designer and indeed is on the record as saying the opposite.


Not sure, though, where the author - who appears to have one book and one dissertation to his credit -gets the "declared himself an expert". There is an oral history source... Sprey has a sarcastic side.


The paper is revisionist when it comes to the Fighter Mafia and the F-16. This results in a curious "then a miracle occurs" transition between F-XX and LWF. Puzzling and contrary to most accounts of those who were there at the time.
 
sferrin said:
Sundog said:
Having said that, the F-35 will be a good replacement for the F-117. It will however, be a poor dogfighter

Do you have any evidence of this?

Its big and heavy for a single engined fighter. Modest thrust to weight ratio. High wing loading, no thrust vectoring, draggy chubby airframe (albeit with some advantages of internal weapons) constant weight issues, heat issues...range issues...poor rearward visibility...helmet problems (disoriented pilots, refresh issues) over-reliance on technology and avionics to compensate for airframe shortcomings...millions of lines of programming and electronics that could develop glitches and could be a problem in real world combat and attrition situations. Do you really think there are going to be good programmers out in the field to fix these issues when they come up? I'm pro-technology, not anti-tech as some have made comments about the f-35s detractors as being "anti tech", I'm far from it. Its just that the f-35 is an example of a poorly thought concept run amok and the faith that enough tech loaded into one plane will allow it to do everything that 2 or three aircraft would do even better (and I'm not talking about legacy aircraft but all new designs). A lightweight air fighter, a ground attack aircraft, and a stovl. Possibly sharing an engine and avionics but better shaped for their own individual role. The F-35 is becoming so expensive because it is such a poor concept that more money is needed to allow it to do the role of 2-3 seperate airplanes, but none very well. The real problem is greed. The contractors wanted only one expensive aircraft. Why not have 2-3 that are more capable? Put more people to work, whats wrong with that approach?
 
Would program people be briefing "maneuverability is irrelevant" if the F-35 could out-turn/out-accelerate everything else except the F-22?


As it has been put here:


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,537.msg52541.html#msg52541


The key thing to understand about the F-35 is it will achieve its air to air capability not by aerodynamics but by digital systems. It will be the first high angle off bore sight (HOBS) fighter and as such will be able to defeat ANY and I mean ANY (F-22 included) preceding fighter in a within visual range (WVR) 'dogfight'. It will do this because its missiles will do the turning enabling it to retain high energy and engage targets at up to 180 degrees off boresight (ie full spherical engagement).When the F-35 emerges from 2020 in the Block V and higher configuration carrying at least 8 JDRADMs it will be even more capable.

Eat that naysayers! Eight JDRADMs! Block 5 in 2020. You read it here first.
 
LowObservable said:
There may come a point in DEW development where that's a good idea.
amen to big DEW gunships & cheap small UCAS.
 
LowObservable said:
Would program people be briefing "maneuverability is irrelevant" if the F-35 could out-turn/out-accelerate everything else except the F-22?


As it has been put here:


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,537.msg52541.html#msg52541


The key thing to understand about the F-35 is it will achieve its air to air capability not by aerodynamics but by digital systems. It will be the first high angle off bore sight (HOBS) fighter and as such will be able to defeat ANY and I mean ANY (F-22 included) preceding fighter in a within visual range (WVR) 'dogfight'. It will do this because its missiles will do the turning enabling it to retain high energy and engage targets at up to 180 degrees off boresight (ie full spherical engagement).When the F-35 emerges from 2020 in the Block V and higher configuration carrying at least 8 JDRADMs it will be even more capable.

Eat that naysayers! Eight JDRADMs! Block 5 in 2020. You read it here first.

Eight JDRAMs, I understand its called Next Generation Missile (NGM) now, in enclosed weapon pods (EWP) or attached to external hard points? Are the 182 rounds for the internal 25mm GAU-22/A cannon sufficient? Doesn't the F-16 carry 511 rounds? Will the F-35 need to be fitted with an external gun pod?
 
kcran567 said:
Its big and heavy for a single engined fighter. Modest thrust to weight ratio. High wing loading, no thrust vectoring, draggy chubby airframe (albeit with some advantages of internal weapons) constant weight issues, heat issues...range issues...poor rearward visibility...helmet problems (disoriented pilots, refresh issues) over-reliance on technology and avionics to compensate for airframe shortcomings...millions of lines of programming and electronics that could develop glitches and could be a problem in real world combat and attrition situations.

Are you serious? Why don't you also complain about the colour.

Most of what you have listed is either incorrect, irrelevant, already disproven or also affects just about every other modern combat aircraft... :eek:
 
It really amuses me how, based upon the comments regularly posted, some of those here have absolute no clue about the way modern Air Forces operate or how modern air combat works. I am sure that some of you obviously think the world or WWI dogfights is still the de rigour for aerial combat. ::)

I really wish some of you would just come out and be honest in your dislike of the F-35. For many of you, the options would boil down to one of the following (if you are honest ::) ):

  • It's American
  • It's from Lockheed
  • It's not the F-22
  • I really just want the <insert here alternate aircraft> regardless of facts...
  • It's not as good as <Insert here cancelled Project> would have been...
Coming up with all these so-called justifications as to why the F-35 is a failure is just plain ridiculous. Why not try some honesty for a change? B)


EDIT: Forgot one option.
 
GTX said:
It really amuses me how, based upon the comments regularly posted, some of those here have absolute no clue about the way modern Air Forces operate or how modern air combat works. I am sure that some of you obviously think the world or WWI dogfights is still the de rigour for aerial combat. ::)

I really wish some of you would just come out and be honest in your dislike of the F-35. For many of you, the options would boil down to one of the following (if you are honest ::) ):

  • It's American
  • It's from Lockheed
  • It's not the F-22
  • It's not as good as <Insert here cancelled Project>
Coming up with all these so-called justifications as to why the F-35 is a failure is just plain ridiculous. Why not try some honesty for a change? B)

In the future all wars will be decided by each country sending one fighter in a kind of 'gladitorial' combat one on one with gun only all electronics shut off. ::)
 
Triton said:
jsport said:
Why not a FB-1B Lancer as a bomber escort. :p

Are you referring to the Boeing B-1R proposal, jsport?

"B-1R Video"
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6287.0.html
Thank you for posting Triton and did know about.. but didn't wanted to mention the "R" as was just joking.. but since you caught... There was a R model on the What if Forum also..
 
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,537.msg207273.html#msg207273

Await with interest a detailed critique of the Rand report... It might be as exciting and original as the review of Bogdan's 2012 AFA speech:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,537.msg161329.html#msg161329

That went into a lot of detail about how evil media reptiles had distorted Bogdan's comments to whip up a scandal, remember? And its dazzling insight was SO confirmed by Bogdan one year later:

I stood up here a year ago and I threw a hand grenade into the crowd.

http://www.af.mil/Portals/1/documents/af%20events/AFALtGenBogdan.pdf
 
"Norway says F-35 jet on track; keeping eye on costs"
by Andrea Shalal-Esa
WASHINGTON Thu Jan 9, 2014 8:07pm EST

Source:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/10/us-lockheed-fighter-norway-idUSBREA0903B20140110

(Reuters) - Norway's defense minister on Thursday said the Lockheed Martin Corp F-35 fighter program is on the right track after a major restructuring in 2010, with the cost of the new stealth warplane coming down and most technical issues solved.

But Ine Eriksen Søreide, who became defense minister in October, told Reuters that Norway was keeping a close eye on the program's costs, software development, prospects for industrial participation by Norwegian industry, and how the planes will be serviced once they are delivered to Europe.

"We have concluded that these planes are the best ones for us. There is nothing in the development over the past couple of years that has shaken that decision," she said. "At the same time, it's a huge investment and it's definitely also something that will have consequences for the rest of our armed forces."

Norway is one of eight countries that helped the United States develop the new radar-evading warplane. Norway has ordered 16 of the 52 jets it plans to buy in coming years, with the first jets to be delivered in 2017, a year earlier than planned, Soreide told Reuters during a visit to Washington.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is the Pentagon's costliest arms program. The U.S. military plans to spend $392 billion to develop the plane and buy 2,443 jets for the U.S. Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy over coming decades, although many analysts expect that number to decline amid budget cuts.

Soreide said she hoped that the United States and the other countries developing the F-35 would decide to adopt Norway's Joint Strike Missile for use on later versions of the plane.

She said a decision should be made over the next year to 18 months about integration of the missile, which the Norwegian government and its lawmakers hope will give Norwegian firms a bigger stake in the overall F-35 program.

Air Force Lieutenant General Chris Bogdan, the F-35 program chief, told Soreide during a meeting on Thursday that Norway was making good progress on developing and testing the missile, and it could be among the first partner-developed weapons to be integrated into the plane, spokesman Joe DellaVedova said.

He said a decision on whether to adopt the Norwegian missile for the jet would be made by the United States, Norway and the other partners on the program: Britain, Italy, Turkey, Australia, Denmark, Canada and the Netherlands.

Soreide said most of the technical issues facing the F-35 had been or were being solved, but additional problems could arise in software and other areas as the new warplane wraps up development and testing.

She said the program also needed to work out plans for maintaining and repairing the planes on a regional basis once they were delivered. Britain and Norway have signed an agreement to work on servicing the planes together, but are still working out the details, she said.

"We can't depend on going to the United States each time to sustain the planes," she said. "If this is not in place, many partners will have trouble phasing in the new planes."

(Reporting by Andrea Shalal-; Editing by Leslie AdlerEsa)
 
Bill,

I am so glad you are hanging out for my analysis. I must admit that i am blushing that you care about my thoughts so much. ;)

So sorry to have delayed you but sometimes real life and work get in the way. Besides the Rand report in question (including the supporting documentation) is really quite a dry, boring read. In fact, I suspect the only reason it even gets a mention is due to the way people like you get all excited whenever you think you have another nugget of negative JSF publicity. ::)

Now as to the report itself...

Well, first up one might question whether there might be an agenda behind it. You know, the sort of service rivalry thing where one service (the USAF in this case) doesn't want to be dragged into another Joint program in the future. If that were the case , then this report certainly helps the case. Now, I am not saying that this is the case here, but anyone who has experienced the sort of inter service rivalry that does exist wouldn't be surprised. Oops...there I go slipping into the world of conspiracy theories..happens when playing with some of the anti-F-35 crowd... ;D

More to the point though, one has to question the validity of much of the analysis. For example, the data-cutoff point for the report was November 2011 and indeed in some cases July 2008! It even makes reference to TFX data which in some cases 40+ yrs old. Imagine using similar criteria to analyse other things? For example, imagine if we used 40+ yr old data when assessing modern cars…or portable music systems…or computers... ::)

Equally dubious is the fact that they had to resort to "notional" (read "imaginary") single service platforms to compare to. One could just as easily concoct a scenario whereby such single service platforms run into all sorts of problems. Would this be any more accurate? Who knows? After all, we are into the realm of what if scenarios where just about anything is possible. B)

Oh, I am sure you will point to the data used in the paper. Well, when it comes to the cost growth analysis (perhaps, the major area of focus), I would argue that only two of their so-called "Joint" programs are really that relevant. These being the JSF and to a lesser degree the V-22 (remembering that this is/was a radical development that is/was subject to its own sorry saga. It was also fielded in nowhere near the numbers originally hoped for or with the range of services targeted). I would argue that neither the JPATS or JSTARS qualify as real "Joint" programs despite the use of the word in their name. Please feel free to disagree...

Now, when it comes to the analysis of operating costs,and especially that of the F-35 (since, let's be honest, that is all you are really focused upon) we see that they say that "As of this writing, it is not clear how common the mission systems, avionics, software, and engine will be among the three service variants because many of these items are still under development or continue to evolve." Now, given the items listed constitute some of the most significant cost drivers (for example, on the F-22, the breakdown between airframe, propulsion, avionics and other is something like 20% Airframe, 17% Propulsion, 50% Avionics and 13% other - note that I use the F-22 as a example since I know you would despite any numbers I reference for the F-35 ::) ), I would think that they may have a significant influence on the outcomes of any such analysis. Especially when one considers that the Avionics between the three F-35 variants is identical and that the propulsion system is largely identical (the exception being the lift system elements, though let's remember that the core F-135 engine is still identical). Moreover, let's once again remember that as of the writing of this report they were basing it upon limited data and limited real flying hours. A lot has changed in the 2 - 3 yrs since then...and a lot more will happen in the 30+years that the F-35 is expected to be operating in the future. ;D

Now let's look at the other key point the report made a big deal about. The impact upon the Industrial Base of joint programs and especially the "winner takes all" scenario we are seeing here. I especially love it when they use emotive language such as "Had the Air Force and Navy relied exclusively on a single joint fighter other than the F-86, it might not have been able to respond quickly to the unanticipated new threat posed by the MiG-15." Yet again, I will simply point out that such what-iffing is risky to say the least. All sorts of equally feasible scenarios and outcomes can be derived and all are equally likely/unlikely... ::)

But moving away from that, I am sure we would all love to go back to the good old days of the 1940s and 1950s where we had dozens of aerospace companies all producing new platforms many of which entered service every few years. Are...nostalgia is a wonderful thing. ***SNAP!!!*** reality bubble burst :eek: . Sorry but times have changed. Whether we like it or not, multiple companies and multiple independent programs just cannot be supported any more. It is simply not economically palatable either for the Governments, the Services or indeed the companies themselves. This is why the mergers/acquisitions and closures occurred. It is simply economic reality.

Moreover, it is also a fantasy to assume that having single service platforms (as opposed to Joint) would help the Industrial Base anymore. After all, this would only work if the different, single service platforms were developed by different companies. It could however be just as likely that one single company wins them all(after all, Lockheed won both the F-22 and the F-35). Unless one prevents companies from entering into the competitions or even more radically, dictated which company winds what ( there goes the Free market!), one can simply not guarantee this wont occur.

Is that enough for you? ;)

Now, I am sure you will disagree with everything I have written. I don't really care though. This paper does not have any impact upon the reality that the F-35 is here to stay and will continue into the future with greater numbers and more customers. ;D To make a big deal of it is just as relevant as those who still bemoan the passing of the TSR.2 or the F-111 or other examples. ::)
 
LowObservable said:
It might be as exciting and original as the review of Bogdan's 2012 AFA speech:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,537.msg161329.html#msg161329

That went into a lot of detail about how evil media reptiles had distorted Bogdan's comments to whip up a scandal, remember?

I don't think I used the word "Reptiles" once...but if that is what you feel... ;)

I am perfectly happy to stand by what I have written and in fact, I am glad you raised it again. I have also had face-to-face meetings with Chris Bogdan since then and have discussed what he said and why. Have you? ::)
 
on the F-22, the breakdown between airframe, propulsion, avionics and other is something like 20% Airframe, 17% Propulsion, 50% Avionics and 13% other

That's quite dramatic. Source for that? Acquisition or LCC? If that's correct, that argument for a JSF-style joint program in the future still becomes weak - why not develop mission-tailored platforms with common avionics modules? If it's not correct or can't be sourced, I will be shocked, shocked I tell you.

In any case, arguing that the cost comparisons are wrong, on that basis, is arguing about the future. The cost growth to date is real and historical (I was surprised myself to see how much greater the growth trend was over F-22). If Rand's assumptions are faulty then we will see costs fall below predictions.

As for the "notional" single-service programs, suggesting that Rand avoided "a scenario whereby such single service platforms run into all sorts of problems" is of course plain wrong. Rand used historical cost growth rates for single-service programs and thereby accounted for such problems.

I didn't read the report as making "a big deal" about industrial base. It is a five-page chapter found after the main study.

As for the outdated bit: Rand used the 2010 SAR because that was the latest official and unclassified data when they started. Had they used the 2011 SAR the F-35 would have come off even worse, because that was the SAR that reflected the true state that the program got itself into.

Say hi to the General for me...
 
The RAND report, Do Joint Fighter Programs Save Money?, also has this interesting observation:

Joint aircraft programs could potentially increase operational and strategic risk to warfighters. Having a variety of fighter platform types across service inventories provides a hedge against design flaws and maintenance and safety issues that could potentially cause fleet-wide stand-downs. Having a variety of fighter platform types also increases the options available to meet unanticipated enemy capabilities. For example, during the Korean War, the U.S. Air Force was able to rapidly upgrade one of its four jet fighters, the F-86 Sabre, to meet the surprise introduction of the Russian Mikoyan-Gurevich (MiG)-15, a Soviet-designed fighter that was more capable than any other U.S. fighter in the Air Force or Navy inventory.

Had the Air Force and Navy relied exclusively on a single joint fighter other than the F-86, it might not have been able to respond quickly to the unanticipated new threat posed by the MiG-15. The more the U.S. military employs joint fighters, the fewer options will be available to meet unforeseen threats and crises in the future, as well as unanticipated safety and reliability issues that can ground entire fleets of specific aircraft types.
 
As I said above, the use of emotive language/scenarios such as that is amusing to say the least. It is also fraught with danger since such what if scenarios can go multiple ways. For example, let's use the same scenario, but twisted slightly.

What if the Air Force and Navy and USMC (for good measure) relied exclusively on a single joint fighter design (with slight variations based on service specifc requirements specific - i.e. variations to allow carrier ops). This would be the North American F-86 Sabre/FJ-2/-3 Fury series - used by the USAF, USN, USMC and indeed allied nations. They might have been better able to respond quickly to the unanticipated new threat posed by the MiG-15. Moreover, the greater resources able to be focused on this series (as opposed to being spread out across multiple different platforms) would have resulted in a much stronger, more capable force that may well have helped end the war quicker.
 
By the way, I'd still like to see the source for the cost breakdown. 50 per cent avionics sounds high. Maybe I should go buy some Raytheon shares.

When all was said and done, the FJ/F-86 series ended up as a family of aircraft sharing little more than a basic layout. The FJ-2 saw little if any carrier use and the FJ-3/4 were very unlike the F-86A/C/E. The F-86D and H were different animals again.

Whereas the current situation is more like a joint fighter program based on this...
 

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LowObservable said:
By the way, I'd still like to see the source for the cost breakdown. 50 per cent avionics sounds high. Maybe I should go buy some Raytheon shares.

When all was said and done, the FJ/F-86 series ended up as a family of aircraft sharing little more than a basic layout. The FJ-2 saw little if any carrier use and the FJ-3/4 were very unlike the F-86A/C/E. The F-86D and H were different animals again.

Whereas the current situation is more like a joint fighter program based on this...

Now, now, don't be bitter. ;D
 
LowObservable said:
Whereas the current situation is more like a joint fighter program based on this...


The Cutlass? The BIAS is strong in old LowObs.


The Cutlass has almost no similarity to the F-35 program and aircraft concept. Its just petulant name calling.
 
The SHF is strong around here...

It was intended as a joke (sheesh), but on further reflection...

The Cutlass was one of the first, if not the first, swept-wing carrier fighters to be ordered, flying three years earlier than the F9F Cougar, and designed at a time when operating jets off a carrier was problematic enough, let alone swept-wing types that had higher take-off and approach speeds. (Steam cats and angled decks had not yet appeared, and did so in parallel with the Fury, Cougar and Demon.)

Cranking the wing to high alpha and fitting large full-span slats would certainly increase CLmax, but at the price of removing the tail since (see photo) there would be no clearance for it unless the MLG was made about ten feet tall. (This is a bit hypothetical - Tailspin Turtle might have a better idea as to the drivers behind the F7U design.)

So, imagine a joint fighter program launched in 1947-48. The USAF wants swept-wing speed, but the Navy insists on the F7U configuration on the grounds that it is the only carrier-suitable swept-wing design. The result is a configuration that is fundamentally driven by an unrealistically difficult take-off and landing case (unrealistic, since the operational need must be, and eventually will be met by other approaches).

But that would have been a dumb idea and in reality, nobody would ever do that.
 

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LowObservable said:
By the way, I'd still like to see the source for the cost breakdown.

And I would still like to see you respond to some of my posts from 2012…or do we "infer that silence means that [you are] stunned into agreement" ;)
 
JFC Fuller said:
Except that was not "emotive" language at all. It was an entirely logical explanation of RAND's position using a specific example. Whether you disagree with it or not is a different matter but the section quoted by Triton above can hardly be described as emotive.


Of course it was! :eek:


And as I already said twice, such what if scenario analysis is easily challenged...
 
LowObservable said:
It was intended as a joke (sheesh), but on further reflection...

Hard to tell when you are joking Bill and when you are just using poor examples... ;D

I must admit though, I thought CK's use of the F-105 as an analogy to the F-35 was bad enough, but I think the prize for the worst analogy has to go to you now... B)
 
GTX said:
As I said above, the use of emotive language/scenarios such as that is amusing to say the least. It is also fraught with danger since such what if scenarios can go multiple ways. For example, let's use the same scenario, but twisted slightly.

What if the Air Force and Navy and USMC (for good measure) relied exclusively on a single joint fighter design (with slight variations based on service specifc requirements specific - i.e. variations to allow carrier ops). This would be the North American F-86 Sabre/FJ-2/-3 Fury series - used by the USAF, USN, USMC and indeed allied nations. They might have been better able to respond quickly to the unanticipated new threat posed by the MiG-15. Moreover, the greater resources able to be focused on this series (as opposed to being spread out across multiple different platforms) would have resulted in a much stronger, more capable force that may well have helped end the war quicker.

Your response, GTX, is an attack on the example rather than addressing the primary point that the RAND report was making. RAND's position is that "joint aircraft programs could potentially increase operational and strategic risk to warfighters" and that "having a variety of fighter platform types across service inventories provides a hedge against design flaws and maintenance and safety issues that could potentially cause fleet-wide stand-downs. Having a variety of fighter platform types also increases the options available to meet unanticipated enemy capabilities." So it sounds like your position, GTX, is that the F-35 has no design flaws or maintenance and safety issues that could potentially cause fleet-wide stand-downs. Plus, everyone associated with designing and building the F-35 has looked into the crystal ball and has accurately forecasted enemy capabilities for the next 30 to 40 years. You are essentially saying, GTX, that the F-35 decision has no "operational and strategic risk to warfighters", no opportunity cost, and there is no need to hedge the decision because all assumptions on which the F-35 was created are correct and accurate.
 
GTX said:
I really wish some of you would just come out and be honest in your dislike of the F-35. For many of you, the options would boil down to one of the following (if you are honest ::) ):

  • It's American
  • It's from Lockheed
  • It's not the F-22
  • I really just want the <insert here alternate aircraft> regardless of facts...
  • It's not as good as <Insert here cancelled Project> would have been...
Coming up with all these so-called justifications as to why the F-35 is a failure is just plain ridiculous. Why not try some honesty for a change? B)


EDIT: Forgot one option.

We all know how much the United States Army and the Congress hate the United States Air Force, Lockheed Martin, the F-35, and America:

" A-10: Close Air Support Wonder Weapon Or Boneyard Bound?
By Colin Clark and Sydney J. Freedberg Jr. on December 19, 2013 at 12:34 PM

Source:
http://breakingdefense.com/2013/12/a-10-close-air-support-wonder-weapon-or-boneyard-bound/

WASHINGTON: The A-10 Warthog is ugly, tough, lethal, and fairly flexible. Its famous 30mm gun can destroy tanks or other armored vehicles with remarkable efficiency, not to mention enemy troops. Its titanium tub of a cockpit protects the plane’s pilot from most ground fire. Its pilots are trained to fly low and slow and to kill the enemy even when he is within yards of US forces. The Army and Marines love the Warthog.

In short, the A-10 appears to be the exemplar of Close Air Support, protecting Marines and Army troops when they face being overwhelmed by the enemy. Some members of Congress, with an eye on bases in their states and districts, love the plane as well and have championed legislation blocking the plane’s retirement.

Why, then, people ask, is the Air Force seriously considering sending the Warthogs to the great boneyard and their pilots to other missions? The answer is complex, but it boils down to three things: money, smart bombs, and threats.

First and foremost, retiring the entire A-10 fleet would save the Air Force $3.7 billion from 2015 to 2019. Retiring just some or even most of the A-10s wouldn’t reap nearly the same savings, because there are fixed costs in training and maintenance you can’t get rid off as long as you keep any planes.

Second, thanks to the wonder of smart bombs, most of the A-10′s mission can be done by other, less specialized aircraft. That wasn’t technologically possible when the A-10 first entered service in 1975. But in Afghanistan and Iraq, precision-guided munitions from faster-flying fighters and even heavy bombers have actually provided the overwhelming majority — 80 percent — of close air support.

Third, we’re not the only people with smart weapons. The Taliban and the Iraqi insurgents had at most a handful of shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles — known in the trade as Man-portable Air Defense Systems, or MANPADS — but an unknown number of MANPADS were smuggled out of Libya after Qaddafi fell, and the missiles on the black market are getting more sophisticated all the time.

That’s why the Air Force has planned for at least the last 15 years to replace the A-10s with the F-35A, its version of the JSF, which will reach initial operational capability (IOC) by the end of 2016. The F-35A will not only carry smart bombs but also have new, sophisticated sensors to guide them to ground targets — and it will fly much faster and higher than the A-10 can, making it a much harder target. While the JSF can’t carry the Warthog’s massive 30 mm gun, it does have a highly accurate 25 mm gun and 182 rounds of ammunition. (I asked Gen. Robin Rand, head of the Air Force’s Air Education and Training Command, last Friday if the F-35 carried enough ammunition to do the CAS mission. He said yes.)

A-10 gunThe B and C F-35 models can be fitted with a gun pod that carries 220 rounds but the pod disrupts the plane’s stealthy profile.

The Air Force has a long history of appearing to want to abandon the Close Air Support mission and stick with fighters and bombers, though there is no sign of that from the current Air Force leaders or their immediate predecessors. This unfortunate history means many observers still distrust the Air Force rationales for shutting down the A-10 fleet.

Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh and his colleagues argue that in these days of declining budgets and the demands of enormous theaters such as the Pacific they must buy multi-role aircraft like the F-35 and the new Long Range Strike system. Single-mission aircraft, no matter how well suited they are to that mission, are just too expensive and limited.

A-10 from belowThose don’t seem unreasonable arguments, on their face. But the Air Force’s history of institutional indifference to the CAS mission combines with the broadly-held belief that no aircraft can do the CAS mission as well as the A-10 to spark opposition from ground pounders and Congress in particular.

We spoke with the Army, the service with the most to lose should close air support diminish in effectiveness, and Air Force pilots who fly CAS missions to get both the official and off-the-record views. The official Army, in the form of Maj. Gen. Bill Hix, deputy director of the influential Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC) Army Capabilities Integration Center, was surprisingly understanding of the Air Force’s idea to shutter the fleet. But Hix also offered a nuanced critique of the current CAS capabilities, in particular the A-10′s ability to fly low and slow and deliver firepower in bad weather.

“If the [A-10] aircraft and the specifically trained pilots go away, this mission will become a distant requirement hastily met with pilots who have been brought up on OCA [Offensive Counter-Air] and DCA (Defensive Counter-Air operations], and CAS that is provided will consist primarily of fast air-dropping JDAMs and other smart bombs on targets designated from the ground and then transitioning out of the area due to limited loiter time,” Hix said in an email.

He listed some very specific conditions where the A-10 and its ordnance are awfully useful:

When ”flying cover over outposts where attack helicopters can’t get (high altitude areas [e.g.] above 10,000 feet in the mountainous areas of Eastern Afghanistan for instance) and other USAF aircraft cannot get down/under the weather or fly in tight spaces (F-16, et al) or are too limited in numbers (AC-130).”
When “there is little to no air-to-air/IADs [integrated air defense system] threat and its use eases the demand for artillery and ground logistics requirements to support that artillery (cannon or rocket)[:] think of the support provided by Warthog pilots during the march to Baghdad in 2003); and the 30mm [gun], which is unique and intimidating to those on the receiving end, but not as precise as the gun on the AH-64 or the AC-130.”
He also made the crucial point, unaddressed by most in the Air Force, that the A-10 also serves as flying artillery, which is very useful in some situations. “CAS,” he writes, “is a complement to artillery and other indirect and air to surface fire support.”

Bottom line for the Army, per Hix: “That complementary mix of precision, area fires, sustained coverage, persistence, responsiveness and moral and physical effect remain important to success in ground combat; the A-10 carries a heavy complement of ordnance, while many other alternatives, like armed UAS, are more limited in their payloads; the A-10 is a good capability to have in the mix and even in limited numbers can continue to provide very useful and hard to replicate support on to ground troops.”

Note that reference to “limited numbers.” That seems to indicate the Army would accept retirement of much of the fleet but really wants the Air Force to keep some A-10s. But the Air Force makes the simple point that its big savings of $3.7 billion come only when it retires the entire fleet and gets rid of fixed overhead costs. As any student of aircraft acquisition knows, buying the planes is pretty cheap. More than three-quarters of a airborne weapon system’s costs typically come from parts, operations and maintenance.

The background view from a senior Army official was surprisingly accepting of the Air Force’s dilemma: “Tough times for all services and we have to leave it up to our counterparts to identify the best way forward to meet the CAS demands from the ground.”

Requests for air support, of course, aren’t the only thing coming from the ground. There’s also anti-aircraft fire — everything from MANPADS to sophisticated air defense missiles.

“I didn’t see the missile coming[;] my flight leader didn’t see the missile coming; my first indication of a missile launch was when it impacted my aircraft,” recalled Lt. Col. Kim Campbell, whose A-10 was hit over Baghdad in 2003. Fragments shredded much of the aircraft and cut its hydraulic control lines. But the plane’s famous titanium bathtub around the pilot kept Campbell alive, and amazingly, she managed to fly the wounded plane back to base.

Campbell argues the latest model, the A-10C, has better sensors and self-defense systems. “The A-10 has improved significantly,” she told Breaking Defense. “We’re better able to operate in these threat environments.”

But while the A-10 has been upgraded to handle some anti-aircraft threats, they still fly low and slow right into the enemy’s defenses. And in the air combat game, speed and advanced electronics are life.

To get a multi-role fighter pilot’s perspective, I spoke with an Air Force F-15E pilot (now a B-2 pilot), Capt. Michal Polidor, who was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for a 2009 close air support mission in Afghanistan. The F-15E was not designed for CAS but neither was the B-1 bomber, which along with the F-18 and other multirole aircraft, have provided more than three quarters of close air support since the terror attacks of 2001. Laser-guided and GPS-guided bombs and rockets have made this possible, along with intensive CAS training for multi-role pilots and greatly improved coordination with ground forces through Joint Terminal Attack Controllers (JTACs).

Joint Terminal Air Controllers and A-10Polidor was called by a JTAC to support 80 troops in danger of being overrun by massed Taliban forces eager to destroy Outpost Keating, a badly positioned base in Afghanistan that the enemy threw an estimated 300 fighters at in hopes of destroying it. He strafed a switchback road and dropped a mix of four bombs. Polidor was part of a fleet of 19 aircraft, including Army helicopters, that helped the men on the ground kill half the enemy force.

Since the Strike Eagle, as the F-15E is known, usually concentrates on OCA and DCA, Polidor said he received six months of CAS training before he deployed to Afghanistan, where he was based at Bagram Air Base. That training was crucial because, in addition to strafing and bombing, PoIlidor had to set his plane up as a communications relay between the JTAC and the other aircraft. His backseater became a JTAC for 19 aircraft. According to his citation for the DFC, Polidor (on his first day of combat), ”took control of the 19 aircraft on scene and orchestrated air strikes from six F-15Es, four A-10s, two AH-64s and a B-1.”

Polidor DFC award

He would not offer an opinion as to whether the A-10 should be retired or not (he is a captain, after all) but he did note that other Air Force fighters simply have to fly much faster to be safe and maintain maneuverability than does the A-10. While that means the F-15 can get to the scene more quickly, it also means it must leave more quickly and cannot fly as low and slow as can the A-10. He said an A-10 could probably execute two strafing runs for each one he can do because of that slower speed and lower altitude.

The circumstances of Polidor’s operation offer a window into just why the Air Force thinks it may be able to replace the A-10 even before the F-35A is available in late 2016. (The Marine Corps F-35B will be available earlier, in late 2015, and the Navy F-35C model by February 2019).

His aircraft executed a complex strafing run of a twisting valley road and dropped two laser-guided bombs and two GPS-guided bombs and did not injure any US or allied solders. The aircraft he and his weapons officer directed killed 72 Taliban, almost half the enemy deaths, a fine demonstration of what Gen. Hix meant when he cited the value of Close Air Support as airborne artillery. The fact that Polidor was able to execute such an array of complex maneuvers on his first day of air combat is testament to the CAS training he received.

So what does all this say about the A-10? Certainly, many of its effects can be duplicated by other, newer aircraft and usually are. Its psychological or morale effect on ground troops — fear for the enemy and jubilation for Americans and our allies — cannot readily be duplicated since the other aircraft do not fly low and slow. The A-10 is more vulnerable to sophisticated anti-aircraft defenses than the other multi-role aircraft (although recent upgrades have improved the odds) and Air Force officials believe it will be too vulnerable within 10 years.

Richard Aboulafia, one of the deans of aerospace analysts at the Teal Group, aptly summed up the A-10s prospects:

“It has faced dangerous moments before, it has faced retirement before, and it’s pulled through. You can make an argument for it either way, it’s not a dumb plane to have around by any means, it’s a very useful plane; the argument is in a time of austerity no service can afford single mission aircraft.”

The Air Force can probably retire the entire A-10 fleet in several years, but neither Congress nor the Army will be completely comfortable with that. But the $3.7 billion the Air Force estimates it could save will be very tempting to harvest, especially once we have largely withdrawn from Afghanistan and the F-35s reach IOC. Our bet: retirement starting in fiscal 2016. That leaves time to educate and mollify Congress and to demonstrate to the Army its soldiers won’t be left without effective protection.
 
When looking at fleet sizes, what multiplier should we assign to the F-35 when comparing it to existing fleets of F-16 and F-18 aircraft? In the case of the Royal Netherlands Air Force, does a fleet of 37 F-35As adequately replace a fleet of 68 F-16s. In the case of the Royal Canadian Air Force, does a fleet of 65 CF-35s adequately replace a fleet of 103 CF-18s. Or ideally, should the F-35 have been a one-to-one replacement of the F-16 and the F-18 in existing fleets? What about Japan and South Korean who intend to replace their existing F-15s with the F-35?
 
LowObservable said:
There are two ways to look at this.


1 - Stealth is the way of the future and will continue to get better and cheaper and require less compromise of other attributes.


2 - You don't equip your entire navy with submarines.

It's an apt analogy considering that both submarines and the F-35 rely on ambush tactics.
 
LowObservable said:
The SHF is strong around here...

It was intended as a joke (sheesh), but on further reflection...

Yes just a bias and petulant joke. Not very funny either.

Triton said:
It's an apt analogy considering that both submarines and the F-35 rely on ambush tactics.

What tosh. How does a submarine achieve stealth? By having a millions of tonnes of salty water between it and its enemies. If a stealth aircraft used a similar approach those giant balls of water flying through the sky would kind of be pretty distinctive. The air to air depth charge may be an far-fetched weapon solution but I’m sure it would work just as well. That is in the Low Obs / Triton world of rampart and very thin analogical warfare.

As for an F-35 relaying on ambush apart from every fighter pilot everywhere using this as their primary tactic this argument that the F-35 can’t stand and fight is just the spurious defamation of the anti F-35 crusaders. If you take that as your starting point then any nonsensical belief is possible.
 
Abraham Gubler said:
What tosh. How does a submarine achieve stealth? By having a millions of tonnes of salty water between it and its enemies.

Hull shaping to reduce flow noise, propeller shaping or masking to reduce cavitation, equipment mounting on dampers to reduce sound transmission to the exterior environment (i.e. the place where hostile sensors are located)...these all have no bearing on making a submarine stealthy in its environment? There's more to it than staying away from hostiles.

That's about as sensible as saying a B-2 is stealthy by placing millions of cubic meters of air between it and its enemies; neither statement is accurate.
 

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