The F-35 No Holds Barred topic

SpudmanWP said:
When the upper doors of the B begin to open, it is in transition mode and list is not an issue.

So what you are saying is that the STOVL Lift System is already providing vertical force (i.e. lift) before the doors start transitioning (i.e. opening) and spoiling (i.e. dumping) any 'body lift'.

Is this a correct interpretation of what you are saying, Spudman?

:)
 
No, what I am saying is that the amount of lift is important to the F-35's turning ability which itself is not important when transitioning to STOVL mode.
 
SpudmanWP said:
No, what I am saying is that the amount of lift is important to the F-35's turning ability which itself is not important when transitioning to STOVL mode.

Spudman, isn't lift important in all phases for flight?

Isn't lift how an aircraft stays airborne?

To be correct, your answer to both these questions should be a resounding, "Yes!".

This is particularly the case when close to the ground and at low speed for reasons that I would have thought you would be well aware; the relationships between speed, angle of attack and aerodynamic lift & drag being what they are.

Why do you think all the airborne build up testing for the STOVL was done up and away?

Looks like you need to chase out a few more of your demons of stupidity by reading up on basic aerodynamics.

Even though you haven't answered the original question correctly, thanks for the response.

If you wish to try again, suggest you read up on 'body lift' design and also what a wing spoiler is and how it works.

;)
 
You seriously need to take a chill-pill. ::)


The wings provide enough lift on their own to keep the F-35 airborne while it transitions. This has been shown hundreds of times in testing.


If you are trying to say that an F-35B near stall speed will loose lift (and thereby possibly crash) if it enters STOVL mode, well duh! However, the FCS will not allow that to happen.


Also, the upper door opens in stages as the lift fan spins up so the amount of lift generated vs loss of body lift is managed. The exact numbers are of coarse classified.
 
SpudmanWP said:
The wings provide enough lift on their own to keep the F-35 airborne while it transitions. This has been shown hundreds of times in testing.


Some people won't let go of an issue even in the face of facts...or maybe all of those tests were really done with mirrors, after all it seems that some people seem to believe that the Lockheed Martin (and related) engineers are complete idiots... ::)
 
DD said:
Still didn't answer the question particularly since the 'production learning curves' on which the projected costs and, therefore, the average cost figures for the JSF are based are not an annual thingy.


"thingy"??? Care to be a little more specific please.
 
GTX - Ha ha! I wouldn't be reminding people of that, had it not been core to your long-winded explanation of what a bargain the JSF really is.

DD - Spud is correct to a point. Body lift on the F-35 is not significant as it approaches the transition. However, neither is it significant in other parts of the 1-g flight regime. In level flight the jet flies on its (very small, in the case of A/B) wings. (That's why the C needs twice the net wing area - net, as in discounting the body area - of the A/B.)

You will get body lift at high alpha and higher airspeed (the maneuver envelope) but not very efficiently, in the absence of a geometry that postpones flow separation and stall (eg a LEX, Russian-style centroplane or the F-22's sharply swept upper inlet lip). Basically, your "body lift" is the drag generated by stuffing a brick through the air at 30 deg alpha, resulting in a vector that has a lift component.
 
LowObservable said:
LO, the SH URF in 2012 yr dollars is about $60m plus IR pods (and maybe gov provided stuff)
the full production f-35 in 2012 year dollars is about URF 70m all up


"About" is one big weasel word. Actual delta is almost 30 per cent (with F-35A as the base). Oh, and detail what you mean by maybe gov provided stuff.

being a bit pedantic aren't you?
the superhornet 2012 $ urf price is not 60m but 66.59m and the gov provided stuff is the gov provided stuff that isn't included in boeings contract and may not be included in the URF

here is the link for you to tell me the exact cost from page 17
http://www.dod.gov/pubs/foi/logistics_material_readiness/acq_bud_fin/SARs/DEC%202011%20SAR/F%20A-18E%20F%20-%20SAR%20-%2031%20DEC%202011.pdf
 
LowObservable said:
GTX - Ha ha! I wouldn't be reminding people of that, had it not been core to your long-winded explanation of what a bargain the JSF really is.

Considering all the "extras" that would have to be purchased to make the Hornet a viable aircraft for the next 40 years it is.
 
Most of the methods used for calculating the unit cost are based on the number of units bought, at least some of the support infrastructure to support that number of aircraft over X years, as well as covering the costs of development.

The B-2 was originally to be a buy of 132 aircraft. 20 production aircraft were bought.
Originally, the AGM-129 was to be a production run of 1400 to replace the ALCM. That was dropped to 640, then 460 production units.
The F-22 was originally to be 750, then 438, then 339, etc. until finally less than 200 production aircraft were bought.

The US alone is planning to buy 2443 F-35s. If the buy is anything less than that, the calculated unit cost will go up. It's a good thing that it's almost certain the US will be getting the full 2443.
 
quellish said:
The US alone is planning to buy 2443 F-35s. If the buy is anything less than that, the calculated unit cost will go up. It's a good thing that it's almost certain the US will be getting the full 2443.

Indeed. And lest anyone think that it will be an easy decision to simply cancel the whole program or to cap the production run after a couple of hundred, here is the stark reality of the situation. The first graph below is a representation of historical USAF Fighter buys over the last 30 odd years:

image008-1.gif

The important point to take from this is the fact that the USAF Fighter fleet is old. Moreover, during that time there has been quite a lot of flying (anyone want to guess how many wars, UN actions, etc the USAF has been involved in over the last 20 or so years?) thus driving up fatigue indexes as well as operating/support costs.

The next graph shows the planned future USAF force mix as these older platforms are retired (WARNING: This may be distressing to some F-35 Detractors ;)):

image009.gif

Now add to this, the needs of the USN, USMC as well as the other 8 partner nations + the increasing FMS operators...

Now of course, this could reduce. The USAF may not buy as many F-35s as it might like. However, that will mean they have decided/been forced to undergo force reductions.

Now, finally please also remember that this is not some little program where only a couple of examples have been delivered thus making it easy to cancel early on. There are already over 100 F-35s either delivered, in construction or ordered... :)
 
LowObservable said:
GTX - Ha ha! I wouldn't be reminding people of that, had it not been core to your long-winded explanation of what a bargain the JSF really is.

You mean my "long winded explanation" trying to help people understand what the actual costs are/comprise of. Oh, sorry my bad for trying to help people understand. Can't have that can we. So much nicer when one can just throw down a number without any understanding... ::)

As to reminding people, I have no problem reminding people to read any of my posts in regard to the F-35. In fact, when it comes to the pricing issue, I actually encourage them to reread my posts at Reply #1485 or Reply #1499.
 
I don't find that chart in the least distressing.

Reading fiction expands the mind.

The USAF plans to retain 242 A-10s through 2030, according to 2012 testimony to Congress. The newly initiated F-16 CAPES upgrade does not even reach FOC until late 2022, so it's a little hard to envisage those 300-350 jets starting to retire in 2025, as your picture shows.

The chart also shows deliveries of F-35s out to 2035 when the current plan runs to 2039, and full-rate deliveries (not orders, since it says "inventory") kicking in at 2017, when the correct date in the SAR is 2023 (the first 80-jet USAF buy year is 2021).

Once again, old/bad data presented as though it settles a point. Try harder, GTX.
 
LowObservable said:
LO, the SH URF in 2012 yr dollars is about $60m plus IR pods (and maybe gov provided stuff)
the full production f-35 in 2012 year dollars is about URF 70m all up


"About" is one big weasel word. Actual delta is almost 30 per cent (with F-35A as the base). Oh, and detail what you mean by maybe gov provided stuff.

being a bit pedantic aren't you?
the superhornet 2012 $ urf price is not 60m but 66.59m and the gov provided stuff is the gov provided stuff that isn't included in boeings contract and may not be included in the URF
the full production f-35 is 'about' 71m in 2012 year dollars

here is the link for you to tell me the exact SH cost from page 17
http://www.dod.gov/pubs/foi/logistics_material_readiness/acq_bud_fin/SARs/DEC%202011%20SAR/F%20A-18E%20F%20-%20SAR%20-%2031%20DEC%202011.pdf
 
$71 m? Mr GTX says $78.7 million in his famous Reply 1485. Which is a clear 41 per cent more than the 2012 SH URF contained in the 2013 Navy budget.
 
GTX said:
The next graph shows the planned future USAF force mix as these older platforms are retired (WARNING: This may be distressing to some F-35 Detractors ;) ):

I don't see why it would be distressing to anyone. I recall similar graphs during the 90s, with F-22s taking over for retiring F-15s.
Where are the MQ-9s on this graph?

GTX said:
Now, finally please also remember that this is not some little program where only a couple of examples have been delivered thus making it easy to cancel early on. There are already over 100 F-35s either delivered, in construction or ordered... :)

The number of aircraft delivered does not make a program buy easier or harder to cancel or cut.
 
Let me get this straight.

You think that the projected unit cost for a delivery 11 years hence, from a program where the unit cost has increased by 80 per cent in the last 11 years, is more valid than actual budget numbers (Navy aircraft procurement BA-1) for a firm-fixed-price MYP signed in 2010.

And then you want to talk about reality? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 
instead of carrying on about it, you tell us what year dollars are you quoting from usn?

I don't think anything, I'm quoting the 2012 SAR, are you saying the USG DoD SAR is lying when they say the 2012 year URF cost is 66.59m and the 2000BY$ cost of 50.03m
each
here is the link for you to tell me the exact SH cost from page 17
http://www.dod.gov/pubs/foi/logistics_material_readiness/acq_bud_fin/SARs/DEC%202011%20SAR/F%20A-18E%20F%20-%20SAR%20-%2031%20DEC%202011.pdf
 
2012 SAR is a public document, yet I supported what I said with a link and page number to the info, so your point is?
are you saying the USG DoD SAR is lying when they say the 2012 year URF cost in 2012$'s of 'about' 66.59m and the 2000BY$ cost of 'about' 50.03m

you haven't actually said a price, just seemed to try to use the 2000yr price as a 2012 year price for comparison, something sweetman is famous for
 
http://www.finance.hq.navy.mil/FMB/13pres/APN_BA1-4_BOOK.pdf

Volume 1-17, Page 111 in Adobe. FY2012.

And to stop your further misquoting - I'm not saying that the SAR is "lying". Both that and the BA-1, though, are more reliable than SAR projections.

And with that, I'm done responding to you.
 
try again page 111 Adobe is 0143C - EA-18G - Advanced Procurement
please also quote the price you are quoting on the page.
given that the usn FY budget and SAR are both DoD reports, I wouldn't be in a rush to discount either, the GAO is the dodgey one
 
LOL, it's a big call to quote an article that said the 2013 lrip will be 50% more than the 2012 LRIP, you might need a decent source for this, if you really want to try and put it forward
 
LowObservable said:
Reading fiction expands the mind.


Although the exact numbers/dates/mix will obviously vary (as any 20+ yr projection will), are you denying that the overall basic message of the graph - that the current inventory based upon platforms largely purchased in the '80s, will see something akin to that represented - is incorrect? I ask you to please enlighten us what the 'correct' projection is then. And please, none of the typical F-35 detractor excuse of "I don't need to provide anything". It gets really boring. ::)

LowObservable said:
The chart also shows deliveries of F-35s out to 2035 when the current plan runs to 2039, and full-rate deliveries (not orders, since it says "inventory") kicking in at 2017, when the correct date in the SAR is 2023 (the first 80-jet USAF buy year is 2021).


So the graph ends at 2035. So what? Where did I (or the graph for that matter) ever state that that was when F-35 production/deliveries ended? It is simply where the graph ends. It could just as easily have gone to 2040 or 2050, though of course then you would be jumping up and down pointing out that deliveries are projected to finish in 2039, not 2040 or 2050. ;D Once again, it still doesn't change the message trying to be conveyed using the graph which is that because of the retirement/attrition etc of platforms largely acquired in the '80s, the USAF (as the largest single F-35 customer) is a strong supporter of the F-35 and thus any moves to cancel or curtail the F-35 program will be fought fiercely. The USAF, just like any of the services planning to acquire the F-35, want it a lot!


Also, with respect to making a point about full rate deliveries kicking in a particular year, it is worth also acknowledging that current predictions already show that the later LRIP years already have yearly production totals above 100 aircraft per year, so the term Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) can be somewhat of a misleading one... ::) Therefore, just because Full Rate Production/Deliveries has not been reached, does not mean that there won't be a lot of F-35s delivered.
 
airfan1 said:
LOL, it's a big call to quote an article that said the 2013 lrip will be 50% more than the 2012 LRIP, you might need a decent source for this, if you really want to try and put it forward


Agreed. I could just as easily put forward projections that indicate the JASDF is looking at acquiring up to 240+ F-35s in total. Of course if I was to do that, the howls of protest would be deafening... ;)
 
GTX - The chart you posted looks old. The picture would look quite a lot different with 550-600 A-10s and F-16s retained through 2030. Since your point (as you state) rested on retirement and attrition rates, your failure to supply accurate data is important.

"Full rate" means "full rate", not "lots of LRIPs". It's very clear on your chart that the F-35 "wedge" has a straight slope from 2017 on out, indicating constant rate. However, according to the SAR the USAF doesn't reach 80/year until the 2021 buy/2023 deliveries.

I don't think that anyone's arguing that the USAF doesn't need replacement aircraft. However, it's also fairly clear that the USAF is not in a position to choose between all-JSF and other solutions, so to say that it "wants" the JSF is at best irrelevant.

Indeed, the need has been exacerbated and made harder to fill by the total failure of the F-35 program to deliver on time and on budget, combined with the people at all levels who covered up signs of that failure from 2007 onwards and prevented the timely planning of mitigation measures. So now the panic is on, hence retention of A-10s and the launch of F-16 CAPES.

An interesting exercise might be to work on a chart of that kind, given what the USAF is now doing to stretch current aircraft through 2030, see how many JSFs the USAF really expects to have by 2030, and compare that to the number planned in the SAR.
 
Just to be completely clear, "no holds barred" does NOT mean you have carte blanche to post insulting/defamatory comments about other forum members.
 
LowObservable said:
The chart you posted looks old. ... Since your point (as you state) rested on retirement and attrition rates, your failure to supply accurate data is important.

"Looks old" is a new one ;D .

As for the rest, actually, I stated "...overall basic message of the graph - that the current inventory based upon platforms largely purchased in the '80s, will see something akin to that represented". Therefore, the message is still valid regardless of the specific details of year by year variations...unless of course you believe that the overall picture is going to be vastly different. In which case, I ask you, once again, to provide your own 'correct' projection.

LowObservable said:
"Full rate" means "full rate", not "lots of LRIPs". It's very clear on your chart that the F-35 "wedge" has a straight slope from 2017 on out, indicating constant rate. However, according to the SAR the USAF doesn't reach 80/year until the 2021 buy/2023 deliveries.

Please be a little clearer with what you mean by "Full Rate"? Are you referring to the post LRIP environment of Full Rate Production (FRP) or something else? I'm sorry, but simply saying that ""Full rate" means "full rate"" is as clear as mud. ???

If you are referring to the FRP that I have assumed, then I believe you have totally missed my point, which was that regardless of whether one is in a LRIP or FRP environment, there will still be a lot of F-35s produced and delivered to customers (including the USAF) prior to the FRP phase formally being achieved. Trying to base an argument on the semantics of what production phase one is in is meaningless in this situation though given some LRIPs are getting close to FRP numbers...and indeed, some later FRPs will be less then some LRIPs in terms of production quantities...

As for the graph, like lots of detractors, you "fail to see the forrest for the trees". In other words, you get all worked up about individual data points and try to build some sort of argument upon them but in doing so just make fools of yourself because you missed the overall point/message. To reiterate once again: Although the exact numbers/dates/mix will obviously vary (as any 20+ yr projection will), the overall basic message of the graph is that the current USAF inventory based upon platforms largely purchased in the '80s, will see something akin to that represented!

LowObservable said:
...combined with the people at all levels who covered up signs of that failure from 2007 onwards and prevented the timely planning of mitigation measures

Strong accusations there. Care to provide evidence?
 
Care to provide evidence?

I should think the events of early 2010 pretty much tell that story. And the GAO is on the record with a list of accurate and negative predictions from Navair, the Joint Estimating Team and elsewhere, most of which were energetically disputed on the record by program insiders. How's this for starters?

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/press-releases/2008/april/USGOVERNMENTREPORTSHOWSDE.html

You can't backpedal after posting an out-of-date chart and start talking about things being "akin" to something or other. You posted bad data. Own it.

Full rate = Sustained maximum rate, by the way. This is supposed (per the SAR) to be 80/year for the USAF, starting with the 2021 buy, but that will probably not be reached. The exercise at the end of my previous post is interesting.
 
LowObservable said:
You can't backpedal after posting an out-of-date chart and start talking about things being "akin" to something or other. You posted bad data. Own it.


Keep banging away at that drum Bill... ::)


There is no back pedalling what-so-ever here. As I have already posted numerous times, the graph conveyed the message I intended it to. If you dispute it, please post a 'correct' version...as I have also asked numerous times. ::)
 
LowObservable said:
I should think the events of early 2010 pretty much tell that story. And the GAO is on the record with a list of accurate and negative predictions from Navair, the Joint Estimating Team and elsewhere, most of which were energetically disputed on the record by program insiders. How's this for starters?

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/press-releases/2008/april/USGOVERNMENTREPORTSHOWSDE.html


Is that you best evidence? Quite a long way from "covering up" which implies deliberateness possibly even criminal activity... ::)
 
This whole fallacy with the Super Hornets needs to be examined in more detail. A lot of calls for the "you can buy X amount of Super Hornets for the cost of X amount of F-35s" ignore some pretty big issues. You can buy 8 F-86s for the cost of one F-15. But of course the F-15 has massive and revolutionary advantages over the F-86s.

The Super Hornet is an evolution of a 1970's design, the only way it can possibly be better than an F-35 is if someone convinces you the F-35 is so lousy its actually as bad as the Super Hornet. Which is an interesting endorsement for the F-35 I suppose, bit of an accidental compliment. The next step from there is saying something along the lines of "hey since they are both equally bad and lousy, lets get the version where we can have more bad and lousy, so more super hornets." Of course! Make up for substandard, with more substandard!

In fact any talk of making the F-18E/F anywhere near the F-35 in terms of performance means an upgrade of the F-18E/F. A whole new version in fact. Thats why its fun to watch F-18 Proponents go on ad nausem about how cheap the super bug is, and then in the next breath mention about how the F-18 will need an upgrade to compete. oh?... but don't worry it won't cost too much more. we think. Havnt really tried it of course.

This version is though still (naturally) cheaper according to Boeing than the F-35, and easily made too, but of course they are going to give the "low ball" version to anyone who asks. And seeing they won't mention that the things that make the F-35 such a fierce competitor, are naturally the most expensive portions that will need to be replicated on their aircraft (again this will somehow be cheaper) They also get the advantage of not having to actually follow through with it. So much like the much like the "sports champ" who never missed a goal, because he never took a shot, Boeing is sitting pretty on an aircraft they have yet to receive a single order on or follow through with.

Any talk of what a Super Bug costs now or in 2000 really doesn't matter because as has been mentioned before, its inferior to the point of sadness until it gets an upgrade, which changes the cost of course. And no amount of money will make it stealthy of course.

Bench Pressing 30KG ten times doesn't mean you "can bench 300KG" it means you can do a lot of pretty novice movements repeatedly. thats the super hornet. It can't do anything heavy on its own, but if you get enough of them together...they still can't do any heavy lifting really.

No amount of Silver Medals equals a Gold Medal. And in war Silver Medal doesn't mean "try again in four years" It means dead.
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
This whole fallacy with the Super Hornets needs to be examined in more detail. A lot of calls for the "you can buy X amount of Super Hornets for the cost of X amount of F-35s" ignore some pretty big issues. You can buy 8 F-86s for the cost of one F-15. But of course the F-15 has massive and revolutionary advantages over the F-86s.

You could also probably buy several A-10s, or several LAS Super Tucanos for the cost of one F-15.
The F-15 may not have a massive and revolutionary advantage over those aircraft for CAS.

You could probably resurrect a portion of the F-117 force for the price of an F-35. The F-35 may or may not have such an advantage for the penetrating surgical strike mission.

The F-35 tries to do a little of just about every mission. According to some people this is a weakness, not a strength, as it doesn't really do those jobs as well as dedicated platforms. I do not think that the people arguing in favor of alternatives to the F-35 are suggesting that a single platform do all of those jobs, for the same reasons.

TaiidanTomcat said:
Bench Pressing 30KG ten times doesn't mean you "can bench 300KG" it means you can do a lot of pretty novice movements repeatedly. thats the super hornet. It can't do anything heavy on its own, but if you get enough of them together...they still can't do any heavy lifting really.

I would rather bench 30KG x10 with perfect form than 300KG x1 with terrible form. Wouldn't you?
 
quellish said:
I would rather bench 30KG x10 with perfect form than 300KG x1 with terrible form. Wouldn't you?

What does the Super Hornet do that the F-35 doesn't do better (aside from the tanker role I mean).
 
quellish said:
I would rather bench 30KG x10 with perfect form than 300KG x1 with terrible form. Wouldn't you?

Only if it meant I would get stronger someday. Being perfectly weak forever is not for me, especially if I'm paying through the nose for a gym membership. Besides war is far from perfect, its very messy in fact, being able to get the 300KG up just once but ugly is fine, especially for a competition. You can always sit on the sidelines, not even qualifying for a competition and really impress the competitors with your "perfect form" though. the worlds prettiest military, that can't fight.

If you are going to pay all that money, why not get an aircraft that will last a day and a half when the fight starts?
 
sferrin said:
quellish said:
I would rather bench 30KG x10 with perfect form than 300KG x1 with terrible form. Wouldn't you?

What does the Super Hornet do that the F-35 doesn't do better (aside from the tanker role I mean).

Good question.

It costs less because it does less.
 
The F-35 tries to do a little of just about every mission. According to some people this is a weakness, not a strength, as it doesn't really do those jobs as well as dedicated platforms. I do not think that the people arguing in favor of alternatives to the F-35 are suggesting that a single platform do all of those jobs, for the same reasons.

And this is the heart of the matter. A lot of people say the good old days are gone and theres no money left. They are right. If you think the JSF is expensive, wait until you have five aircraft to feed and house trying to do to individual specialized jobs. especially when those airframes are old and havnt been in production for i(n some cases,) decades. not to mention the legions of technicians and spare parts require to keep large varied fleets operating.


its the difference between taking an accounting ledger and comparing the price of aircraft initially, and breaking out Jane's military aircraft and looking at the performance and initial price and making your decision from there. Reality is different. there are thousands of factors to include Maintainability, performance in different enviroments and in different envelops myriad missions, spare parts, survivability, combat effectiveness, turn around time maint hours/vs flight hours, depot maintenence, specialized calibration equipment, lifespan of parts, specialized hangers, the list goes on and on.

Its like saying the cost of having a child is just that of the first ultra sound. Hold on to your hat, because its only going to get more expensive over time!

So its easy to say "for the price of one F-15 I can get 2 A-10s and 4 Tucanos"... but how about all those other factors? But of course it costs 5 million dollars to train a military pilot. So the Tucano's have an additional price of pilot training, since there are more of them, they need more spares that may not be avaliable, more hangers and of course the Tucanos are worthless outside of COIN. so fleets of aircraft men and material for a small mission.

Combat effectiveness? We are seeing the limits already. As soon as reports of SA-18s in Libya came out, the A-10 was immediately restricted from operating in suspected SA-18 areas. So theres an example of a wonderful specialized aircraft, being completed and utterly benched when the moment of truth arrived. Even an F-15C modified with a few bombs is better than no bombs at all. (F-15Es of course operated wherever they desired)

The USAF operates from the top down with missions. Its going to be Air superiority first, SEAD, deep strike, and then all the other nice to have things like battlefield interdiction and CAS later. If it runs out of money, then the bottom missions and their aircraft get dropped. bye bye warthog. The planes that can do the greater variety of missions get kept, because its more bang for the buck.

So you can have a single non specialized aircraft that does a lot of missions very very well actually. or you can have many aircraft that can do a few missions perfectly, but with certain missions utterly ignored for budgetary reasons. You can't have many aircraft doing a few perfect missions each with the full spectrum covered. There simply isn't enough. So one way or another, the A-10 is going the way of the dinosaur. Because if it comes between CAS or deep strike, deep strike wins every time.

This stuff is chess, not checkers. There are considerations that go well beyond the initial numbers and the apparatus (Men, machines, material, training, administration, etc) that maintains warplanes is massive.

Even if the JSF gets canceled tomorrow, Legacy aircraft are old, outdated, and in need of replacement. They get more difficult and expensive every year

Specialization is long gone, and the world has been trending to multirole for sometime now.
 
May I just point out that at the moment we do not know what the F-35 does well......
it is not fully operational and combat-tested. We are told what it may do well, and not
do well, by those with agendas or vested interests. So any assumptions about what
it may actually be able to do are speculative, at best.

I suspect why the Super Bug is floated as an alternative by some is because it is
considered to be more of a known quantity ("Better the devil you know"?).
 
Interestingly though, the two current Super Hornet operators (USN and RAAF) are both wanting the F-35 in their future OOB...
 
sferrin said:
What does the Super Hornet do that the F-35 doesn't do better (aside from the tanker role I mean).

The F/A-18E can return to a carrier after losing one engine. In the F-35, the pilot does not have much time to troubleshoot an engine problem over water before having to eject or ditch.
 

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