Supermarine Type 313 questions

[Flitzer]

Hi all
I am now starting a profile or two for the Type 313, and ask would construction methods and materials be similar to the Spitfire?
Please see PR Spit example attached.

Many thanks
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

Please see 324-327 structure in http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4891.0/highlight,supermarine+324.html

 

[Flitzer]

New venture.
Tonight's progress.

Comments most welcomel as per usual.

Many thanks
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

My opinion

 

[Justo Miranda]

Here some additional stuff

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Justo.
Lovely stuff.
I really do appreciate your time and efforts. As illustrated by the MB Twin Boom, your input has been a major factor in my making the profiles so much better.

Questions please.

If Goshawks, where would the exhausts be placed?
On the engine fairings sides I know, but they would need to be low enough to clear the wing's leading edge, so the gases would escape and flow under the wing along the fairing side?

Also if the 313 would have made a PR version, and nose armament deleted, might the camera be housed there instead or would it more likely be placed on the fuselage side more like the Spit?

Again many thanks.
Peter

 

[hole in the ground]

I think that with the wieght of the guns so far forward deleting them would require balast replacement, it may as well be a camera...

With the spitfire, consider that the guns are in the wings, asuming that the camera wants to be positioned as close to where the mass of guns was as possible:
Camera could not go under fuselage because it would encroach on landing gear systems, possibly the cockpit.
I would imagine that the rear fuselage was the only place for it to go and its side placement probably more to do with the shape size of camera and narrow fuse. than anything else.

My money would be on a nose mounted (possibly altered shape to fit) camera or two pointing downwards (because the alternative directions dont bear thinking about )

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks HITG.
I was hoping someone would opt for replacing the cannon with the photo gear.

Anyway...tonight's progress of the non-PR version.

Cheers
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

My opinion

 

[Flitzer]

Thank you Justo.

Just what I needed.
Also found 3 view of type 224.

More soon.

Many thanks again
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

Type 224 here

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Justo
So I need to add blisters to the fairing tops too.
Rather similar to the Spit.

What is the inverted 'L' shaped pipe/tube affair?
And should that also be added?

Cheers
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

Mechanic of fluids (thirties fashion)

 

[Flitzer]

Hi again
Please take a look at the side view progress pic.

I have roughly placed two arrows for possible exhaust routes.
Red arrow exhaust over top of wing.
Yellow arrow curl down similar to Justo's pics above.

Opinion please.
Please note 'Codes' for position only. Not final ones.

Many thanks.
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

Two ways only ...

 

[Justo Miranda]

Back to the drawing board ...

 

[hole in the ground]

my money would be on the under wing exhaust. But i do like the look of the exhaust on the 224. Collects into a single duct and exhausts under the fuse. Doubt they would do that for the 313 if there are landing gear in the nacelles though.

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks to both.
I quite like the exhaust through the fairing and exit atop the wing as it looks a much more areo-cleaner solution.
So I'll do as Justo says, go back to the drawing board.

I'm sure there will be more questions and input sought as this progresses ;D

Many thanks again.
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

Sorry my mistake please see new position of the radiators and fuel tanks

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Justo.
Just in time .

Luckily it will only affect the front view which I have yet to do.

I'm going to go for the through the fairing/upper wing exit for the exhausts.

Cheers
Peter
;D

 

[Justo Miranda]

Sorry my mistake ,please see new position of the leading edge and fuel tank

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Justo.
I'll get to it hopefully over the weekend if I can dodge putting up the wife's shelves.

Cheers
Peter

 

[Flitzer]

Tonights quickie.

Port wing nearly done.

Cheers
Peter

 

[robunos]

I'm going to go for the through the fairing/upper wing exit for the exhausts.

DONT!! when westland tried it with the prototype whirlwind, the exhaust pipe broke, and the hot gas burnt through the aileron push rod.
the pilot, harald penrose, managed to land safely, but it was enough for westland to abandon the system.
for more details, see putnam's Westland, page 264.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Overheating?

 

[Flitzer]

Idea....
I may be talking out of my own exhausts , but would extending the engine fairings a little provide the room for a more conventional exhaust system without upsetting the balance too much?
I'm no expert, I just draw the things, but thought it worth putting up for discussion. :

Comments please.

Cheers
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

OK

 

[robunos]

Overheating?

probably a combination of overheating and engine vibration.

Sorry my mistake please see new position of the radiators and fuel tanks

remember, the goshawk engine was _steam_ cooled, so it didn't have radiators. instead, condensers were built flush into the wing leading edges.

regarding the exhausts, how about 'ram's horns', as shown in the attached pictures?

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Justo and Robunus.

hmmm...seems answers lead to more questions .

I was wondering, as the design was dated as 1936, wouldn't steam be a little outdated and maybe a different motor would sooner than later have been used instead of the Goshawk if the 313 had gone in to production?
I'm thinking out loud really, but as nice as the ram's horns look on the older-fashioned looking aircraft, I wonder if a more suitable alternative would have been found?
The Type 313 was deigned to be as clean and aero-dynamic as possible, so would the kind of exhaust systems suggested be in keeping with this aim?
So therefore would the Hispano have been a better bet?
Or even Merlins if there had been enough to spare?

Not sure which to pursue now?
Help please oh sage and wise.

Different point: If the 313 would have gone in to production and proved a good aircraft, could an eventual development have seen a cut down fuselage and a bubble canopy, similar to the Whrilwind?

Many thanks.
Peter
???

 

[hole in the ground]

How about flush exhausts then? Ala K5054?

 

[Justo Miranda]

Flush exhausts K5054 style and tear drop canopy (too advanced for me!)

 

[robunos]

yesw, you're right, the goshawk was abandoned in 1935, so no steam.
as alternatives, i would have thought the peregrine, after all, it was used in the whirlwind, which was to the same specification,
i would have thought that the merlin was too big, initially, though maybe in later marks, for reasons of growth, and/or commonality of production.
also agree about the flush exhausts, or again, if peregrines were used, the same type of exhausts as on the whirlwind.
i'm not sure about the bubble canopy/cut down rear fuselage. my guess is by the mid-years of the war, the 313 would have been phased out
of production in favour of spitfires.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Flitzer]

Many thanks once agian to all.
I will go with the flush exhausts.

And again Justo great help. The cut down looks great but maybe robunos is right, it may have been phased out before the need todo a bubble canopy/cut down fuselage. But a pretty thing it is.

Many thanks
Peter

 

[Flitzer]

Hi again.
Latest...
flush exhausts in progress top and side views.

Cheers
Peter

 

[robunos]

lookn' good... ;D

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Realistic

 

[hole in the ground]

Is it me or do the spinners look bigger in the top view than the side? ???

 

[Flitzer]

Is it me or do the spinners look bigger in the top view than the side? ???

Probably. !
I sort of thought the same this morning when I checked.
I'll fix it when I get back on it.

Many thanks.
Peter

 

[Flitzer]

Tonight's in-progress update.

HITG you were right.
Spinners adjusted.

Comments as usual most welcome.

Many thanks.
Peter

 

[hole in the ground]

Looks pretty spiffy to me.
I love the work you have done on the cockpit, and the cockpit transparent shadow. Lots of little details look good