The aesthetics of helicopter design

ADVANCEDBOY said:
I am for the beauty of a machine. When you saw Bird of Prey being released were you stunned by its design or rather dissapointed by its subpar performance? How about Tacit Blue? How about A-12 Avenger II? What would you like to see- F-15 with improved performance or F-19 declassified and released even if it went no faster than Mach 1 ?

Although I'm pretty much of your opinion here, we must also keep in mind that all of this cost fortunes, and aesthetic considerations will not keep a program going in these financially tough times. A Congressman only cares that an aircraft can do the job it has been assigned to and keep the costs in check...
 
@AdvancedBoy: Airbus introduced the A380, but they also introduced the updated A320NEO and forced Boeing to do a 737 reengineering. Airbus could have made a completely new design, but they decided to go for an update, since apparently it made cost-benifit wise more sense. I also like better new and unconventional designs, but lower risk and less cost will be most important for big OEMs (thanks for "garage engineering companies" that push unconventional stuff)
 
Boeing 737- first flight in 1967. Airbus A-320 in 1987. Once Airbus A320 gets nosejob in 2033 without actual next-gen replacement, report back to me, I will bi****slap ` em. Until then, facepalm goes to Boeing.
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
Engineering to you is how pretty the helicopter looks on the outside based on your personal preference.

Engineering to me is the construction of the important elements that make a helicopter fly, safely.
Expanding on TaiidanTomcat's point, engineering isn't just producing a product that flies safely, it's flying safely while bringing the project in on time and to budget, and without introducing unnecessary complexity. In essence being risk averse in all of operational, engineering, project management, testing, regulatory adherence and fiscal responsibility, while still meeting the underlying requirements.

Think aesthetics don't matter? Ask a corporate salesman.


Think futuristic aesthetics are a guaranteed win? Ask the corporate salesmen for the Boeing Sonic Cruiser or the Beech Starship.


Think customers will queue up for a daring new set of specs? Ask the Sonic Cruiser and Starship salesmen again. Customers want very specific things from new aircraft, and daring isn't one of them. Study what the trade press reveals about the relationships between Airbus or Boeing and their customers. The customers have very specific requirements on passenger-seat/mile costs, capacity and range, ignore them and they'll walk away to the airframer who will listen, which is why Boeing is playing catch-up with 737 Max to Airbus with A320 Neo - Airbus listened when customers said they weren't ready to switch to new narrowbody designs, but weren't happy about buying current generation aircraft for the next decade without new engines and aero-tweaks, Boeing tried sticking to their guns, lost the better part of a year of sales opportunities and were left playing catch-up.

Think fiscal stuff isn't important? Ask the bosses at Hawker, or Fokker, or Cirrus, or Adam, or any of a host of others who've collapsed under the fiscal pressure of bringing aircraft to market.

Think the most rigid structure possible is the safest? Go and look at the actual accident stats. The major safety issue for commercial helicopter operations is controlled flight into terrain or obstructions. That prioritizes pilot visibility (and VFR+IFR training). Structure is still vital, but structural rigidity isn't the optimum path to crash survivability, you need to tune the structure to what works best, and that usually means a mix of rigidity and designed in crumple paths. A structure that resists damage in a crash, but subjects the self-loading cargo to non-survivable accelerations isn't a safe structure.

Think the costs of existing installed infrastructure can be ignored? Why do you think we identify major airlines as specifically Boeing or specifically Airbus customers? The costs and disruption of switching airframer, or engine manufacturer, have to be exceeded by the future gains to be made.

When you think about engineering, you can't simply want something to look a specific way, or use some apparently cool new technology, you need to look at everything that flows into the design, construction, and operation of the aircraft as a single integrated system.
 
ADVANCEDBOY said:
Boeing 737- first flight in 1967. Airbus A-320 in 1987. Once Airbus A320 gets nosejob in 2033 without actual next-gen replacement, report back to me, I will bi****slap ` em. Until then, facepalm goes to Boeing.
That 'facepalm' landed Boeing around $100Bn just in its latest warm-over in the last year. I suspect most businesses looking at $100Bn of orders will be quite happy to let anyone who wants to facepalm themselves get on with it while laughing all the way to the bank. Nor is the age of the original design significant when Boeing are talking about fuel burn figures for the Max as good as those of the A320 Neo. The original design may be closing in on 50, the engines and the contemporary aerodynamics aren't.
 
I dare say that Boeing is considering the "adventures" it has with the 787 now. Although it is not that much different, I think, than the pain with 777. I agree with DWG's statement "The major safety issue for commercial helicopter operations is controlled flight into terrain or obstructions. That prioritizes pilot visibility (and VFR+IFR training)." This is the same problem with military rotorcraft, human error. The vast majority ~70% of all helicopters the US military has lost over the last ten years has been to human error, vice enemy action. The real radical changes in rotorcraft for the most part are being done internally. The design changes are only going to happen if customers demand a radical change in speed, efficiency and the likes.
 
yasotay said:
I agree with DWG's statement "The major safety issue for commercial helicopter operations is controlled flight into terrain or obstructions. That prioritizes pilot visibility (and VFR+IFR training)." This is the same problem with military rotorcraft, human error. The vast majority ~70% of all helicopters the US military has lost over the last ten years has been to human error, vice enemy action. The real radical changes in rotorcraft for the most part are being done internally. The design changes are only going to happen if customers demand a radical change in speed, efficiency and the likes.

Yep. Also, you continue to remain a viable business if you make aircraft that the people who can afford helicopters prefer, rather than what the internet analysts would wish you to produce while not paying for any of the aircraft.
 
Unfortunately it is not the customer who decides in a case of large passenger jet planes. As if the passenger would memorise the brand and model of the plane and then start nitpicking about how they would rather not fly with this bird but wait another day to choose a better option. Passengers rather care about costs and safe flight . Well, companies tend to either stick to a paradigm, and then manufacturers exploit their legend until it withers with lack of new products, or they are pragmatic and go for the best option out there. When Boeing tried to pull wool over their lazy R&D stunts by refusing to create a large jumbojet replacement, while Airbus went from a clean slate, they thought that customers would buy in droves their aging 747. Boeing calculated ( the same way Monsanto calculated harmlessness of GMOs resorting to short term tests, sigh?) by that there is no market for jumbo jets. Funny enough they considered there would be market for their old 747. I believe Airbus is going the right direction by cranking out new and new models. Their upcoming 350 should be a segment mover. Airbus will be the global commercial jet manufacturing leader. There is simply no other way around. Once you have found the correct solution, which is - it is all about the product, their diversity and quality, there is no way Boeing can keep up by rebadging old MDDs or upgrading old aging platforms to compete with elbow greasing Airbus. Beancounting has wiped almost all manufacturing in US, and negligence to domestic based engineering expertise has lead to demise of great brands. What is Boing`s next call? To base their sales strategy on one largely outsourced 787 smoking Delayliner? How do they plan to fight against adversaries that roll up their sleeves and do it the real way- by engineering and building stuff? By lobbying congress and creating legups for large bids? I thought Detroit in shambles has taught you a lesson, what happens when your eyes shine too much about the size of profits while discarding local communities and local workforce as negligible factor. It tends to send a blowback. I am an aviation enthusiast, and all I care is about actually building new stuff and unless you heavily invest fat profits in your R&D coffers, I wouldn`t give Aardvark`s posterior about how much money would be made by corprate CEOs or rich slimy shareholders or how much it would move digital share prices in NASDAQ. Actually I see parallels between Boeing, Bose and Harley -Davidson and Bell. Not the good ones though.
That `s my 2 abrasive cents.
 
Maybe we are just playing with words here, but it is ALWAYS the customer who decides on the purchase of the airplane (or helicopter). The passenger is NOT the customer in this transaction. It is the airline operator, or more specifically the airline's accountants. The passenger is the customer when buying a SERVICE (a ride on some airliner or helicopter). That is a completely separate business transaction.

This means that the airframe seller (be it Boeing or Bell) has to keep THEIR customer in mind when designing a new product. The Boeings and Bells of the world are only concerned about passengers to the extent that their customers are concerned. And nowadays that level of concern is fairly low.
 
Bill Walker said:
Maybe we are just playing with words here, but it is ALWAYS the customer who decides on the purchase of the airplane (or helicopter). The passenger is NOT the customer in this transaction. It is the airline operator, or more specifically the airline's accountants. The passenger is the customer when buying a SERVICE (a ride on some airliner or helicopter). That is a completely separate business transaction.

This means that the airframe seller (be it Boeing or Bell) has to keep THEIR customer in mind when designing a new product. The Boeings and Bells of the world are only concerned about passengers to the extent that their customers are concerned. And nowadays that level of concern is fairly low.

Most people who fly on airliners couldn't pick the one they just deplaned out of a lineup . Passengers really could give a Aardvarks posterior about aircraft engineering unless it involves putting a TV into a seat.

Thats the world we live in. I know in my imagination we fly passengers on huge flying wings and dart like super airliners that dwarf the titanic and cost $20,000 a ticket, while tilt rotor helicopters zip about, with hover cars watching, and jet pack people waving goodbye.
 
ADVANCEDBOY said:
. Funny enough they considered there would be market for their old 747. I believe Airbus is going the right direction by cranking out new and new models. Their upcoming 350 should be a segment mover. Airbus will be the global commercial jet manufacturing leader.

Care to revise your statements?
 
Function drives design. The necessary functions of a system are selected by the operators of the system. In the public sector, operators have a responsibility to taxpayers to select the best balance of function and cost. In the private, the same responsibility to shareholders. Neither taxpayers nor shareholders have historically weighted aesthetic beauty heavily in the list of priorities they expect to be pursued.

The engineer's job is to pursue elegance and simplicity in accomplishing a system that functions to spec. So we end up with a convergence towards a common ideal configuration for a specific goal. The job of pursuing aesthetics is for the guy who designs the paint scheme, the guy who takes the promo photos, and the guy who designs the trade show flyers.

Sometimes, some people on the internet may find the common shape subjectively ugly. That's a shame, because there is beauty in well-executed design to a spec. It helps if you understand the "why" when you're looking at the product.

That's just me though
 
Reaper said:
Bell shows new concept helicopter
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4301918/Bell-unveils-helicopter-radical-shape-changing-blades.html

The video is interesting in terms of designer / engineer interaction, but the final concept is quite disappointing.

"Quite" disappointing? Really?

Bell Helicopter said that they built the concept aircraft to address the evolving demands of their customers.

Some of the features of the FCX-001 concept rotorcraft include:

* Aircraft frame made from advanced sustainable materials

* Anti-torque system in the tail boom designed to improve safety

* Airframe will harvest, store and distribute external energy or system energy

* Morphing rotor blades to optimize performance in different flight regimes

* Hybrid propulsion system composed of a thermal engine core

* Piloting system that can be controlled through augmented reality

* Artificial intelligence computer assistance system

* Augmented reality passenger cabin entertainment systems, including the ability to watch TV, hold a video conference call and share documents with other passengers.
 

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