Once again nice stuff...covert_shores said:Actually the Moray has some connection to recent US SDVs after the Mk.VIII Mod-0, which was developed at the same location. The annular air flasks for example are a feature of certain types.
And here's another interesting comparison, more so with the Moray than the Button. Bit of a tease, not sure if this is a known project or not. yet.
Swimmer Delivery Vehicle projects, old and new
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you are onto something there. that's also where the latest generation of submersible boats come into play.muttbutt said:
Thinking more on the Moray concept, there are clear precursors among the various midget submarine concepts in the 1910-1925 timeframe (e.g Devastor) although none that entered service. More directly there's the japanese Ko-Hyoteki two-man design which was originally intended as a high speed attack sub. The targets were battleships rather than other submarines but it's an interesting comparison. Of course I don't think there was much direct influence on Moray, just a precursor.
New article introducing the design progression of the FWS-5 Barracuda SDV. Plenty of rare (possibly exclusive in internet terms) info and photos. Full article: Link > Covert Shoresl
The FWS-1 > 4 definitely count as secret projects.
The FWS-1 > 4 definitely count as secret projects.
There's some footage here of Moray testing (14:29 mark). I'm not sure if you're aware of it or not, I stumbled on it and felt like sharing.covert_shores said:Actually the Moray has some connection to recent US SDVs after the Mk.VIII Mod-0, which was developed at the same location. The annular air flasks for example are a feature of certain types.
And here's another interesting comparison, more so with the Moray than the Button. Bit of a tease, not sure if this is a known project or not. yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vexL07Bh8c&feature=youtu.be&t=14m29s
Many thanks, great footage.
recently uploaded some general info about some unbuilt and experimental SDV projects: http://www.hisutton.com/SDV%20history%20-%20finding%20a%20missing%20link.html <<more description/images etc
recently uploaded some general info about some unbuilt and experimental SDV projects: http://www.hisutton.com/SDV%20history%20-%20finding%20a%20missing%20link.html <<more description/images etc
An article about R-2 Mala (small) submarines with a few pics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-2_Mala-class_swimmer_delivery_vehicle
And another one, with pictures of R-1 and R-2
http://www.vijesti.me/vijesti/u-buduci-ronilacki-muzej-stigle-diverzantske-ronilice-70017
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-2_Mala-class_swimmer_delivery_vehicle
And another one, with pictures of R-1 and R-2
http://www.vijesti.me/vijesti/u-buduci-ronilacki-muzej-stigle-diverzantske-ronilice-70017
A friendly submarine builder sent me some better images of the Rebikoff SDV projects.
The 'missing link' sub was designated DR-377 in mid-70s.
I think that is simply an earlier design for what became the PR-77 Phaeton. Rebikoff designations can be confusing because he had at least three SDV companies in both France and US which sold the same basic designs over twenty years or more.
Pegasus = T-14
Phaeton = PR-77 = DR-177 Jonah / Jonas
PR-25 = DR-325 (enclosed Pegasus)
There was also the DR-387 four-seat SDV project. I don't think that it was built.
The 'missing link' sub was designated DR-377 in mid-70s.
I think that is simply an earlier design for what became the PR-77 Phaeton. Rebikoff designations can be confusing because he had at least three SDV companies in both France and US which sold the same basic designs over twenty years or more.
Pegasus = T-14
Phaeton = PR-77 = DR-177 Jonah / Jonas
PR-25 = DR-325 (enclosed Pegasus)
There was also the DR-387 four-seat SDV project. I don't think that it was built.
Have updated and uploaded a few things onto the Covert Shores website. The Drakon-220 ('Dragon' in Croatian) midget sub design http://www.hisutton.com/New%20Croatian%20midget%20sub%20-%20Drakon%20220.html
Great stuff.
I just noticed that the Moray looks like it could have been used by Joseph Papp. Yeah, I know he was a major fake, but it does look like something he could have dreamed up. Everybody, please disagree with me.
I just noticed that the Moray looks like it could have been used by Joseph Papp. Yeah, I know he was a major fake, but it does look like something he could have dreamed up. Everybody, please disagree with me.
covert_shores said:Have updated and uploaded a few things onto the Covert Shores website. The Drakon-220 ('Dragon' in Croatian) midget sub design http://www.hisutton.com/New%20Croatian%20midget%20sub%20-%20Drakon%20220.html
Here's a link to topic on one of ex-yu military forums with a lot of pictures and sub specifications for Drakon 220. The price mentioned is 50 million euros. The sub can carry small saboteur submarines. The number 801 on the model is a tribute to previous Yugoslav submarine Nebojša/Tara which bore the same number.
http://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php/topic,26435.0.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_submarine_Nebojša
btw. the name for dragon in Serbocroatian (or if you want to be politicaly correct nowdays, in Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian and Montenigrin) is zmaj. Drakon is the name coined for western audiences.
Thanks for the info and correction re name.
Interesting that the Drakon is described and illustrated with four R-1s as the DPVs. They are ancient technology. Although popular with 82 MU they are basically sixty year old tech, fifty years if you start the story in Yugoslavia. If have thought they'd promote it as being compatible with Stidd or Rotinor DPVs. Or to court the Indonesian market Sea Shadow or the local evolved design.
Similarly there's no mentoon of carrying large mines like the M71 instead.
Overall this design brings the armament of the R-3E half way to the original M-100D and M-100E designs, but at over twice the surface displacement. Not a bad thing though as M-100D / M-100E were never workable.
Interesting that the Drakon is described and illustrated with four R-1s as the DPVs. They are ancient technology. Although popular with 82 MU they are basically sixty year old tech, fifty years if you start the story in Yugoslavia. If have thought they'd promote it as being compatible with Stidd or Rotinor DPVs. Or to court the Indonesian market Sea Shadow or the local evolved design.
Similarly there's no mentoon of carrying large mines like the M71 instead.
Overall this design brings the armament of the R-3E half way to the original M-100D and M-100E designs, but at over twice the surface displacement. Not a bad thing though as M-100D / M-100E were never workable.
Papp was a very clever guy but did his craft have any credibility from a conceptual or engineering perspective? I don't think so but I haven't seen a detailed slsescriotion of how it worked. How he controlled depth, attitude or maintained pressure hull integrity. Or store 13 hours of air supply. Looking at the craft it couldn't travel across the Atlantic if there was s railway bridge let along underwaterpapacavy said:
.
fantastic video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuo3Y8OjtIo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuo3Y8OjtIo
More pics (includingsome I approve of!!!covert_shores said:Back to current projects, Italian made Button-5.60 (UOES-3) for USSOCOM http://www.hisutton.com/SEALs%20+%20USSOCOM%20next%20generation%20sub%20UOES3.html
) http://www.corriere.it/esteri/15_giugno_22/mini-sub-italiano-navy-seals-progetto-un-azienda-triestina-da861e16-1901-11e5-9aa1-cadc98d103d7.shtml <in italian but easy to digest. note that some of the photos of the sub on the surface are of one of the civilian models. The high mounted hydroplanes are the giveaway.
The Covert Shores book is now out giving a full world history of Midget subs, SDVs etc
Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Covert-Shores-Special-Missions-Minisubs/dp/1502769492/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1436297073&sr=8-1&keywords=covert+shores
Book thread: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,25028.0.html
Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Covert-Shores-Special-Missions-Minisubs/dp/1502769492/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1436297073&sr=8-1&keywords=covert+shores
Book thread: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,25028.0.html
thanks Muttbutt. It's taken years but finally it's out. I may be wrong but I think that it's the only book properly about SDVs in existence.
Does this work? http://www.amazon.es/Covert-Shores-Special-Missions-Minisubs/dp/1502769492/
I don't think Amazon gives me the option to specify .es, it just says "amazon Europe". Sorry.
New article on the Singaporean stealth semi-sub (thanks Muttbutt!!!) http://www.hisutton.com/Special%20Operations%20Stealth%20Semi-Submarines%20demystified.html
I don't think Amazon gives me the option to specify .es, it just says "amazon Europe". Sorry.
New article on the Singaporean stealth semi-sub (thanks Muttbutt!!!) http://www.hisutton.com/Special%20Operations%20Stealth%20Semi-Submarines%20demystified.html
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Yes it's working fine. Before amazon.es it was possible to shop everywhere: amazon.us, amazon.uk, amazon.fr, amazon.de. Since amazon.es opened I can browse any amazon shop as I did in the past but orders are restricted to amazon.es alone
A personal favorite, the Project 865 Piranha with Sirena-UM SDVs. Drawn in MS Paint and rendered in GIMP.
uch higher resolution and key etc at http://www.hisutton.com/Piranha%20Special%20Forces%20submarine.html
There are rumors that Russia will restart the Piranha program. ;D
Known unbuilt versions are Piranha-T without lockout which allows greater internal space, Piranha-M (might be incorrect designation) with very different hull form, twin differs like a Lancaster bomber and steerable thrusters near the nose, and Piranha-2 which is just more modern.
uch higher resolution and key etc at http://www.hisutton.com/Piranha%20Special%20Forces%20submarine.html
There are rumors that Russia will restart the Piranha program. ;D
Known unbuilt versions are Piranha-T without lockout which allows greater internal space, Piranha-M (might be incorrect designation) with very different hull form, twin differs like a Lancaster bomber and steerable thrusters near the nose, and Piranha-2 which is just more modern.
added unbuilt Piranha designs:
Piranha-T:
U-130:
Piranha-2:
Piranha-M
Specs:
Piranha-T:
U-130:
Piranha-2:
Piranha-M
Specs:
Good article on Proteus SDV http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/is-this-semi-autonomous-mini-submarine-the-seals-next-s-1720675827
The headline and speculation is misleading (I was too harsh about that on another forum and now I feel bad) but the info is great. Fantastic boat.
The headline and speculation is misleading (I was too harsh about that on another forum and now I feel bad) but the info is great. Fantastic boat.
Got around to adding Rotinor DPV info to Covert Shores: http://www.hisutton.com/Rotinor%20BlackShadow%20and%20Divejet%20DPVs.html
USSOCOM / NSW program update http://www.hisutton.com/USSOCOM%20-%20Naval%20Special%20Warfare%20update.html
SWCS:
SDV Mk.VIII Mod-1 Gator Class SDV (top) vs SWCS
UOES-3 'Buton 5.60' Dry Combat Submersible
UOES-2 'S351' Dry Combat Submersible
DDS improvements
SWCS:
SDV Mk.VIII Mod-1 Gator Class SDV (top) vs SWCS
UOES-3 'Buton 5.60' Dry Combat Submersible
UOES-2 'S351' Dry Combat Submersible
DDS improvements
Cool video. I wonder re the pilots bring at the rear when traveling underwater, clearly they must be 100% dependent on sensors.
Also the seating arrangement minimizes crew interaction except by comms.
Also the seating arrangement minimizes crew interaction except by comms.
Gabler SDV
http://www.hisutton.com/21st%20Century%20Human%20Torpedo%20-%20Gabler%20SDV.html
Taedong-B submersible boat
http://www.hisutton.com/Demystified%20-%20Taedong-B%20submersible%20infiltration%20craft.html
(obviously the hydroplanes would be deployed....)
http://www.hisutton.com/21st%20Century%20Human%20Torpedo%20-%20Gabler%20SDV.html
Taedong-B submersible boat
http://www.hisutton.com/Demystified%20-%20Taedong-B%20submersible%20infiltration%20craft.html
(obviously the hydroplanes would be deployed....)
Article on <<NEW>> Iranian SDV: http://www.hisutton.com/Demystified%20-%20new%20low-profile%20Iranian%20SDV.html
Around this time of year it is usual for Iran to reveal a few more of its super weapons. Scared Defense Week occurs in late September and is accompanied by multiple military parades and static displays. Hidden amidst the dazzling array of missiles and UAVs, Swimmer Delivery Vehicles (SDVs) do not get very much press attention (journalists being widely ignorant of what they even are!???!!!). This year was no different. But on display was a slick 'new' SDV with a low profile hull without any canopy or viewing ports. Here's why it's not actually new, but why it is still interesting. .....
Around this time of year it is usual for Iran to reveal a few more of its super weapons. Scared Defense Week occurs in late September and is accompanied by multiple military parades and static displays. Hidden amidst the dazzling array of missiles and UAVs, Swimmer Delivery Vehicles (SDVs) do not get very much press attention (journalists being widely ignorant of what they even are!???!!!). This year was no different. But on display was a slick 'new' SDV with a low profile hull without any canopy or viewing ports. Here's why it's not actually new, but why it is still interesting. .....
Another obscure unbuilt project...
I came across a brief description of an interesting civilian wet-sub concept during a visit to the Historical Diving Society in UK (website). The craft was designed by Detroit Testing Laboratory in 1964 and had a two-man side-by-side configuration with a partially enclosed canopy. Information was limited but it said that it was designed to remain stationary at up to 300ft for up to 10 hours. That would be quite incredible, and together with the headlights (what's the point???) makes it somewhat questionable. But interesting all the same and something of a pre-cursor to the classic SDV Mk.9 designed a few years later. I don't think it was an influence on the Mk.9, but the likeness is clear.
The design was likely the work of engineer and company president James Douglas Dow (1900-90) who was better known for a quirky two-seat open-topped electric micro-car. The 'DTL' car had a top speed of 15mph and range of 30 miles, and operated with two 1/3hp electric motors supplied by 4 2v batteries. It is not inconceivable that the wet sub would have featured some of the same equipment.
http://www.hisutton.com/Classic%20Concept%20-%20underwater%20Cadillac.html
I came across a brief description of an interesting civilian wet-sub concept during a visit to the Historical Diving Society in UK (website). The craft was designed by Detroit Testing Laboratory in 1964 and had a two-man side-by-side configuration with a partially enclosed canopy. Information was limited but it said that it was designed to remain stationary at up to 300ft for up to 10 hours. That would be quite incredible, and together with the headlights (what's the point???) makes it somewhat questionable. But interesting all the same and something of a pre-cursor to the classic SDV Mk.9 designed a few years later. I don't think it was an influence on the Mk.9, but the likeness is clear.
The design was likely the work of engineer and company president James Douglas Dow (1900-90) who was better known for a quirky two-seat open-topped electric micro-car. The 'DTL' car had a top speed of 15mph and range of 30 miles, and operated with two 1/3hp electric motors supplied by 4 2v batteries. It is not inconceivable that the wet sub would have featured some of the same equipment.
http://www.hisutton.com/Classic%20Concept%20-%20underwater%20Cadillac.html
Ortega have released a video of their prototype. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox7Q7y1tQUY
My Q+A with them:
Q) The Ortega Mk.1 series is based on the WW2 Sleeping Beauty. What made you pick that specific type as a basis?
A) We really believe in the concept, sailing both on the surface and underwater. Next to that we upgraded the Sleeping Beauty with the latest technology.
Q) Does The Netherlands have any historic connection to the Sleeping Beauty? (I wasn't aware of one but I learn new things every day!)
A) As far as I know there is no historic link between the Netherlands and the original Sleeping Beauty.
Q) Was Ortega aware of or influenced by Italian submersible canoes from the Cold War? (e.g. TE one and two-man types)
A) We were aware of the Italian submersible canoes.
Q) The Sleeping Beauty was designed to travel most of its way to the target on the surface. Is that true of the Mk/1 and if so, what advantages does this entail?
A) We believe this is the biggest advantage of the design.
Q) Does the upright seating position limit underwater speed? - can the driver wear double hoses over the shoulder?
A) No it does not. The way we designed the boat the driver's position does not have any influence on the underwater speed.
Q) Do the hydroplanes fold-in for surface running in moderate seas?
A) Yes they do
Q)Are there plans for an enclosed version or other military considerations?
A)We always have plans for the future.
Q) What are the operational advantages of the Mk.1 over common DPVs?
A) The biggest advantages are the underwater speed and the travelling on the surface.
Q) I noticed that in the multi-person versions the cockpits are stepped. Why is that?
A) To give all passengers a clear view (in clear water)
Q) Are there plans for larger SDVs? Other designs?
A) We are always looking for new designs.
More images etc http://www.hisutton.com/News%20-%20Ortega%20Mk1%20SDV%20trials.html
My Q+A with them:
Q) The Ortega Mk.1 series is based on the WW2 Sleeping Beauty. What made you pick that specific type as a basis?
A) We really believe in the concept, sailing both on the surface and underwater. Next to that we upgraded the Sleeping Beauty with the latest technology.
Q) Does The Netherlands have any historic connection to the Sleeping Beauty? (I wasn't aware of one but I learn new things every day!)
A) As far as I know there is no historic link between the Netherlands and the original Sleeping Beauty.
Q) Was Ortega aware of or influenced by Italian submersible canoes from the Cold War? (e.g. TE one and two-man types)
A) We were aware of the Italian submersible canoes.
Q) The Sleeping Beauty was designed to travel most of its way to the target on the surface. Is that true of the Mk/1 and if so, what advantages does this entail?
A) We believe this is the biggest advantage of the design.
Q) Does the upright seating position limit underwater speed? - can the driver wear double hoses over the shoulder?
A) No it does not. The way we designed the boat the driver's position does not have any influence on the underwater speed.
Q) Do the hydroplanes fold-in for surface running in moderate seas?
A) Yes they do
Q)Are there plans for an enclosed version or other military considerations?
A)We always have plans for the future.
Q) What are the operational advantages of the Mk.1 over common DPVs?
A) The biggest advantages are the underwater speed and the travelling on the surface.
Q) I noticed that in the multi-person versions the cockpits are stepped. Why is that?
A) To give all passengers a clear view (in clear water)
Q) Are there plans for larger SDVs? Other designs?
A) We are always looking for new designs.
More images etc http://www.hisutton.com/News%20-%20Ortega%20Mk1%20SDV%20trials.html
Temistocle
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covert_shores said:
Italian submersible canoes??? During the Cold War !!! Never heard of them... Can you give other info?
Thanks
Ah, I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you. COMSUBIN (/GOI) are extremely secretive about their SDVs, even fifty years later. So this info is hard come by (i am greatly endeared to a certain person). After ww2 the Italians continued SDV development, generally about ten years ahead of everybody else in both technology and operational capabilities. By 1960 they had large multi-passenger SDVs etc. but those were too large to be air dropped (real capabilities at the time) so they looked again at one/two man SDVs. And curiously they seem to have been influenced by the British Sleeping Beauty design. The TE design was broadly similar but not a direct copy. It was around for a while but ultimately not a successful design in operational terms, not through any fault of its own.
I am reluctant to share much more publicly, partly for good reasons and partly for selfish reasons - Italian postwar designs are part of the 'previously unpublished' element of the Covert Shores book.
If I had access to the private section of this forum I would share more there.
I am reluctant to share much more publicly, partly for good reasons and partly for selfish reasons - Italian postwar designs are part of the 'previously unpublished' element of the Covert Shores book.
If I had access to the private section of this forum I would share more there.
Temistocle
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covert_shores said:
Maybe it is material for a second book?
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