You miss the point. The past winning contractor very likely managed the project better, made fewer avoidable mistakes, made less extravagant overpromises LM did with JSF precisely because:
And the governments part in all of it? as airplane nerds we like to think airplane centric, but if you look at the politics involved it suddenly becomes clear there is a lot of blame to go around.
But, Yes LM is the first to ever do this. Ever. I remember that day at Lockheed. We were all smoking cigars we lit with 100 dollar bills, just kind of joking around like you do. Drinking and telling our female escorts war stories. When out of nowhere Jimmy comes up with this idea: He says "Hey if we can create a monopoly, we can make bank" Well duh jimmy, we know. But then Bruce says "we can have a monopoly if get everyone to buy our plane. Just one plane though. make it multi role" They will never go for that. we said, its impossible. "but they don't know that" Bruce said. B) Thats when we had the idea that it wasn't about making one airplane work, but one airplane not work for as many people as possible. We got on the phone. We called McD and they said they loved it, we told them they needed to play along, then we called some other compaines (most of them aren't in business anymore) it was all really popular.
We called up the military and told them what we had in mind. The Air Force didn't care, the navy said it has to land on a ship. Well thats too easy. So we came up with STOVL. We called the Marines up and they laughed. Then we told them it would probably never work but why not? They agreed. The funny thing with the Marines though is they called the UK and shortly there after, someone forgot it was a joke and they actually started fighting for it!! And thats how LM came up with the joint strike fighter idea that we then convinced the government to conceive. The hardest part was convincing the government and the military that it was all their idea. Some of them to this day believe these are military requirements essential to future combat.
1. There were alternatives breathing down the the winner's neck. The winner knew it was not irreplaceable.
replacability has nothing to do with it. If these evil greedy companies only care about themselves then they only care about cancellation. Whether the US finds an alternative they wouldn't care less right? there was nothing NOTHING set to replace the F-22 and LM still fought tooth and nail for it? Why is that? Should have say back and dared the government to cancel it knowing it was irreplacable?
2. Even if the whole LWF project falls apart the service won't be in as dire a strait as it would be if the F-35 program completely crashes and burns. The winner knew the program really wasn't indispensible.
the JSF program is bulletproof. However if the JSF was cancelled tomorrow would there be a replacement JSF program? I am guessing there wouldn't be as each service goes its own way and the Joint fighter idea is declared dead again. Sweetman does a touch down dance, Europe buys european So its not irreplaceable. Cancel-able yes. Irreplaceable? hardly, For the USMC and UK maybe. the Marines are just SOL and the UK spends a fortune to add cats and traps to its now single fixed wing carrier. Lockheed cares, believe me. Their vendors care. There is competition, pressure, and alternatives whether you choose to acknowledge them or not
Now, LM knows it is irreplaceable in a program that is indispensible.
Ahh so lockmart feels no pressure or no pain as they lazily stroll to provide aircraft when they feel like it and international and domestic competition continue to improve and close the gap with programs like silent eagle, silent hornet, Rafale, Gripen etc? they casually take a longer time as other nations talk about alternatives or actively pursue them (like Canada)?
The airforce know it won't remain much of an airforce any more for a significant number of decades if it really take LM to task to the degree it could with previous programs.
like the F-22? Oh wait sorry. I forget that there are LM planes we love and LM planes we hate. This is a hate thread.
Broncazonk said:
after it's been ingloriously cancelled, the F-35 will be considered the greatest weapons procurement fiasco in human history.
And yet they keep funding as if it won't be canceled... weird.
I agree with you. This is where we are at in 2013 and its not "business as usual" (is that what you are saying Taiden Tomcat? that this is normal and good?)
Good? no. normal? HELL YES. And it will continue to be that way until it is reformed. The F-35 is the symptom, not the disease. But just like cats who keep chasing that laser dot you are convinced the spot is the origin and not the projection...
We shouldn't settle for this state of affairs the way it is in this nation now. There is no longer any competition. In the last 100 years there has always been plenty of free market competition. The completely corrupt global financial system has pretty much destroyed competition in most sectors including aerospace. A few consolidated mega corporations exist now that are "too big to fail" supported by the corrupt banking system living off the throwaway taxpayers and consumers. The old fair free market system was the greatest wealth producer ever known, and it worked very well. What we have now is more of a Government/corporate insider facist system run by elites. That's why corporations like Lockheed Martin are getting away with financial murder. A few generations ago the We the People would've sent alot of these people to jail and run them out of business and given the contracts to companies that would deliver on time and under budget. That is a little rant, but alot of it is true the way business is now.
Based on all your experience with government contracting? As we shout from the rooftops about a lack of competition do we wonder where all the competitors went post cold war? What happened? We sure didn't mind cutting off that "evil corporate welfare" post cold war and now we lament. Where did they all go?
LM is also playing a game to see how much it is able to charge for the F-35, alot of it is not simply cost of the aircraft. LM is starting with a high number to see what it can realistically charge, but as much as possible.
And no one has noticed, thats amazing. Seems like something Bill Sweetman might have mentioned to us had he found such a thing. Incredible that it escaped government oversight as well.
Here it is cut and dry: max profitability means getting the F-35 into FRP as fast as possible, as many as possible, to as many countries as possible. The longer it takes the more it costs everyone including LM and the higher the odds of it getting cancelled, cut, or curtailed. Its really that simple. in a perfect world LM would have been in FRP in 2008 just shoving those things out the door before anyone could have a second thought. Once they have it, they are on the hook for 40+ years of LM goodness and support. You don't make nearly as much screwing around in LRIP with endless delays as the internet seems to think. No one is more unhappy that the JSF isn't working than LM. If you work sales you want to close the freaking deal right then and there. You don't want to give people "time to think about it"
I don't know where you are all getting this sense of nostalgia from, but a lot of the rules the F-35 is operating under today where put in place to avoid the expensive disasters of the good old days you all lament losing.
