Supermarine Scimitar and Related Projects

[hesham]

Any more unbuilt Scimitar variants?

Generally,and from Putnam book.

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Type 508.
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/alterna...-1950h-godov-chast-4-5e070bbdbd639600ad643bc2
And...

Уголок неба ¦ Supermarine 525

 

[blackkite]

Hi!　Supermarine type 556.
http://alternathistory.com/korabeln...a-korolevskogo-flota-v-1945-57-godah-chast-5/

"Supermarine Type 556
Developed in March 1954, the Supermarine Type 556 two-seater all-weather fighter was one of the developments in a series of projects for the second generation of Scimitar carrier-based fighters. The new aircraft, which was Supermarine's response to the Ministry's new February 17th specification, was to be either a pure missile fighter or a cannon-missile fighter. In the first case, it had to carry two Red Dean air-to-air missiles or four Blue Jays. In the second case, its armament was to consist of four cannons or a combination of Blue Jay missiles and cannons.

The thick nose of the fuselage made it possible to place the crew members side by side and to install the AI.18 radar with a large antenna diameter on board the aircraft. A wider cockpit made it possible to rotate the engines relative to the central axis of the aircraft and place some of the equipment between the compressors and engine air intakes.

Supermarine considered the Type 556 to meet the NR / A.38 specification in terms of speed, rate of climb and ceiling. In September 1954, as part of work on the NR / A.38 specification, one Type 556 prototype was ordered, but in April of the following year, after the manufacture of the layout, the work was suspended, and in July it was decided to abandon the Supermarine machine in favor of the carrier fighter-interceptor de Havilland DH.110 Sea Vixen.

FLIGHT TECHNICAL CHARACTERISTICS
Type: Supermarine Type 556
Purpose: carrier-based all-weather fighter
Status: project
Crew: 2 people.
Powerplant: two turbojet engines Avon RA.24
Dimensions:
wingspan 37.17 ft (11.3 m)
length 58.5 ft (17.8 m)
wing area 478 sq. ft (44.5 m²)
Weight:
maximum take-off (in the version of a long-range fighter with two guns, two PTBs and two Blue Jay missiles) 41 852 lbs (18 984 kg)
Flight characteristics:
maximum speed (afterburner)
• at sea level 766 mph (1,232 km / h)
• at an altitude of 40,000 feet (12,192 m) 690 mph (1110 km / h)
rate of climb at sea level 43,600 fpm (221.5 m / s)
service ceiling 52,150 ft (15,895 m)"

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ed-multi-role-plane-for-the-rn-in-1960.17529/

Excellent three side view drawing.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/su-ma_type-556-gif.174543/

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Type 525.
Source : rcgroups.com

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Type 529.
https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/operator/Vickers Supermarine
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/xplane/supermarine525.html

 

[Zeppelin]

Was there a reason why Supermarine dropped the swallow tail configuration tested on the Type 508 for later production craft?

 

[Justo Miranda]

in April 1953 the prototype VX 136 (Type 529) was damaged in a forced landing during tail-down landing trials at RAE Bedford and it was damaged again on December 19, 1953 during an emergency landing.

 

[royabulgaf]

Just off the top of my head, there have been a lot of v tail prototypes, but I can't think of any in production except the Beech single engine planes. I'm sure others made it into production, but there must be some reason the idea never caught on.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Just off the top of my head, there have been a lot of v tail prototypes, but I can't think of any in production except the Beech single engine planes. I'm sure others made it into production, but there must be some reason the idea never caught on.

Fouga magister

 

[royabulgaf]

Just off the top of my head, there have been a lot of v tail prototypes, but I can't think of any in production except the Beech single engine planes. I'm sure others made it into production, but there must be some reason the idea never caught on.

Fouga magister

D'oh!

 

[Zeppelin]

Never build, but how about the Saunders-Roe P.192 Queen ?

 

[zebedee]

*cough* F117 *cough*

 

[Foo Fighter]

Careful mate, someone will send you a test kit......

 

[Hood]

Just off the top of my head, there have been a lot of v tail prototypes, but I can't think of any in production except the Beech single engine planes. I'm sure others made it into production, but there must be some reason the idea never caught on.

There are a few disadvantages:
Excessive yawing unless you have a longer rear fuselage (something the Magister lacked and suffered from)
Higher induced drag in some situations
A more complicated control system and higher control forces for the pilot
Poor stability if not given enough area
If you lose one tail in combat you are in big trouble...

 

[Deleted member 2278]

Just off the top of my head, there have been a lot of v tail prototypes, but I can't think of any in production except the Beech single engine planes. I'm sure others made it into production, but there must be some reason the idea never caught on.

There are a few disadvantages:
Excessive yawing unless you have a longer rear fuselage (something the Magister lacked and suffered from)
Higher induced drag in some situations
A more complicated control system and higher control forces for the pilot
Poor stability if not given enough area
If you lose one tail in combat you are in big trouble...

These last two are hardly exclusive to V-Tails and are just as true of single-tailed aircraft as well. The last one extremely so!

 

[robunos]

An illustration, or a picture of a model, of the Type 525 with V-Tail.




Source:- 'Warpaint' #85, page 7.


cheers,
Robin

 

[archipeppe]

Model 35 Bonanza....



And please do not forget the YF-23...

 

[riggerrob]

V-tailed Beechcraft Bonanzas acquired a reputation as "V-Tailed doctor-killers" but a detailed examination of accident reports revealed that Bonanzas were slightly safer than similar complex (retractable landing gear, constant-speed propellers and maybe turbo-charged) airplanes like Mooneys and Navions. Most accidents were attributed to wealthy, arrogant, VFR private pilots getting disoriented in clouds. Early V-tailed Bonanazas also had a narrow center-of-gravity range.
Beechcraft developed a kit to reinforce V-tails and in 2012, the Australian CAA issued a directive to replace tail control cables ... some of which were 64 years old by then. The CAA tried to limit control cable service life to 15 years.

Beechcraft made V-tailed Model 35 Bonanzas from 1947 to 1982. Originally they only had 4 seats.
Conventional-tailed Model 33 Debonairs or Bonanzas were made from 1960 to 1995. Debonairs have completely new and larger vertical tail surfaces. Many Debonairs have 6 seats.
Conventional-tailed Model 36 Bonanzas (a stretched Model 33) were built from 1968 to present. The stretched fuselage helped with pitch stability along with weight-and-balance.
The T-34 Mentor military trainer version uses 3 of the original tail surfaces to make a conventional tail with some added strakes to improve spin recovery.

 

[hesham]

From Air Enthusiast 59,

the Supermarine Model-565.

 

[Nik]

Would area-ruling's 'Waisting' have claimed too much internal volume ??

 

[hesham]

From Aeroplane magazine 1957.

 

[hesham]

From Aeroplane magazine 1957.

The same source.

 

[hesham]

What was the Specification E7/54,which Supermarine involved in it,and if any others tenders ?.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Would area-ruling's 'Waisting' have claimed too much internal volume ??

It's more the centrifugal-flow jet engine that prevents it, look at how fat the engine is in GTX's picture below:

Vickers Supermarine Type 508 mock-up Hursley Park December 1948:

That fat combustion can section really kills any chance of area ruling the plane...

 

[Arjen]

It's more the centrifugal-flow jet engine that prevents it

The Types 505 (without undercarriage) and 508 (with undercarriage) had Rolls-Royce AJ.65 axial-flow turbojets - later developed as the R-R Avon. Development of the Types 505-508 led to the swept-wing Type 525 and eventually the Avon-powered Scimitar.
The Avon-powered EE Lightning and SAAB Draken were supersonic.
Avons were produced until quite recently by Siemens as industrial gas generators - 20,000 - 21,000 shp.

 

[Schneiderman]

More project info in here

 

[Arjen]

... which you should go out and buy a copy of immediately, if you don't already have one.

 

[hesham]

More project info in here

My dear Schneiderman,my question about the specification E7/54 in your book,if it was contained a competitors
or not ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

My dear Schneiderman,my question about the specification E7/54 in your book,if it was contained a competitors
or not ?.

No I don't think so. It was most likely just a book keeping process to transfer the project from one budget (service fighter) to another (research).

 

[zen]

Type 562: Designed for the interceptor and strike role, capable of carrying Sparrow II AAMs, along with bombs (including Nuclear ordanance) and Blue Jays. Two wing designs were proposed; one with a small aspect ratio and a large area, the other being one with reduced sweep and area.

Ok reading up what I've got I note this considered the use of Gyron? PS.38....
Is that correct and how fid they squeeze DH's beast into the fusilage?

 

[red admiral]

Type 564 apparently included Gyron Juniors as an outgrowth of 562. They are a pretty similar size to the Avon 200s but lower thrust. Maybe just a little study to look at alternative engines e.g. commonality with Buccaneer S.1

 

[zen]

Type 564 apparently included Gyron Juniors as an outgrowth of 562. They are a pretty similar size to the Avon 200s but lower thrust. Maybe just a little study to look at alternative engines e.g. commonality with Buccaneer S.1

True maybe a typo or something?
Otherwise we'd be looking at a substantial reworking of the basic fusilage to house such engines.

While Gyron Junior is close enough it actually allowed for more internal volume for fuel or other equipment.

This might also work in commonality with F.177.

A point however....
Type 562 was to carry Sparrow II for interception of supersonic bomber and while Supermarine managed to improve the platform enough for intercept of Mach 1.3 aircraft at 50,000ft. It wasn't hood enough for Mach 2 attackers at 60,000ft.