Swap UK with France during the Falklands War.

[alejandrogrossi]

Hi.
In this alternative, for us (I´m from Argentina) is almost the same for the Air force and Naval Aviation, main aircraft force
A-4:
Fro wiki: "Argentina was the first foreign user of the Skyhawk and had nearly 130 A-4s delivered since 1965. The Argentine Air Force received 25 A-4Bs in 1966 and another 25 in 1970, all refurbished in the United States by Lockheed Service Co. prior to their delivery as A-4P, although they were still locally known as A-4B. They had three weapon pylons and served in the 5th Air Brigade (Spanish: V Brigada Aérea). In 1976, 25 A-4Cs were ordered to replace the F-86 Sabres still in service in the 4th Air Brigade (Spanish: IV Brigada Aérea). They were received as is and refurbished to flight status by Air Force technicians at Río Cuarto, Córdoba. The C model had five weapon pylons and could use AIM-9B Sidewinder air-to-air missiles"
"The Argentine Naval Aviation also bought the Skyhawk known as A-4Q in the form of 16 A-4Bs plus two for spare parts[citation needed], which unlike the Air Force's A-4Ps, were powered by 8,400 lbf (40 kN) J-65-W-20 engines and fitted to use Sidewinder air-to-air missiles. They were received in 1971 to be used mainly from the aircraft carrier ARA Veinticinco de Mayo by the 3rd Fighter/Attack Squadron (Spanish: 3ra Escuadrilla Aeronaval de Caza y Ataque)."

Mirage III
In July 1970 we sign the contract to buy 10 M-III single seat and 2 two seat. The frist plane was delivery on agost 1972. In may 1977, we sign another contract for buying 7 single seat more. The deliveries star beteween 1979 y 1980.

One thing: the frist bach came with 1 weapon pylon and 1 in the fuselage (3 total). the second batch: 2 wings pylon and 1 in fuselage (5 total).

IAI Nesher /Dagger
In the middle of 1978, the need arose to acquire aerial equipment of the Bomber Fighter type. At that time, the Humprey-Kennedy amendment prevented the acquisition of war material from the United States or Europe, for which other markets had to be chosen, including Israel.
Finally, it was agreed to purchase a total of 36 IAI Nesher fighter-bombers : 24 single-seaters and two two-seaters, which were renamed in Argentina under the name of Dagger ( dagger)
On August 28, 1979, the first batch of planes arrived in Tandil
The FAA decides to acquire an additional batch of 13 aircraft (11 single-seaters and 2 two-seaters).On September 22, 1980, the new contract was signed, and the first planes arrived in the country on May 29, 1981.

The U.S. placed an embargo of spare parts in 1977 due to the Dirty War ( is the name used by the military junta or civic-military dictatorship of Argentina for the period of state terrorism in Argentina from 1976 to 1983) backing the Humphrey-Kennedy amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act of 1976, the Carter administration placed an embargo on the sale of arms and spare parts to Argentina and on the training of its military personnel

So the only aircraft that can change is the M-III.
As the Sea Vixen FAW.2 was retired in 1972, maybe we can changes the Mirage
So the time of the war, no Mirage III, 19 Sea Vixen FAW.2 (if we don´t lose any by accidents)

 

[Archibald]

That post by @Zoo Tycoon is pretty interesting.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/falklands-and-carriers.11417/page-4#post-511543

In talks given by Falklands Shar pilots Ward and Morgan they both said what they feared was a sustained effort with BVRAAM’s as they couldn’t match it or do little more than try to avoid them. Even if the kill probability of the R530 was low, a sustained attack with lots of attempts could account for a significant percentage of the Shar force. On the way South they did a lot of reading up on the Marta R530 and during the first day of combat they saw vapour trails coming from distance Mirages;- They thought their worst fear had been realised. However post war research found these were probably vapour trails from punched off drop tanks and either no, or maybe only one or two R530 launched during the whole war.

If even Sharkey Ward feared R-530s... then aerial combat between Argentina Mirage IIIE and Aéronavale Crusaders on the early days of the war will be... interesting, to say the least.

The Aéronavale has one advantage: the Armée de l'Air Mirage IIIE are exactly similar and can train them
As done OTL for the British Task Force sailing off French Brittany: they were mock-attacked by AdA Mirages and Aéronavale S.E: to give them a taste of what was to happen.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

If even Sharkey Ward feared R-530s... then aerial combat between Argentina Mirage IIIE and Aéronavale Crusaders on the early days of the war will be... interesting, to say the least.

The Aéronavale has one advantage: the Armée de l'Air Mirage IIIE are exactly similar and can train them

Agree
The same weapons for all (the F-8E of the MN and our M-IIIEA use Magic 550 and R-530).
I think that the tactics could be similar, since the F-8E would not refuse to ascend to fight the M-III

 

[H_K]

12 Crouzes is not enough to protect the fleet. How many SHARs OTL ?

20 Sea Harriers OTL, later growing to 25 (20+8 - 3 losses) and 4-6 Harrier Gr1s. There were only 2 Sea Harriers left in the UK!

Lessons Of The Falklands War

Military Logistics Tactics Strategy Equipment

grandlogistics.blogspot.com

Remember that the Super Etendard was as good a fighter as the Sea Harrier, so 12 Crusader + 14 Super Etendard would have been equivalent to what the Royal Navy had, with longer legs.

And there was no shortage of attrition replacements available in storage.

 

[lordroel]

France had a colony in the Falklands in 1764, and referred the islands as Iles Malouines, from which the Spanish name Malvinas later derived from.
Eventually France left the islands due to pressure from Spain.

So in this scenario lets assume the following:
1. The islands remained French this whole time rather than British. This alternate colony is roughly the same size as what the British had there in reality at that time
2. Aside from that, the rest of history remained the same. Argentina split from Spain. WW1 and 2 happened
3. Rather than acquiring French aircraft such as Mirages and Super Entendards.. the Argentines bought British instead (also works with their carrier!). However the war still happens in 1982. Like how the French worked with the British, the British work with the French in this scenario.

so some questions are
1. What would the French response be? what would they send to reclaim the Falklands?
2. What kind of equipment would Argentina buy from the UK prior to the war before the UK stops in respect to France? Buccaneers instead of Super Entendards? Harriers? Lightning?
3. Would the outcome be different?

Sombody is trying to do that over at AH.com: The Malouines War: France in the Falklands Redux

 

[helmutkohl]

France had a colony in the Falklands in 1764, and referred the islands as Iles Malouines, from which the Spanish name Malvinas later derived from.
Eventually France left the islands due to pressure from Spain.

So in this scenario lets assume the following:
1. The islands remained French this whole time rather than British. This alternate colony is roughly the same size as what the British had there in reality at that time
2. Aside from that, the rest of history remained the same. Argentina split from Spain. WW1 and 2 happened
3. Rather than acquiring French aircraft such as Mirages and Super Entendards.. the Argentines bought British instead (also works with their carrier!). However the war still happens in 1982. Like how the French worked with the British, the British work with the French in this scenario.

so some questions are
1. What would the French response be? what would they send to reclaim the Falklands?
2. What kind of equipment would Argentina buy from the UK prior to the war before the UK stops in respect to France? Buccaneers instead of Super Entendards? Harriers? Lightning?
3. Would the outcome be different?

Sombody is trying to do that over at AH.com: The Malouines War: France in the Falklands Redux

oh my talk about coincidence!

 

[Archibald]

Indeed. If you wanna know, I'm not involved in that at all.
But I will still grab popcorn and enjoy the air and naval battles.

 

[Archibald]

Remember that the Super Etendard was as good a fighter as the Sea Harrier, so 12 Crusader + 14 Super Etendard would have been equivalent to what the Royal Navy had, with longer legs.

Alas, while I don't refute your logic, this wouldn't work for the Aéronavale. Proof: I remember a brief mention of "turning S.E into makeshift fighters as a stopgap after the Crusaders" during the "F-18 affair" (1989 - 1999) and it was seemingly dismissed as "ridiculous".

For them the S.E was attack attack and attack only. Despite the Etendard LWF legacy.
And also despite the fact that, between 1954 (PA.54 started) and 1962 ("Hey, we need supersonic interceptors") the Etendard IV was to be the one and only fast jet on the decks.

But Super Etendard was always considered "attack first, attack only". The Magic AAMs under the wings were for self-defense only.

I can tell you the Aéronavale would rather do like the British did with their SHARs: scavenge every single airframe on hand and send it southwards. And since there were 29 of them, or more exactly, 17 on top of 12 at 12F...

I have no idea what's the ferry range of a Crusader is, at least France has C-135FR tankers to ferry them, from Landivisau (French Brittany) to French Guiana and then to the Falklands.

A more reasonable option would be to send Foch first (mid-April) with the full blown air group, and some days later (early May ?) Clemenceau with a crapton of helicopters and... spares.

I know where to find these carrier OTL deployments along the years, I'll check what did they do in spring 1982.

 

[Hood]

Seems much more even to me:

Royal Navy
8 Sea Dart destroyers (1 T82, 7 T42)
4 Sea Wolf ASW frigates (3 T22, 1 Leander)

Marine Nationale
7 AAW destroyers (3 Masurca, 4 improved Tartar)
6 Crotale ASW frigates (3 F67, 3 F70)

Not counting the 2 Sea Slug cruisers and Sea Cat frigates as those are no better than the canon-armed French escorts. Including the 3rd F70 Montcalm as it was doing its “TLD” (long distance deployment) prior to commissioning and was in the mid-Atlantic with stops in Senegal + Caribbean.

Yes and no, the Kersaint-class largely had obsolete search radars, they were getting the DRBV-22 radar circa 1981-82 but I'm not sure how many ships would have had it by April/May 1982. Saying that Type 42/82 still had Type 965 so wasn't much better off...
How good was Mascura Mk 2 Mod 3?
It perhaps works out about equal.

But the French ships have a clear superiority in SSMs and ASW missiles (I think perhaps Bristol was the only Ikara ship?), although deploying fewer ASW helicopters they do have Alize to make up for that. Against the Argentine submarine threat they should do well.

 

[Archibald]

Netmarine is a great website.

Some stuff about the Tartar T-47s and damn it, one of them was decomissioned in January 1982.

Caractéristiques

France​

• 4 escorteurs d'escadre du type T 47 à la suite de leurs refontes en bâtiments anti-aériens :
  • Dupetit-Thouars (D625) en 1963
  • Du Chayla (D630) en 1964
  • Kersaint (D621) en 1965
  • Bouvet (D624) en 1965

Sur ces bâtiments, la consommation électrique de la rampe hydraulique Mk-13 nécessitait le démarrage d'un diesel alternateur additionnel.

De 1970 à 1975, leur système RIM-24 B initial a été progressivement converti au système RIM-24 C4, puis RIM-66.

So they had RIM-66, but don't ask me how good or bad was that one, in a Falklands scenario...

Some more stuff about these four Tartar ships.

LES ESCORTEURS D'ESCADRE (3) HISTORIQUE 1- T47B1 A T47B6

je viens de passé l'après midi à la bibliothèque du musée de la marine et je viens de tomber sur une liaisse de document concernant le naufrage du surcouf en 71

forummarine-forumactif-com.translate.goog

Main information: two of them were decommisionned early 1982 and their very Tartar weapon systems were salvaged, send back to Uncle Sam for a massive upgrade; this, for the future Cassard frigates that (presently, 40 years later) are ending their careers... with the same system, except modernized.

Bottom line: if the Falklands erupt in the spring 1982, this impact the future Cassards head-on.

- Their T-47 "donors" are rushed back in service
- The "Tartar transfer" is evidently pushed back by at least one year
Except...

Whatif the French fleet take a pounding and a beating from the Argies ? Notably the unfortunate T-47s used as pickets ? Not even mentionning the MASURCA ships...
And France find that ( just like OTL Type 42 and Sea Dart) their air defense ships are a little, say, "flawed" ?

I can't see France in this case
- build only TWO Cassards to replace FOUR T-47s
- with the same modernized-but-still-antiquated missile system

Clearly there will be more Cassards with better missiles. Which bring us the present day Cassard / Horizon-FREMM air defense misery...

Well folks, we have just lost one Tartar T-47: the Bouvet. It lost its system in January 1982.

The Kersaint did the same, except three years later in 1985.

La dernière rentrée des couleurs à lieu le 3 mars 1984, l'escorteur est condamné le 23 mai 1985 et devient le Q638. Son système Tartar est demonté et expedié aux Etats Unis pour être modernisé afin d'être installé sur la fregate antiaérienne JEAN BART.

No problem for the other two, they were not concerned by the "Cassard transfer".

T 47-class destroyer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Archibald]

Seems much more even to me:

Royal Navy
8 Sea Dart destroyers (1 T82, 7 T42)
4 Sea Wolf ASW frigates (3 T22, 1 Leander)

Marine Nationale
7 AAW destroyers (3 Masurca, 4 improved Tartar)
6 Crotale ASW frigates (3 F67, 3 F70)

Not counting the 2 Sea Slug cruisers and Sea Cat frigates as those are no better than the canon-armed French escorts. Including the 3rd F70 Montcalm as it was doing its “TLD” (long distance deployment) prior to commissioning and was in the mid-Atlantic with stops in Senegal + Caribbean.

Yes and no, the Kersaint-class largely had obsolete search radars, they were getting the DRBV-22 radar circa 1981-82 but I'm not sure how many ships would have had it by April/May 1982. Saying that Type 42/82 still had Type 965 so wasn't much better off...
How good was Mascura Mk 2 Mod 3?
It perhaps works out about equal.

But the French ships have a clear superiority in SSMs and ASW missiles (I think perhaps Bristol was the only Ikara ship?), although deploying fewer ASW helicopters they do have Alize to make up for that. Against the Argentine submarine threat they should do well.

Masurca - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As for air defense ships, it happened this way

The number of MASURCA ship-sets was repeatedly reduced in line with reductions in the French naval budget. The six complete systems that were initially ordered was very quickly reduced to five. Heavy and complex to introduce, MASURCA required a vessel with a minimum displacement of at least 5000 tons, requiring more expensive ships than France at the time was willing to fund.

The budget allocation for 1960-65, adopted on 6 December 1960, therefore allowed for no more than three units of the Suffren class. However the third ship was to be finally cancelled in order to free funds for the purchase of 42 F-8 Crusader fighters to serve aboard the new carriers Clemenceau and Foch.

The third ship-set was repurposed for the helicopter carrier Jeanne d'Arc - but was not available during her construction.
This (unlucky) MASURCA system finally was installed aboard the cruiser Colbert during her 1970-1972 refit.

This allowed the Marine Nationale to field a four ship squadron of RIM-24 Tartar equipped T-47 fleet escorts, in addition to three ships with, for their time, capable air defence systems, Suffren, Duquesne and Colbert.

And you can see there why the Crusaders were an anomaly back then. An anomaly that left a lot of resent and a lasting rift amid the French Navy. Including when the Crusaders had to be replaced in 1989... Hornets or Rafales ? The old wound reopened.

It boiled down to "42 Crusaders or 1*Masurca Suffren" ?

The legend says that it went to De Gaulle himself, who made a solomonic choice yet asked advice to the one and only French sailor he could trust:
His son Philippe, who incidentally has just turned 100 last month.

Philippe de Gaulle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In the end the French Navy got its cake and ate it, as the third MASURCA system found its way on the very last French cruiser, ever: the Colbert.

 

[Archibald]

Good news: Jeanne d'Arc helicopter carrier was available in spring 1982.

les 40 campagnes de la Jeanne d'Arc

 

[Archibald]

Hurrah ! I've found a Clemenceau OTL history, if only a bit short.

Hmmm not sure Clemenceau is really available for a war. It spent 1982 in short IPERs.
https://www-ffaa-net.translate.goog..._sch=http&_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr

1982

10 to 18 January: Helicopter exercise Agriates in Corsica, with twenty-five ALAT Puma helicopters and SA.321G Super-Frelon . February 1: Entry into IPER. June 28 to July 13: Sea trials after IPER. July 14: Participation alongside her sister ship the Foch in the naval review in Toulon in the presence of Mr. François Mitterrand, President of the Republic. Moreover, the Clemenceau welcomes the president on board. This naval review brings together around twenty ships, six submarines and naval aircraft. - Aircraft carrier maintained at PA2 strength (helicopter carrier). 15 to 19 November: Continuation of the IPER, then sea trials from 25 October. November 21 to December 6: Sortie of the aircraft carrier group in the Atlantic with the Foch (Operation Thiof). Air group of thirty five aircraft.​

Also this - an interesting resource.

Année 1982 - ARDHAN

Année 1982 Janvier Desormais, tous les établissements terrestres de l’Aéronautique navale reçoivent l’appellation de bases d’aéronautique navale ; c’est ainsi que les établissements de Cuers-Pierrefeu,…

aeronavale-org.translate.goog

 

[H_K]

this wouldn't work for the Aéronavale. Proof: I remember a brief mention of "turning S.E into makeshift fighters as a stopgap after the Crusaders" during the "F-18 affair" (1989 - 1999) and it was seemingly dismissed as "ridiculous".
But Super Etendard was always considered "attack first, attack only". The Magic AAMs under the wings were for self-defense only.

I don’t know where this info comes from but it’s untrue. The Super Etendards were always intended to fly medium altitude CAP below the Crusaders, flying in “I1” configuration (2x Magic AAMs + 2x 600L drop tanks).

There are pictures of this configuration flying operationally in the Persian Gulf in the 80s and it was still being used in training not that long ago… after the Rafale was in service!

So although the SuE couldn’t substitute for a high altitude supersonic interceptor like the Crusader, it can and did fly CAP against subsonic threats. This would have been even more the case in 1982 with many former F-8 pilots having converted to the SuE.

 

[Archibald]

Sure it wasn't for DACT or self defense only ? Plus in the Gulf, with the Iranians or Iraqis... you never know (USS Stark cough).

But I'm ready to believe it, if you say so...

And then, considering the fact that a S.E has performance matching a SHAR, then it is even more criminal, between 1989 and 1999 NOT to have retired the Crusaders !
Makes one think.
- Crusaders were given Magic 2, but S.E also had them
- S.E had no R-530 capability, but R-530 was unreliable and obsolete
(Super 530 was the real deal)
- radar-wise, the S.E Agave may have been optimized for strike rather than A2A
- but the Crusader radar, while A2A, was completely obsolete !
- as for airframes... advantage to the S.E, any time.

I think it must have been a matter of "supersonic + R-530" that led to the Crusaders being extended to 1999 - rather than passing air defense to the Super Etendards.
But I readily agree that was in retrospect a bizarre decision...!

And unlike the Hornets, this time Dassault can't be incriminated: the S.E was their baby, after all !

The mind wonders... so I wonder about a Super Etendard FA.2

If a goddam VSTOL SHAR could move from AIM-9L and Blue Fox, to AMRAAM and Blue Vixen; then a bare minimum would be a S.E with either
- Mirage F1's Cyrano IV & Super 530F
- Mirage 2000 RDI & Super 530D
I would say first rather than second option, as the F1 & S.E were very close.

 

[H_K]

Nope. Super Etendards flew CAP operationally in the Gulf against the Iranians - the Crusaders at high altitude to intercept any F-14s and the Super Etendards at medium altitude to intercept any strike aircraft attacking tankers.

Would have been interesting (to say the least) if the Iranians had tried something… probably best for the Aéronavale pilots that they didn’t.

 

[H_K]

The mind wonders... so I wonder about a Super Etendard FA.2

If a goddam VSTOL SHAR could move from AIM-9L and Blue Fox, to AMRAAM and Blue Vixen; then a bare minimum would be a S.E with either
- Mirage F1's Cyrano IV & Super 530F
- Mirage 2000 RDI & Super 530D
I would say first rather than second option, as the F1 & S.E were

Interesting thought. The Anemone radar had a detection range in air-to-air mode of 20nm (on fighter targets), which pilots found was better than the Crusader’s obsolete radar and the Agave (which had a detection range of 8nm « best case »…).

Some additional functionality would have been needed (track while scan, missile uplink), and it didn’t have look-down/Doppler capabilities so it was more like the RDM radar than RDI. But indeed why not?

Most likely configuration would have been:
- 2x Magic AAMs on outer pylons (or possibly 1x Magic + 1x Barracuda jammer)
- 1x Super 530F AAM + 1x600L drop tank on inner pylons (or 1,100L drop tank for more CAP endurance)
- 1x 600L drop tank on fuselage pylon

Edit: If you really want to be crazy, try 2x Super 530F under the fuselage pylon! But not sure about the aircraft integration issues…

 

[zen]

I'd have thought it would be early MICA?

 

[H_K]

I'd have thought it would be early MICA?

Indeed… even better! Would have been better than the last F-8P upgrade which tried to keep the tired Crusaders running to 1999, at great expense.

 

[Archibald]

MICA needs RDY or RBE-2... not undoable (Marocco Mirage F1s) but waaaaay too expensive for the Aeronavale... plus Dassault would blow a fuse as it would threaten... the Rafale M !
Nah Cyrano IV and Super 530F are good enough.

 

[Archibald]

I'd have thought it would be early MICA?

Indeed… even better! Would have been better than the last F-8P upgrade which tried to keep the tired Crusaders running to 1999, at great expense.

Well it suceeded: 17 airframes in life support without killing a pilot. A tribute to Cuers and Landivisau mechanics splendid skills and devotion for sure.
...
Just 67 hours of maintenance per 1 hour of flight !

 

[uk 75]

The Argentine Navy had two task groups. One based on De Mayo with A4s (perhaps SHars or AV8 in this timeline). The other based on Belgrano. Each would have had a Seadart equipped T42 (Trinidad and Hercules). Given UK support a couple of T42 might have been added plus T21 or Mk 10 frigates instead of the ex S African A69s. An ex RFA like Chile one of the Tide class.
Scorpion family including 90mm another possibility along with 105mm light gun and Rapier instead of Roland.
UK built Jaguar Mk50s perhaps like Ecuador and cancelled S50 Buccaneers from S Africa.
If Nott in UK you might add Invincible, Fearless and Intrepid to Argentine Navy but only if action takes place in 1983 (NATO saved F and I in our timeline before 1982)

 

[uk 75]

If you really want to beef up Argentina you could give them Hermes and Bulwark plus Harriers.
Oh and UK still has the Callaghan Government keen to support a left wing Argentine government and desperate for dollar sales of equipment. So not Galtieri but a Peronista government invades Les Malouines.
This means Washington is very much on Paris's side.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

The Argentine Navy had two task groups. One based on De Mayo with A4s (perhaps SHars or AV8 in this timeline). The other based on Belgrano. Each would have had a Seadart equipped T42 (Trinidad and Hercules). Given UK support a couple of T42 might have been added plus T21 or Mk 10 frigates instead of the ex S African A69s. An ex RFA like Chile one of the Tide class.
Scorpion family including 90mm another possibility along with 105mm light gun and Rapier instead of Roland.
UK built Jaguar Mk50s perhaps like Ecuador and cancelled S50 Buccaneers from S Africa.
If Nott in UK you might add Invincible, Fearless and Intrepid to Argentine Navy but only if action takes place in 1983 (NATO saved F and I in our timeline before 1982)

uk75
May 1ts 1982

• Task force 79.
  • TF 79.1.
    • ARA Veinticinco de Mayo (V-2).
    • ARA Santísima Trinidad (D-2).
    • Campo Durán.
  • TF 79.2
    • ARA Hércules (D-1).
    • ARA Comodoro Py (D-27).
    • ARA Seguí (D-25).
  • TF 79.3
    • ARA General Belgrano (C-4).
    • ARA Bouchard (D-26).
    • ARA Piedrabuena (D-29).
  • TF 79.4.
    • ARA Drummond (P-1).
    • ARA Guerrico (P-2).
    • ARA Granville (P-3).
    • ARA Punta Médanos (B-18).

Buccancer S50 cancelled with SAAF (wich was the date?)
Past 1976 we can not purchsea any aircraft for Europe and US - embargo- (see my post 41)
Maybe in 1972 we can buy the Sea Vixen FAW.2 at the time of her withdraw.
By that time maybe some Buccaner S1 (no the best option) in replace of the IAI DAgger

 

[uk 75]

The S Africans wanted more S50 Buccaneers but the Labour Government refused to supply them after 1964. Argentina would have been a logical customer.
Sea Vixens too big for De Mayo. Spain gets the AV8 Matador in the 70s. Sea Harriers for De Mayo would be obvious choice post 79.

 

[zen]

MICA needs RDY or RBE-2... not undoable (Marocco Mirage F1s) but waaaaay too expensive for the Aeronavale... plus Dassault would blow a fuse as it would threaten... the Rafale M !
Nah Cyrano IV and Super 530F are good enough.

Too expensive for MN in OTL, but in this Falklands scenario.........?

 

[alejandrogrossi]

The S Africans wanted more S50 Buccaneers but the Labour Government refused to supply them after 1964. Argentina would have been a logical customer.
Sea Vixens too big for De Mayo. Spain gets the AV8 Matador in the 70s. Sea Harriers for De Mayo would be obvious choice post 79.

The Sea vixen maybe in replace of the M-III of the air force
So S-50 in replace on the Dagger (maybe)
Septemeber 1969
On travel to Argentina, a GR.1 landes for testing, on 25 de mayo. Despite the tests, the proposal was discarded and we put on orden for the 16 A-4Q.
SUE were purchased in 1979.
Sea harrier FRS.1 in replace of the SUE

By 1982 something similar abord of "ARA 25 de Mayo"
Replace the Sea Hawk by A-4, and the Alize by S-2.
At the start of the war , the air group could have been: 8 A-4, 5 Sea Harrier, 4 S-2 and 3 Sea king.

 

[zen]

Opting into Harriers is likely a all or nothing move.
25 de Mayo would have been converted with Ski-ramp instead of catapults and arrestor gear. Resulting in less stress on the steam plant.
Rather like India opted for.
Though I think it's too early.

 

[Arjen]

In 1968, there were two boiler-room fires on board Karel Doorman. The carrier was destined for deletion from the fleet in two years anyway, the necessary repairs were so extensive they were not proceeded with before it was sold to Argentina. I have heard rumours the repairs were only partially successful, leading to 25 de Mayo being a bit of a dog.

 

[zen]

Quoting the outline of the scenario. Bolded text by me.

So in this scenario lets assume the following:
1. The islands remained French this whole time rather than British. This alternate colony is roughly the same size as what the British had there in reality at that time
2. Aside from that, the rest of history remained the same. Argentina split from Spain. WW1 and 2 happened
3. Rather than acquiring French aircraft such as Mirages and Super Entendards.. the Argentines bought British instead (also works with their carrier!). However the war still happens in 1982. Like how the French worked with the British, the British work with the French in this scenario.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

Quoting the outline of the scenario. Bolded text by me.

So in this scenario lets assume the following:
1. The islands remained French this whole time rather than British. This alternate colony is roughly the same size as what the British had there in reality at that time
2. Aside from that, the rest of history remained the same. Argentina split from Spain. WW1 and 2 happened
3. Rather than acquiring French aircraft such as Mirages and Super Entendards.. the Argentines bought British instead (also works with their carrier!). However the war still happens in 1982. Like how the French worked with the British, the British work with the French in this scenario.

zen
I replace the M-III (buy in 1970) by buying the Sea vixen FAW.2 at the time her withdraw
No SUE in 1979. I her replace Sea harrier FRS.1.
I keep the A-4 (recived 1966-71 air Force and Naval)
I chose to swap the Dagger for S50.
But looking that Canberra (12) was recived at the beginning of the 1970s, I chose swap her by the Buccaneer
And in 1978/79 buy the IAI Nesher/Dagger
Soy at the time of the war
Air Force: 12 S50 / 19 Sea Vixen FAW.2 /A-4
COAN: 8 A-4Q (historical) and 5 Sea Harrier ( same number us we have SUE at the time of the war)

 

[Hood]

Why would anyone buy second-hand Sea Vixens? Hardly an optimal choice for... anything...
Sadly 1970 is probably too late for an export Lightning F.53, but 1966-68ish might work out ok, not that Lightning could have much influence over the Falklands given its fuel thirst. Though it might lead perhaps to a 707 tanker conversion or maybe they get a couple of KC-135s from the US under MAP?

Buccs for Canberra I like, heck go to town and have both.
Had another Dr Evil thought... what if SA ordered the Nimrod and were in build when embargoed and they get sold to Argentina....

 

[Archibald]

I swear I've seen the Lightning on Argentina wish list when they bought their Mirage IIIEs in the early 70's, along with F-100s.

See attached file: screen shot of a (very useful) website "flying distance between places".

Seems the shortest distance was from the Super Etendard base: 576 km one way, so nearly 1200 km two ways.

Rio Gallegos is 1500 km or bust.

So, could a Lightning F6 with all the tanks (belly and overwing) and a pair of Red Tops, made such trip without his pilot swimming the return leg off ?

(mental note: the Chile - Argentina border at the southern tip of South America is pretty weird. In fact Argentina was rather lucky to have the very tip that curves upwards toward the Falklands !)

 

[Lascaris]

Indeed. If you wanna know, I'm not involved in that at all.
But I will still grab popcorn and enjoy the air and naval battles.

I haven't seen you show up, as of late and short of getting worried.

 

[lordroel]

Why would anyone buy second-hand Sea Vixens? Hardly an optimal choice for... anything...
Sadly 1970 is probably too late for an export Lightning F.53, but 1966-68ish might work out ok, not that Lightning could have much influence over the Falklands given its fuel thirst. Though it might lead perhaps to a 707 tanker conversion or maybe they get a couple of KC-135s from the US under MAP?

Buccs for Canberra I like, heck go to town and have both.
Had another Dr Evil thought... what if SA ordered the Nimrod and were in build when embargoed and they get sold to Argentina....

Could a Nimrod cover the area where the ARA General Belgranowas oparating in OTL when it was sunk.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

I swear I've seen the Lightning on Argentina wish list when they bought their Mirage IIIEs in the early 70's, along with F-100s.

See attached file: screen shot of a (very useful) website "flying distance between places".

Seems the shortest distance was from the Super Etendard base: 576 km one way, so nearly 1200 km two ways.

Rio Gallegos is 1500 km or bust.

So, could a Lightning F6 with all the tanks (belly and overwing) and a pair of Red Tops, made such trip without his pilot swimming the return leg off ?

(mental note: the Chile - Argentina border at the southern tip of South America is pretty weird. In fact Argentina was rather lucky to have the very tip that curves upwards toward the Falklands !)

Yes
The other candidates was the Lightning and the F-100
I think thta the F6 could not made the all trip

 

[alejandrogrossi]

Why would anyone buy second-hand Sea Vixens? Hardly an optimal choice for... anything...
Sadly 1970 is probably too late for an export Lightning F.53, but 1966-68ish might work out ok, not that Lightning could have much influence over the Falklands given its fuel thirst. Though it might lead perhaps to a 707 tanker conversion or maybe they get a couple of KC-135s from the US under MAP?

Buccs for Canberra I like, heck go to town and have both.
Had another Dr Evil thought... what if SA ordered the Nimrod and were in build when embargoed and they get sold to Argentina....

Could a Nimrod cover the area where the ARA General Belgranowas oparating in OTL when it was sunk.

We have 2 SP-2H
The did the the searching for suvivers of the ARA Gral. Belgrano and guide the SUE on the attack of the HMS Sheffield
The were withdraw ( her radar was too old and we had not spares)
here is a PDF (is in spanish)
The mos importat is thta you can saw 2 map (1 search for suvivers and the guide to the attack of the HMS Shiffield
https://www.centronaval.org.ar/boletin/BCN829/829PEREZ ROCA.pdf
I´m pretty sure the Nimrod, could cover that area too.
I read that we are looking a replacement for her before the war - i cant find nothing right now-. Possible Atlantic or P-3 Orion.
Another change (4 new Nimrod for the COAN in 1980)

 

[alejandrogrossi]

Why would anyone buy second-hand Sea Vixens? Hardly an optimal choice for... anything...
Sadly 1970 is probably too late for an export Lightning F.53, but 1966-68ish might work out ok, not that Lightning could have much influence over the Falklands given its fuel thirst. Though it might lead perhaps to a 707 tanker conversion or maybe they get a couple of KC-135s from the US under MAP?

Buccs for Canberra I like, heck go to town and have both.
Had another Dr Evil thought... what if SA ordered the Nimrod and were in build when embargoed and they get sold to Argentina....

Hood
The Argentine Air Force received 10 B.62 bombers and two T.64 trainers at the beginning of the 1970s, replacing the Avro Lincoln in the bomber role, so the aircraft have and strategic role (for us) i known that is a medium bomber.
But I chose the Buccaneer (i love that plane), because you can still have and strategic role (for our standars), and you have a better tactical role (specialy attacking ship)
The chose of the Sea vixen (i konw that was not a optimal choice, but you have IFR, what means a better range than M-III, and more missile ( 4 red Top vs 2 magic -M-III 2nd bach o 1 R-530 1st bach). And i think that even have a better rage thant the F6 ( a opition at the moment of choseing the M-III)

 

[Archibald]

Funnily enough, France too had Neptunes before its Atlantique and Atlantique 2.
In fact the last of them were still in service by 1982 !

 

[Archibald]

Indeed. If you wanna know, I'm not involved in that at all.
But I will still grab popcorn and enjoy the air and naval battles.

I haven't seen you show up, as of late and short of getting worried.

You evidently no clue about my very, very troubled relationship with AH.com and its moronic moderator team since, what, 2017 ? That bunch of idiots banned me, and since then, from time to time I play cat and mice with them.
It's been a while since my last try - and that thread has been a motivation to try again.
(evil, maniacal laugh)