Supermarine Type 313 questions

[Flitzer]

Thanks HITG.
Re: the cockpit transparent shadow.
It's not difficult to do. I just use the base layer from the side view and rotate, position and crop then fill between 30 and 40% black on a master light and shade layer. Then do the same for the glass but fill 15 or 20%.

A fair way to go yet but it seems to be shaping up.
Once this is completed, it's quite easy to do further versions, i.e. a later grey/grey/green camo or a PR pink one (with invasion stripes of course) because most of the hard work re: detailing and light and shade is simply transfered.

Many thanks again.
Peter

 

[Flitzer]

Hi all
A bit more work on the side view tonight.

Cockpit: I will add rails similar to Justo's Spit K5054 pic above, but would it have the drop down door too?

Cheers
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

Please see cockpit details of the Supermarine F.18/37
from Profile Volume 1 Nº 7

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Justo.
Will do.

Cheers
Peter

 

[Flitzer]

Hi all.
A bit more progress.
Getting close I think. A few more bits and bobs.

Then I can do a Pink one.

Comments most welcome, they are a great help.

Many thanks
Peter

 

[robunos]

nit-pick time again, but i don't see any carburettor air intakes. are they to be added later?

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Here some paint schemes

 

[Flitzer]

Hi Justo,
again great refs.
There are quite a few things to add. e.g. Top view mast shadow, antena cable, and landing lights plus the carb intakes.
Lots of stuff to add yet on the front view...etc.

But now you mention it, ;D where would you site the carb intakes and what shape/type? An engine top scoop similar to the Beaufighter or side mounted ones similar to the Whirlie?
Also would a rear view mirror on top of the canopy first frame be advisable?
And would the gun barrels protrude as on the Whirlie?

Many thanks
Peter

 

[robunos]

regarding the carby inlets, it depends on which engines you,ve used. the RR peregrine had downdraft carburettors. so the inlet should be on top of the cowling, although in the whirlwind, the inlets were in the radiator ducts, to reduce drag. from the information i have, the hispano-suiza had a supercharger, so either a ventral (spitfire)or lateral (Bf109 style) intake would be appropriate. if you've gone for a merlin powered development, then the spitfire type is the way to go. also look at Justo's picture of the 'tin mossie'.

as far as the guns go, see BSP3, page 35,
'a battery of four 20mm cannons was grouped and completely enclosed in the nose...and the front section of the fuselage was hinged to allow the guns to be removed'

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Robin.

If the engines are the Peregrines I think I may need to lower the exhausts, more like the Whirlie.
Of course this now brings in to question again, the flush exhausts? If the exhausts are lower then more conventional pipes would clear the wing and exhaust beneath it?

Another retturn to the drawing board or should I just do a lateral intake? There's room for it on the drawing.

Decisions, decisions.... : ;D

Cheers
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

carb intakes samples

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Justo.

Tonight's progress report.

Many thanks again
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

Starboard underside wing white,port underside wing black

 

[robunos]

STOP PRESS!! from putnam's Gloster, pp.234-5

these images of peregrine powered Gloster F9/37 showing merlin type exhausts and cowling top air intakes.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Justo and Robin.

Justo.
I will correct the side codes/roundel size and add the band plus the white starboard/black port underside wing.
So underside of the fuselage and tailplanes would be white also?

Robin.
I'll do a version with the suggestions as per Reaper.
This version would, I think, be the better one for the PR version with invasion stripes(?).

Again many thanks for all the time and effort in helping me.
Hope these progressive profile illustratings are of interest.

Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

Some samples here

 

[Flitzer]

Tonights progress report.

Did this before Justo's gratefully received underside pics.
So a little more tweaking to do.

Still not sure re; Engine, exhaust and intakes?
I feel I should go with the way it is for this version and do the version as Robin suggests for the PR pink one.
Confirmation please?

Many many thanks.

 

[robunos]

feel I should go with the way it is for this version and do the version as Robin suggests for the PR pink one

sounds good to me!

cheers,
Robin.

 

[PMN1]

i would have thought that the merlin was too big, initially, though maybe in later marks, for reasons of growth, and/or commonality of production.

The 313 was larger than the later Merlin powered 324/325 series.......

I've often wondered about the light bomber possibility - a suitable replacement for the Blenheim....in Merlin and Taurus versions.

 

[robunos]

The 313 was larger than the later Merlin powered 324/325 series.......

i wasn't aware of that, although, of course, as the war progressed, installed engine power increased, mainly, i believe, in response to increased weight, rather than size.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[PMN1]

The 313 was larger than the later Merlin powered 324/325 series.......

i wasn't aware of that, although, of course, as the war progressed, installed engine power increased, mainly, i believe, in response to increased weight, rather than size.

cheers,
Robin.

Interesting isn't it, according to BSP the Type 313 had a wingspan of 48ft, a wing area of 325 sq feet and a length of 37ft while the Types 324/325 had a wingspan of 41ft, a wing area of 290-306 sq feet and a length of 31 -32ft.

It does however, make me question the performance figures on Goshawks...390mph??

As for production capacity, well the Rootes Shadow factory was building Blenheims until 1943 for want of something better.

 

[robunos]

the goshawk was supposed to be the 'super engine' of the immediate pre-war period. by removing the weight and drag of the radiators, and because it used less volume,
and therefore less weight, of water coolant, an aircraft powered by the goshawk was assumed to have a higher performance than a similar aircraft powered by a conventional liquid cooled engine. at least that's my understanding.

As for production capacity, well the Rootes Shadow factory was building Blenheims until 1943 for want of something better.

again, something else i wasn't aware of. :'( my reasoning went as follows:- RR kills the goshawk, because it dosen't work, so the type 313 gets the peregrine.
RR then kills the peregrine in order to concentrate on the merlin. now a merlin powered 313 may or may not be built, but anyway, someone, from the RAF, or supermarine,
or the Air Ministry, (or even Mr. Churchill) says 'we can do the same job as the 313 with a 4 cannon spitfire, which only uses one merlin instead of two, and whichare in high enough demand as it is.' therefore the 313 is terminated, in favour of said 4 cannon spitfire.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Flitzer]

Hi all.

Another progress report.

For the PR Pink I'll probably do a completely new file, rather than try and modify (progress directly using the original profile attached).
Although the differences are small they are proving difficult to blend, so a new file and carry over relevant layers to add to new ones is going to prove the best bet I think.
Still need to delete the gun ports/detail, modify the engines especially on the top view etc. New side engine in place.

Cheers
Peter

 

[hole in the ground]

It looks great
but (sorry)

With the top view the engine nacels appear to be floating over the wing, the shadow appears a bit detached from the rear end of the nacell...

 

[Flitzer]

Hi Robin.
It's one of the things I need to fix.

Many thanks
Peter

 

[Flitzer]

Hi all.
A little more progress. Managed, so far to use and modify the original drawing rather than start from scratch.
Elongated the engine housings a little to accommodate the exhausts.
Still need to fix the floating shadow effect properly. You were spot on Robin.
Added camera ports.

Many thanks
Peter

 

[robunos]

glad to be of sevice, ;D, excellent so far....

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Invasion stripes , my opinion ...

 

[Justo Miranda]

Invasion stripes , my opinion (2)

 

[Flitzer]

Many thanks Justo and Robin and everyone.

I'll definitely do the stripes as you suggest and illustrate with your refs Justo and I'll post when done.

I'm close to completing this set, got to frame them up to finish.
Next set back to the Luftwaffe I think.

Many many thanks for all your massive help with these British profiles. Very much appreciated.
I hope others thought it interesting to see the step by step build ups.

Best regards
Peter

 

[PMN1]

The later Gloster Reaper heavy Fighter had the second crewman replaced by the ammunition for 8 0.303" MG in an underfuselage tray in addition to the usual 4 x 20mm cannon.

Presumably the same could be done with the space that was available for the four 500lb bombs on the Type 313?

 

[Flitzer]

Still more to do but another progress report.
Couldn't resist a blue one also thanks to Justo's inspiring refs.
Fuselage side roundel needs moving forward and underwing side views need invasion stripes adding plus the PR blue needs 'E' replacing and under wing colour change. etc

Many thanks
Peter

 

[Flitzer]

Hi all.
I think I have almost finished the blue one, unless someone knows differently of course .

A few little adjustments then the Pink one to finish.

Many thanks.
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

Blue beauty !

 

[robunos]

so real i can hear the engines! ;D

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Dominik]

O moj Boze...Oh my God. Beauty...that's all I can say.
We want more...British What ifs...

Cheers.

 

[Flitzer]

Hi again,

And the latest Pink PR.

It's time to frame them up I think.

Many thanks
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

voilá !

 

[deejay]

In British Secret Projects Fighters and Bombers 1935-50 there is a reference to Aero Engines Limited (Hispano) in relation to the Supermarine 313. I have never heard of this company before and I cannot find any other reference to it. Can anyone throw any light on this reference?

 

[Apophenia]

In British Secret Projects Fighters and Bombers 1935-50 there is a reference to Aero Engines Limited (Hispano) in relation to the Supermarine 313. I have never heard of this company before and I cannot find any other reference to it. Can anyone throw any light on this reference?

That BSP reference is to the proposed license-building in Britain of the French Hispano-Suiza 12Y. Aero Engines Ltd. held the British HS 12Y rights - by way of taking over engine rights and designs from General Aircraft Ltd. [1] That take-over happened on 17 June 1935 ... with General Aircraft having bought rights to the Hispan-Suiza aircraft engine range sometime earlier in 1935.

Aero Engines Ltd. was incorporated on 07 June 1935 and, along with General Aircraft, the firm took over the works of a failing Douglas Motors of Kingswood, Glos., (ie: the factory formerly making Douglas motorcycles). I presume that Aero Engines Ltd. intended to make its anglicised HS 12Ys at this Kingswood plant. Alas, the Air Ministry showed no interest in a British-built HS 12Y.

Aero Engines Ltd. hung on as a business until 1946 ... but I have no idea what they were doing during the war.

___________________________________________

[1] This included General Aircraft's proposed Monarch light aircraft engines. The Monarch range was to include a 90 hp V4 and a 150 hp IV6 version (intended for the General Aircraft Monospar ST-12).

-- https://www.douglashistory.co.uk/hi...ily and the Kingswood motor cycle factory.pdf