The designations of Fiat and related companies

[boxkite]

Italy has a long tradition in producing of aircraft, but there are many gaps in the list of type designations. Let’s start with the best-known company Fiat. I restricted the enumeration for the time after WWII. Skybolt and tanino (other Italian readers here?), please help to fill the gaps. That’s your chance to make Italian aircraft immortally .

Fiat
G.46 – advanced trainer with piston engine/1947
G.49 – basic trainer with piston engine/1952
G.55M – original designation for the later G.59
G.59 – advanced trainer with piston engine/1950
G.80 – advanced jet trainer/1951
G.81 – ??? (I noticed this designation, but have no idea, where I read about it …)
G.82 – G.80 development/1954
G.84 – ??? (the same as on G.81 …)
G.91 – fighter-bomber/1956
G.91Y – G.91 development with two jet engines/1966
G.95 – STOL project (predecessor of the G.95/… VTOL designs)
G.95/3 – VTOL project
G.95/4 – VTOL project
G.95/6 – VTOL project
G.222 – turboprop transport/1970
(Model) 7002 – experimental helicopter/1961

 

[boxkite]

First addition by myself :

(Model) 7005 - compound helicopter (project only)

 

[Skybolt]

Ok, but first we must explain that Italian project numbers are made of two parts: first, the company, second the progressive number of project done by a chief designer (in Germany this happened only with Kurt Tank and the Focke-Wulf Ta-XXX from 1943 on). So Fiat G-46 is the 46th design made by Gabrielli, who was the designer of the FIAT Aviazione in Turin. FIAT before and during the war had different companies working in aviation, with different designer and hence project numbers. hTis said, let start to fill the gaps:
G-48 - 1948 project of a G-55 with Isotta Fraschini Delta RC 40 engine (piston)
G-61, the same with a Packard V 1650/7

Notice G-56, 57 and 58 were all wartime types.G-46 and G-48 are not out of place and they are post-war. Simply, Gabrielli decided in 1947 that his projects intended for non-combat duties and with a less powerful engine would have a 4X number. In the same vein circa 1935 he had decided that his project for combat aircraft would start from 50, while he continued the normal number serie for other projects (so, G-12, which was a civilian tri-engine, see below) he had started in 1931 with G-1.
And, actually the G-59 was a G-55 with a Merlin engine. It was theoretically only the G-59B, two-seat version, that was used as an advanced trainer.

 

[Skybolt]

More:
G-12LB 1947 version of the old G-12L with three Bristol Pegasus 48 - airliner - series produced
G-212 evolution of the G-12 with three P&W R-1830 - airliner - series produced
G-218 last evolution of the GC-12 with only two engine in the wings (Bristol Hercules 730) - contender of the 1946 competion of the Ministero dell'Aeronautica for a short-to-medium range airliner - project only

 

[Skybolt]

More...
G-80-3 CAS and tac-recce
G-81 was a version of the G-80 with a De Havilland Ghost
G-82, evolution with a Nene; there was a proposed all-weather fighter version, don't know how serious
G-84, evolution with an Allison J35 - trainer, CAS and tac recce

More tomorrow, I must dig my archive

 

[Skybolt]

I excavated (literally) the G-4X series...
G-40, trainer with a CNA D.41, project only 1946
G-41 same as above but with a Continental 75
G-42 same with an Alfa Romeo AR-115bis
G-43 number not assigned
G-44 leisure aircraft, three-place, similar to the G-46 but with an A.R. 115bis
G-45 number not assigned
G-46 you know
G-47 same as above but with a P&W r-685
G-48 you know
G-49 trainer with either an Alvis Leonides 502/4 or a P&W R-1340-S3H1

apart the G-46 none was seried produced. G-49 only prototype, it patecipated to a competion with MB-323 and Piaggio P-150

 

[Skybolt]

Uh, forgotten

G-60 Like G-59 but with a Merlin 66, one and two-place versions (A and B)

 

[elmayerle]

G-56, DB603-powered derivative of the G-55

I don't remember if it was the G-51 or G-52 that was a production version of the DB601-powered G-50V.

 

[Skybolt]

G-51 is controversial. It seems that Gabrielli in an interview late in his life explained that G-51 was a G-50 with a FIAT A.75 RC.53 engine, a derivative of the A.74
G-52 In the same interview Gabrilelli couldn't remember if the number was ever used (he inclined for the negative), but in the FIAT archives has been found a sketch dated October 2nd 1938. G-52 was a redesigned G-50 with a new engine, a FIAT A.74 RC.40 (radial, not line), which was in turn a redesign of the A.74 with a 1000 CV of power at take-off. If you are interested I have an internal arrangement skecth viewed by the side.

So let's complete the sequence to G-55 (excluding it, it will require a separate topic as for the G-50, lot of sub-version and turns of mind).

G-53 Some sources list this as a derivative of the G-50ter. Now it seems that it was two-place fast-recce aircraft, based on the G-50B and G-50V with a DB-601. Project only

G-54 number not assigned.

A word on the holes in the list. It seems that the original intention of Gabrielli was to assign to major projects number separated by five (i.e. G-50, G-55, etc) devoting the intermediate number to derivatives and major version (minor version were designated by suffixes). So G-51, G-52, and G-53 were assigned to version of the G-50 when the G-55 project was already underway. This explains the missing G-54: simply no more G-50 versions...
Gabrielli good intentions went lost after the war (G-60wasn't a major project, only a version of G-55). But already before the war, G-50V with a line engine would surey qualify as a major version, worth a separate numeber. Wew!

-

 

[boxkite]

Thanks for all the information. I'm keen on seeing the list of later designs, because im particularly interested in jet and turboprop projects.

 

[Skybolt]

G-90 two-jet advanced trainer - 1956/7 - project only

 

[elmayerle]

One wonders if the G-54 might have been comparable to the Re.2004, a fighter powered by the Isotta Fraschini "Zeta" 24-cylinder engine.

 

[Skybolt]

Gabrielli said that G-54 wasn't used and nothing emerged from a deeep search in FIAT archives. And beside this, FIAT used internal made-engines, either internally developed or license-produced (Reggiane hadn't an engine development and production department). G-4X with engines from other Italian companies (IF, Alfa Romeo) were postwar and forced by Ministero dell'Aeronautica, that wanted to use the stock of wartime engines they had.

 

[boxkite]

Thanks again, Skybolt and Evan. Were there designs in the G.8X and G.9X lines (e. g. G.83, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 92, 93, 94, 96 ...)?

 

[Skybolt]

G-80 line finished with G-84. Still searching on G-85 to G-89 and on G-92 to G-94 and on. I know were to look bu I'll not be able until Thursday morning.

 

[Skybolt]

It seems that G-92 to G-94 weren't used at all.

 

[Skybolt]

G-95-6 is sometimes referred to as G-96 (since it was very different from the rest of the series ... nuclear penetrator, Mach 2)

G91 had one unbuilt version:

G-91TS a stretched, two-engine, two-site, supersonic, advanced trainer/combat aircraft.

Version G91T/4, with electronics developed for F-104G, was built but not series-produced.

 

[elmayerle]

G-91T/4 sounds like it was developed to the same specification that the MB-326C was aimed at, a trainer for F-104 systems. I know the Aermacchi design never got beyond a mock-up on an early MB-326 airframe, how far did the G-91T/4 get?

 

[Skybolt]

how far did the G-91T/4 get?

There were a small number of prototypes, both in Italy and in Germany. I have a photo of a prototype in German colors.

 

[hesham]

It seems that G-92 to G-94 weren't used at all.

I don't think so my dear Skybolt,


the G.92 was mention in Italian Air Force List;


http://www.worldairforces.com/countries/italy/itl.html

 

[Nico]

My dear Hesham,
I think in this case G.92 is a typo (note also the interrogation point); a very close colleague of mine had frequent meetings with Eng. Giuseppe Gabrielli and there was no mention on a G.92. Moreover, Italian Air Force had only single-engined G.91 (in various versions, but none called G.92) and twin engined G.91YT; the latest projects in the field of fighters with the "G" symbol, were the various configuration of the G.95, an experience then merged with the VA K 191B.
Nico

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Nico.

 

[airman]

Well in first i must say that during wwi the aeronautical section of Fiat was called Società Italiana Aviazione or S.I.A. for return Fiat after first world war : then when you search info about " S.I.A. R-2 " aircraft you will find also Fiat R-2 . After first world war the designation for bomber is BR = Bombardiere Ricognitore or and CR for fighters = Caccia Ricognitore . Designations with G. is shared with transport aircraft ( G.2 and G.18) and fighters ( G.50\51\55\56 series).

 

[Stargazer]

Well in first i must say that during wwi the aeronautical section of Fiat was called Società Italiana Aviazione or S.I.A. for return Fiat after first world war : then when you search info about " S.I.A. R-2 " aircraft you will find also Fiat R-2 . After first world war the designation for bomber is BR = Bombardiere Ricognitore or and CR for fighters = Caccia Ricognitore . Designations with G. is shared with transport aircraft ( G.2 and G.18) and fighters ( G.50\51\55\56 series).

What's your purpose in starting this new topic? Just to present the various numbering systems? (in which case a new, one-post topic really wasn't in order)

Or do you want to actually start a list of all these early types? (in which case, where is your list?)

Or was that a disguised call upon the rest of us to do the job? ???

 

[Apophenia]

airman: The 'G' in Fiat designations indicate the designs of Ing. Giuseppe Gabrielli. The 'R' is for Ing. Celestino Rosatelli (not 'Ricognitore').
-- BR = Bombardiere Rosatelli
-- CR = Caccia Rosatelli

For the record, the Sociétà Italiana Aviazione designations are attached. There doesn't seem to be a record of 'SIA 1, '2, or '3 models. This may be because SIA licence-built the Pomilio SP1, SP2, and SP3.

S.I.A. (Sociétà Italiana Aviazione), Turin

SIA SP 1 - 1916 Savoia Pomilio pusher biplane recce-bomber, x 1

SIA SP 2 - 1916 prod. vers. of SP 1 prototype, 1 x 250 hp FIAT A12

SIA SP 3 - 1917 SP 2 deriv. (improved crew accommodations)

SIA 4 - [??] NB: twin-engined SP 4 built by AER at Orbassano

SIA 5 - 1916 pusher biplane recce-bomber (licenced Farman MF.11)
- SIA 5: 100 hp 9.5L Fiat A.10 6-cyl repl. Fr. Gnome rotary

SIA 6b: 1917 recce biplane, aka Savoia-Pomilio SP.3
-- SIA's impr'd SP.2, higher power, shortened wings
- SIA 6b: 2-seat tandem in nacelle, twin-boom tails
- SIA 6b: 1 x 250 hp Fiat A.12 6-cyl.,* span 14.70 m
-- * Some a/c fitted with 300 hp Fiat A.12bis pusher
-- SIA 6b by SIA, SP.3 by Società Italiana Transaerea

SIA 7b - 1917 2-seat recce-bomber biplane, 13.30 m span, x 572
- SIA 7b series: 1 x 260 hp Fiat A12 or 300 hp A12bis 6-cyl
- SIA 7b1: Init. prod', unstaggered wings, lower cockpit
- SIA 7b2: Impr. vers., strengthened wings, higher cockpit
-- Designed by Ing Torretta and Carlo Maurilio Lerici

SIA 8b: 1918 2-seat tandem reconnaissance biplane, x 1
- SIA 8b: 1 x 300 hp Fiat A.12bis 6-cyl., span (??) m
- SIA 8b: Unstaggered 2-bay cellule w/ reduced space
-- Retained SIA 7b2 fuselage, empennage, and u/c

SIA 9b - 1918 2-seat recce-bomber biplane, 15.50 m span, x 191
- SIA 9b: 7b2 deriv, 1 x 700 hp Fiat A.14 liquid-cooled V-12

SIA 10 - SIA 13 - [??]

SIA 14b - 1916 twin-boomed heavy bomber, 32.90m span, x 2
- SIA 14b: 2 x 600 hp Fiat A.14 V-12 engines, aka SIA 1200
-- http://flyingmachines.ru/Site2/Crafts/Craft29047.htm

The early B.R./C.R. Rosatelli designs are listed below (I haven't found any record of plain 'R' or 'R.1'types):

SAI R.2 - 1918 2-seat recce biplane, 12.30 m span, x 129
- R.2: 7b2 deriv., short-span, 1 x 300 hp 6-cyl Fiat A12bis
-- R.2: 4 x ex-Italian a/c oper. by Turkish forces after WWI

B.R. - 1919 2-seat light bomber, 1 x 700 hp Fiat A.14 V-12 engine
- B.R.: Conventional wing struts as per SIA 9b, 15.50 m span
-- B 1: Swed. Flygvapnet desig. for ex-Flygkompaniet B.R.s
- R.700 - 1922 B.R. deriv. for absolute airspeed record, 210 mph
-- R.700 also participated in Coupe Deutsch de la Meurthe in 1922

B.R.1 - 1924, improved B.R., Warren truss wing bracing struts
- B.R.1: 1 x 700 hp Fiat A.12 V12, 17,30 m span, x 150
-- B 2: Swed. Flygvapnet desig. for ex-Flygkompaniet B.R.1s

B.R.2 - 1925, improv. B.R.1, 1 x V12 Fiat A.25,* 17.30 m span
-- * 54.48 L A.25 power given as 1,090 hp TO, 950 hp sustained
- R.22 - reduced-scale, all-metal B.R.2 derivative recce a/c
-- R.22: 1 x 570 hp 27.5 L V12 Fiat A.22T, 14.00 m span, x 25

B.R.3 - 1930 B.R.2 deriv., main gear shocks, H-P slats, x 100

B.R.4 - 193? aerodynamically improved B.R.3 prototype(s)*
- B.R.4: Radiator under engine, spatted landing gears
-- * x 1 but two Matricole Militari listed, MM.240/.241

C.R. - 1923 biplane fighter prototypes for C.R.1, MM.1/MM.2
- C.R.: Warren truss wing bracing, longer-span lower wings

C.R.1 - 1925 biplane fighter, 1 x 300 hp V8 HS-42, 8.95 m span
- C.R.1 : Hispano-Suiza 42, x 240 built, x 9 to Latvia
- C.R.1 : Re-eng. w/ IF Asso Caccia V12 [distinct designation?]
-- 'CR.1 Asso': speculative desig. for re-engined aircraft
- C.R.2 : C.R.1 re-engined with 1 x Armstrong Siddeley Lynx radial
- C.R.3 : [??]
- C.R.4 : [??]
- C.R.5 : C.R.1 re-engined with 1 x 420 hp Alfa Romeo Jupiter
- C.R.6 : [??]
- C.R.7 : [??]
- C.R.8 : [??]
- C.R.9 : [??]
- C.R.10: C.R.1 re-engined with 1 x 410hp Fiat A.20 v12

- C.R.20 - 1926 biplane fighter, Warren truss , 9.80 m span
- C.R.20: 1 x 420 hp Fiat A.20 V12, x 250 (approx)
- C.R.20B: 2wo-seat, dual-control trainer/comms a/c
- C.R.20-I: aka C.R.20 Idro, twin-float fighter, x 46
- C.R.20bis: impr. pilot accomm., landing gear, x 235
- C.R.20bisAQ : CR.20bis w/ high-altitude Fiat A.20AQ V12
- C.R.20 Asso: 1 x 450 hp IF Asso Caccia V12, x 204

 

[hesham]

Of course,that's a fantastic work,my dear Apophenia,

and for SIA,I want to add;

Monoplane 1913 : was tandem two seat mid-wing monoplane,with strange main landing gear.

SIA.14B or 1200 : was a twin engined biplane bomber of 1916/1917,it had a twin boom
configuration.

SIA.3 was a fighter,but I not sure about this design.

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks Hesham.

I'd forgotten about the SIA 14B! I've added it and filled in the Savoia Pomilio gaps.

Interesting about the 1913 monoplane but that design was by a different 'SIA' -- in this case, the La Societa Italiana degli Aeroplani based in Milan. The Sociétà Italiana Aviazione of Turin is usually said to have been established in 1915/'16.

Attached is an image of the B.R.4 prototype found on eBay.

 

[hesham]

You are right my dear Apophenia,


I think they are the same company.

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks Hesham. It's an easy mistake to make. I note on theaerodrome.com a mention of the Societa Italiana degli Aeroplani being the builders of the Pomilio series. Of course, we know that those 'SP' series aircraft were built by the Sociétà Italiana Aviazione in Turin :

The Societa Italiana degli Aeroplani was formed by D. Lawrence Santoni, manager of the British Deperdussin Company in London. So, naturally, the original SIA of Milan had the Italian rights to Deperdussin monoplanes. Interesting character, Santoni who was a Swiss citizen but resident of London. Aside from SIA and British Deperdussin, he also set up CAMS (Chantiers Aéro-Maritimes de la Seine) in 1920 (originally to import SIAI flying boats into France).

Below is a link to a Flight article on the SIA monoplane (note the name 'Roma' on the rudder).
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1913/1913%20-%200829.PDF

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Apophenia,


and SIA.8 was a recce landplane aircraft,but no more details,I forgot to
speak about it.

 

[Maveric]

Better quality of the B.R.4...

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks folks (Hesham, SIA 8 added).

A puzzle remains: Fiat (as 'FIAT Sezione Aviazione'?) flew its first licence-built Farman MF-5B (100 hp Fiat A.10) in Oct 1915. That's before the formation of their Sociétà Italiana Aviazione subsidiary. So what was the Italian MF-5B's designation?

 

[hesham]

OK my dear Apophenia,


I will try to remember,where I got SIA.8.

 

[Stargazer]

Topics merged.

The splitting of early vs. postwar is not recommended in the designations section, unless a whole new system was started perhaps. However, Fiat designations (notably the G. system) started before the war and continued long after it.

Here is a list of aircraft built by Fiat and associated companies, as published by British magazine Air Pictorial in 1958:

 

[Stargazer]

A genealogy of the Fiat G.91 and its derivative designs as of 1965:

 

[alemilb]

hi everybody

here attached the first part of the projects by Gabrielli list, source is FIAT historical office.

Ale

 

[alemilb]

part 2 (total is 4)

 

[hesham]

Amazing list Alemilb,many thanks.

 

[hesham]

Hi Alemilb,


please can you complete the rest of the list,and thanks.

 

[alemilb]

3 rd part