The Davidson window: conflict between the U.S. and PRC

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Another technical realm where the U.S. has an advantage, at least for the moment: space launchers.

I think it would be fair to say that if anything the PRC has moved ahead in its relentless deployment of military assets to space, and its advancement in ASAT weapons and GEO remote sensing satellites eclipse the U.S. But the U.S. does have a current advantage in boosters, primarily via the Falcon 9 system. The gap might seem manageable at first glance: for 2023 and 2024 the number of launches favored the U.S. by only 2:1, and obviously a huge percentage of those were Starlink missions. But if you look at the…throw weight, for lack of a better term…of the rockets used, the discrepancy is much, much larger. At 17,000 kg to low eartg orbit, F9 is considered a medium lift system (5,000 - 20,000 kg to LEO) when recovered. However , it is at the very edge of what is considered ‘medium’. If expended completely, it actually crosses over 20 tons into ‘heavy’ territory. A comparison I did of every PRC launch for the year 2023 compared to just the F9 launches of the same year showed a payload gap of roughly 7 : 1, excluding other platforms. The number of objects orbited by both sides that year was 2300 : 200 (ish). A complete apples to apples analysis would require the mass, inclination, apogee, and perigee of everything launched and I am not about to do that. But those two back of a Deny’s placemat calculations show that the U.S. can launch roughly an order of magnitude more stuff into LEO any given year.

Now again, a huge number of these launches were Starlink and the majority of the remainder were civilian, often not even for US based organizations. But the U.S. is now poised to capitalize on its advantage. The NRO has begun spamming remote sensing satellites into space as part of its proliferated constellation, with eight missions delivering 150+ satellites in about ten months time (in addition to other missions and orbital regimes). The SDA has ten missions on the books to deploy 126 communications satellites and a network of 30+ missile tracking satellites inside a year starting this summer (after nearly a year of delays). 200 more satellites are on order for SDA’s Incr 2, with planned launch dates in the 2026-2027 timeframe. By 2030, the proliferation constellations of NRO and SDA likely reach a thousand platforms all on their own.

And of course we cannot help but mention Starlink here, even though it is a nominally civilian system: it still equips every Army TOC, is proliferating across naval ships, and is installed on vehicles as small as those 4x4 golf carts the USMC uses. In Ukraine they are used down to the fireteam level by sniper/scouts operating in the Gray Zones. It clearly is a key military enabling capability, and one for which there is no Chinese equivalent: the first satellites for a similar PRC system started launching only in the last year.

The PRC has over a half a dozen rocket programs, both private and government, set to launch for the first time just in 2025 alone (a couple already have). Moreover it can to some degree keep up with the U.S. simply by prioritizing military payloads: a full half of its launches are military related in 2023-2024. But it will take a monumental increase in cadence rate just to overcome F9 by itself, and the numbers and types of rockets available to the U.S. space industry is also growing. New Glenn has entered the market as has Vulcan, and while the former has demonstrated no recovery it has full recovery hardware developed and installed. The latter is fully disposable but none the less has much reduced costs over its predecessors and a very ambitious launch cadence scheduled. Two more companies were just added to Space Forces vendor list, and at some point in the future it seems all but certain that super heavy is militarized, with perhaps its first reuse occurring in mere weeks.

I have no doubt the PRC will start to close the gap, if not this year than the next, by proliferating all of its rocket lines even if they are older models or newer ones that are still single use. But it will be pouring money into those projects and likely not be on an equal footing for a decade or two, given that US recoverable super heavies are already on the cusp of entering service while the Chinese space industry is largely trying to catch up to Falcon 9.
 
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Keep in mind, fighting is a last resort and both countries are equipped enough to annihilate each other, theater level conflicts aside. Both countries understand that well.

China's advantage has been playing the long game because they have patience, and it's been working. They will continue to use Art of War style tactics to subvert and erode western influence around the globe where they can.

Not known to most folks but Africa is an economic development project & future NATO style military alliance that China's been putting resources towards over the last decade or so. And because of that, they already have the advantage there and once they develop Africa, that will be another point of fortification for them. Expect to see more regional conflicts there as the West & China fight for influence.

This will be a very long game, no major fighting yet.
 
China's advantage has been playing the long game because they have patience, and it's been working. They will continue to use Art of War style tactics to subvert and erode western influence around the globe where they can.

This is often put out there along with the concept of thinking decades ahead rather than years. But I think it is worth pointing out not every long term decision is necessarily a good one. I would argue One Child has doomed the PRC to population implosion regardless of any policies it adopts going forward, and that the effects on GDP will ultimately be catastrophic. There is a lot of room for increased productivity per worker in China, but barring productivity being total divorced from population by some extreme forms of automation, there is no way GDP does not stagnate when millions of laborers leave the work force annually. That loss accelerates to tens of millions per year inside roughly a decade.

I would also argue that the days of explosive Chinese growth have ended, and that this is partly to blame on government economic decisions. The property development industry is devastated and will never reach previous levels with a declining population. Infrastructure investment is returning ever less returns, to the point of shear over development in most regions. The labor market is totally unbalanced, with a huge cadre of unemployed young educated white collar workers and a lack of skilled factory labor. Some outside estimates claim PRC GDP growth rates of 5% are more than double the actual number. This another reason I think conflict might come this decade - we might have already witnessed peak China pre COVID and not realized it. Certainly any number produced by the CCP are questionable, and even those seem to indicate much more modest future growth.
 
I would argue One Child has doomed the PRC to population implosion regardless of any policies it adopts going forward, and that the effects on GDP will ultimately be catastrophic.
It's overestimated in effects, which is the cruel tragedy of this.
Population curves on both sides of the strait(PRC and Taiwan) are almost absurdly similar.
But that's nice to be smart later - PRC leadership(quite well educated in significant layers) knew their stuff.
Few national histories teach about risks of overpopulation as much as chinese one.
 
It would be interesting if China became more inward looking over the coming decades concentrating on building upon the advances made over recent decades in similar vein to the US. ?
Who knows we may be seeing the UK. and Europe as the expansionist belligerant nation states in coming years ? (a wounded animal in decline is at its most dangerous)
 
Another technical realm where the U.S. has an advantage, at least for the moment: space launchers.
True. But this is direction Chinese also working on rather hard. They are firmly set on developing their own re-usable first stages, and then fully reusable launch systems (as well as testing unorthodox approach, like mass drivers).
 
It would be interesting if China became more inward looking over the coming decades concentrating on building upon the advances made over recent decades in similar vein to the US. ?
Who knows we may be seeing the UK. and Europe as the expansionist belligerant nation states in coming years ? (a wounded animal in decline is at its most dangerous)
Well, the thing is, China is traditionally inward-looking. Outside expansion and influence is firmly viewed as "for the good of the China first and foremost." The (more or less) traditional Chinese model is not a world-spanning empire, but China as the world cultural and economic core, surrounded by most trusted neighbors (modelling their culture and socium after China), then client states and areas of interest.
 
In fact, the Americans have no reason to get involved in a war of this magnitude, which is not in their interest, and I have good reason to believe that China and the United States will not go to war, and in the same way, I don't think that predicting the future of China is a simple matter, will anyone predict China from 2010 to 2022? Ten or even twenty years from now, maybe we're all wrong, and I dare say that many people don't actually know about China, let alone have ever been there.
 
In fact, the Americans have no reason to get involved in a war of this magnitude, which is not in their interest, and I have good reason to believe that China and the United States will not go to war, and in the same way, I don't think that predicting the future of China is a simple matter, will anyone predict China from 2010 to 2022? Ten or even twenty years from now, maybe we're all wrong, and I dare say that many people don't actually know about China, let alone have ever been there.
Well, the best outcome would likely be for Taiwan to rejoin the China willingly. US would, of course, be screaming and moaning about "twilight of freedom" and other nonsence, but actually would be extremely glad for this geopolitical headache to disappear.
 
In fact, the Americans have no reason to get involved in a war of this magnitude, which is not in their interest, and I have good reason to believe that China and the United States will not go to war, and in the same way, I don't think that predicting the future of China is a simple matter, will anyone predict China from 2010 to 2022? Ten or even twenty years from now, maybe we're all wrong, and I dare say that many people don't actually know about China, let alone have ever been there.
Yes, true wisdom '--arrogance' is the danger. Predicting the future of China is difficult.
Of course, the goal is multiple unifications, with the banning of the CP and authoritarianism and display of the red star, the hammer & sickle strictly or any vestige of communism prohibited. A new China and a reunified Ukraine, Belarus, and Russian federation with its capital Kyiv.
 
For WW1 style barrier minefields, i'd argue it's probably better to use same instruments. I.e. converted surface vessels.
It's honestly a bit hard to imagine a situation where it's too late for such ship, but not too late for very, very vulnerable transport aircraft.
Likely depends on what else those boats are doing.


Also, given that C-17 is not in production, and they're among the most important enablers of whole endevour in their primary role - i'd consider anything that takes them away from their job (and especially that puts them in harm's way, trying to pretend they're ca.1950 level bombers) - wrong.
C-17s regularly fly into harms way, at least as much harms way as this should be. They regularly fly into positions where all sorts of radars are tracking them.
 
100% agree here, Chinese "short term plans" seem to be 10 years out, and typical planning seems to be 50 years out. Which is something that the West in general and the US in particular has completely lost.
Taiwan isn't moving anywhere, while the whole geopolitics can be become irrelevant in far shorter period of time. Semiconductors was only a two decades thing. If the island goes back to growing bananas I don't think anyone outside of "world order people" would care.
Well, the best outcome would likely be for Taiwan to rejoin the China willingly.
It would be best for China to drop Taiwan issue as a basis for nationalist ideology. It is an ideology that does nothing for anyone except the ruling class in China. I don't think the ruling class needs better justification if it can navigate the modern challenges of huge unstable feedback cycles in population, economy and culture, while if they failed it certainly wouldn't be helped by starting a war.
 
It appears to me that the iterative approach China seems to be doing with its carrier designs has been a massive success in terms of technology, CONOPS, and operational experience. I believe that unless there is a sudden breakthrough in carrier technologies, the Type 004 will be seen as the final iteration before design finalization. In that case, I can't help but wonder how many Type 005s the CCP plans on building, especially considering the shipbuilding capacity available to them. Given how fast they built the Type 004, I can't help but feel that 3-5 Type 005s could likely be built simultaneously within a 2-3 year window.
 
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Well, the best outcome would likely be for Taiwan to rejoin the China willingly. US would, of course, be screaming and moaning about "twilight of freedom" and other nonsence, but actually would be extremely glad for this geopolitical headache to disappear.

This is the most likely outcome if the US tanks their economy IMO. It will be interesting to see if Japan follows suit or sticks with America.
 
It would be best for China to drop Taiwan issue as a basis for nationalist ideology. It is an ideology that does nothing for anyone except the ruling class in China. I don't think the ruling class needs better justification if it can navigate the modern challenges of huge unstable feedback cycles in population, economy and culture, while if they failed it certainly wouldn't be helped by starting a war.
It would be best for USA to drop Cuban Revolution issue long ago, and? Nations are rarely fully rational in the matters of wounded pride, and China is not an exception. The Taiwan is basically the last reminder about enormous national humiliations China suffered from foreign powers in XIX-XX century; the territory that some foreign guys cut from China just because they wanted so. Worse even, this tiny island with tiny population for decades was recognized as "real" China.
 
Taiwan isn't moving anywhere, while the whole geopolitics can be become irrelevant in far shorter period of time. Semiconductors was only a two decades thing. If the island goes back to growing bananas I don't think anyone outside of "world order people" would care.

It would be best for China to drop Taiwan issue as a basis for nationalist ideology. It is an ideology that does nothing for anyone except the ruling class in China. I don't think the ruling class needs better justification if it can navigate the modern challenges of huge unstable feedback cycles in population, economy and culture, while if they failed it certainly wouldn't be helped by starting a war.
If I'm not mistaken, China's one-country-two-system system was actually specific to the Taiwan issue, and unlike Hong Kong at the time, Taiwan was even allowed to retain a sizable force, and Taiwan was even able to get a sizable number of seats in Beijing. Beijing has promised not to station troops in Taiwan. There is only one premise for this, that is, to recognize oneself as China and the Chinese government, and the only thing to do is to hang the five-star red flag in one's own region. To be honest, when I first read this, I even thought it was a compromise in sorts. Of course, you can say that Chinese mainland does have nationalist overtones on certain issues, but in fact, for Taiwan, they seem to be the same. Neither history nor legal treaties have any evidence to prove that Taiwan has the qualifications to become a country...I believe that the Taiwan authorities' declaration of "independence" is an irrational result...
 
Well, the best outcome would likely be for Taiwan to rejoin the China willingly. US would, of course, be screaming and moaning about "twilight of freedom" and other nonsence, but actually would be extremely glad for this geopolitical headache to disappear.

The best outcome is the Chinese Communist Party leaving a country it never controlled alone.

In any case, there is no significant popular support for such a move. The crackdown on Hong Kong clearly displayed that ‘one country, two systems’ is unworkable.

TSMC ensures that the U.S. will have a vested interest in who runs the island.
 
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No support... You'd better look at the positions of governments around the world on the question of whether Taiwan is part of China... To be honest, there is really no reason for Americans to get involved in the Taiwan issue, especially since it was the Americans who hindered the Chinese Communist Party's march into Taiwan...
 
The best outcome is the Chinese Communist Party leaving a country it never controlled alone
On the other hand, why can't US just left the China alone?) As I noted numerous time, US positions in Chinese-Taiwanese conflict are extremely unfounded. US did not recognize Taiwan anymore, which made any kind of support to the island borderline illegal even by American laws (its essentially supporting an armed rebellion against the fully-recognized government)

No support... You'd better look at the positions of governments around the world on the question of whether Taiwan is part of China... To be honest, there is really no reason for Americans to get involved in the Taiwan issue, especially since it was the Americans who hindered the Chinese Communist Party's march into Taiwan...
Essentially it boils down to American internal politics. The party that suggest "screw the Taiwan, it's not worthy to risk a global war over the island we don't even recognize!" would be immediately attacked by the other party and certainly lose the elections. So both parties are forced to express at least formal support for Taiwan.
 
Essentially it boils down to American internal politics. The party that suggest "screw the Taiwan, it's not worthy to risk a global war over the island we don't even recognize!" would be immediately attacked by the other party and certainly lose the elections. So both parties are forced to express at least formal support for Taiwan.

Are you American? This is not accurate.
 
Nope, I'm Russian.

I can promise you that the majority of Americans do not know much about Taiwan and do not care much either way. Republicans, in fact, are very isolationist now and probably wouldn't support a war of a dubious value proposition. If the Chinese are extremely stupid, they will surprise-attack US forces in the region, another Pearl Harbor, guaranteeing a vicious response from the US (a sneak attack killing thousands of US soldiers and sinking multiple ships will have Americans putting aside their differences and demanding Chinese blood). If the CCP is smart, which I believe they are, they won't touch Americans unless absolutely forced to, and there will be no political will in the US for an intervention.
 
I can promise you that the majority of Americans do not know much about Taiwan and do not care much either way. Republicans, in fact, are very isolationist now and probably wouldn't support a war of a dubious value proposition
Please. The majority of Americans do not know anything about Crimea or Ukraine pre-2014. But as soon as both parties started to exploit the matter for their own benefits, it suddenly become a question of importance for American pubic.

The same for Taiwan. While the majority of Americans knew little about both island and geopolitical controvercy around it, therd is a vocal minority from both sides that WOULD turn it into the question of importance - if only to score points on nearest elections. And the Republican party have enough Cold War relics-in-power to scream loudly about any inclination toward getting rid of Taiwan.
 
If the Chinese are extremely stupid, they will surprise-attack US forces in the region, another Pearl Harbor, guaranteeing a vicious response from the US (a sneak attack killing thousands of US soldiers and sinking multiple ships will have Americans putting aside their differences and demanding Chinese blood
They likely won't do anything like that - i.e. they won't hit the American forces first - but they would surely engage any American attempt to break the blockade. Which, of course, would be portrayed by American press as "dastardly unprovoked attack" and anger public opinion into demanding "to do something". The question, therefore, is "would Americans dare to try?"
 
If the CCP is smart, which I believe they are, they won't touch Americans unless absolutely forced to, and there will be no political will in the US for an intervention.
...and then get annihilated by a well prepared US attack on extremely vulnerable landing and blockading operations, loosing any shot at sea superiority in one swoop.

Japanese attacked Philippines not because they were stupid, they did because the risk was just unbearable.
 
I can promise you that the majority of Americans do not know much about Taiwan and do not care much either way. Republicans, in fact, are very isolationist now and probably wouldn't support a war of a dubious value proposition. If the Chinese are extremely stupid, they will surprise-attack US forces in the region, another Pearl Harbor, guaranteeing a vicious response from the US (a sneak attack killing thousands of US soldiers and sinking multiple ships will have Americans putting aside their differences and demanding Chinese blood). If the CCP is smart, which I believe they are, they won't touch Americans unless absolutely forced to, and there will be no political will in the US for an intervention.
Hmmm... Interestingly, as a 100% Chinese, maybe the identity of Chinese itself is disgusting to you, but I can tell you very clearly that in China, no one is stupid enough to take the initiative to attack your military bases, provided that you do not deploy to Taiwan, and in our opinion, if any of our achievements over the years cannot guarantee even the most basic territorial integrity, then we will be absolutely disappointed. We may not know much about the lives of Americans, but judging from the rumors of your so-called social credit score system, Americans must not understand China, and you really need to understand the determination of the Chinese on the Taiwan issue, I can only say that if the Americans really get involved in the Taiwan issue, the Chinese are bound to go all out. I don't want to argue with anyone here, that's just the most basic attitude of the vast majority of Chinese.
 
...and then get annihilated by a well prepared US attack on extremely vulnerable landing and blockading operations, loosing any shot at sea superiority in one swoop.
This is based on assumption that Americans would A - have significant forces avaliable on hands to mount such counter-attack, and B - have political will to react immediately, and not after discussing the matter, achieving bipartisan support and ensuring allies involvement.

Unless a rather significant part of American naval and air forces would be pre-deployed well in advance, any attempt of attacking the landing or blockading force would likely be repelled. And unless there would be an agreement already achieved, US government would likely not act before ensuring both parties support for high-risk military actions. The risks of heavy losses in politically dubious situation is just too great for any single party to dare to act; the opposition could too easily capitalize on "they send American boys TO DEATH in the situation we shouldn't be involved at all!"
 
Hmmm... Interestingly, as a 100% Chinese, maybe the identity of Chinese itself is disgusting to you, but I can tell you very clearly that in China, no one is stupid enough to take the initiative to attack your military bases, provided that you do not deploy to Taiwan, and in our opinion, if any of our achievements over the years cannot guarantee even the most basic territorial integrity, then we will be absolutely disappointed. We may not know much about the lives of Americans, but judging from the rumors of your so-called social credit score system, Americans must not understand China, and you really need to understand the determination of the Chinese on the Taiwan issue, I can only say that if the Americans really get involved in the Taiwan issue, the Chinese are bound to go all out. I don't want to argue with anyone here, that's just the most basic attitude of the vast majority of Chinese.
That is about what I expected.

The problem (for the US) is that the US told Mao in 1949 to go ahead and invade the island of Formosa, finish the civil war. But by the time Mao got all the troops and ships in place in 1950, some Stalin-backed idiot named Kim was stomping through Korea and scared the US into Domino Theory. Which resulted in the US telling Mao things have changed, that if he wanted to take the island of Formosa, he'd have to do it over the burning wreckage of 7th Fleet.

Which makes the defense of the Republic of China against a Communist invasion/civil war a matter of national honor for the US.

But if Taiwan declares independence from China, that's a different argument, and the US is not honor-bound to defend them anymore.

Whether there's enough people in the US that still care about national honor is a separate discussion.
 
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