Sukhoi Su-57 / T-50 / PAK FA - flight testing and development Part II [2012-current]

[stealthflanker]

Almost certainly. Originally, the target normal takeoff weight (presumably air-to-air load and a certain percentage of internal fuel) was 22-23 metric tons, whereas now it's 25 metric tons by most accounts. The book also stated that the "second stage" structural rework has also increased weight somewhat.

I see. guess the Sukhoi was aiming at Su-27P figures (22500 Kg normal TOW with operating empty weight of some 16300 Kg). This left the payload of about 6200 Kg for Su-27P.

Assuming the same figure for Su-57 with 25000 Kg of normal TOW. Then the empty weight for the current iteration of Su-57 would be about 18800 Kg.

 

[sferrin]

doesn't the Super Hornet also use a similar blocker? and if so does it make a similar sound to the 57?

Only problem with other aircrafts carrying blockers (besides the Su-57) I cant find patents for or what physical features they carry in shape if they compare to the su-57.

Super Hornet


B-1B

 

[tequilashooter]

I know this has to be a feature of the Su-57 which is what I want for this new aircraft and that is turning the side radars and Himalayas system into passive detection mode while having the main radar nose active. https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/2016/03/02/rwresm-and-passive-geolocation/

If an aircraft tries to do an S-shape maneuver the passive radar accuracy would be completely off but it wont be completely off if the aircraft just flies a straight direction towards you.



Problem doing S-shape maneuvers in front over another aircraft just using active radar tracking will result in the sides of the aircraft being exposed with huge RCS returns, but to stay stealth towards an adversary's active radar you fly straight towards to them.

I am sure it is a function of the MIRES to change the side X-band, L-band and Himalayas system into passive tracking while having the radar nose beam remain active meaning your adversary aircraft is screwed whatever they do. I am sure a certain user is going to be pissed here because I am using their blog for my own means which they usually love to go spam a bunch of pictures from.

I know that main nose radars on aircrafts can go active/passive but probably not both at the same time which I am assuming the Su-57 might do as an idea, than the job of other two aircrafts where one just emits radio waves and the other just receives radio waves sharing radar information with each other against that one target. Its good for its radars to receive radio waves from adversary at different time intervals than the main radar that is also turned on getting targeting information. Can the MIRES do this? Just for a better understanding can a aircraft have its main nose radar and RWR on at the same time? Getting new avionics but don't know the extent of it, it definitely has to have superb receiver sensitivity.

 

[TMA1]

Whether or not the first stage engine was a temporary solution, superdry is seemingly in place to fairly quickly replace the first stage engine.

 

[Trident]

Then the empty weight for the current iteration of Su-57 would be about 18800 Kg.

Which would be a major achievement if true! Colour me skeptical.

 

[Geo]

I've recently received Piotr Butowski's Su-57 book, and there are some rather interesting pieces of program history that I wasn't aware of. In no particular order I'll list a few of them off below, although it's by no means exhaustive.

During the now-defunct Indo-Russian FGFA saga, it seemed like the Indians from the beginning preferred the smaller Mikoyan E-721 design over the Sukhoi T-50; when the partnership was forming in 2005, Sukhoi's design was largely finalized, and India would rather pursue a less "mature" design like the E-721 where they can have more input into the design. Whether the FGFA cooperation was doomed to failure from the start is unknown, but there was definitely friction from the very beginning between India and Russia.

Unlike previous Sukhoi fighters, integration of mission systems and other onboard systems was performed by Sukhoi itself, rather than the traditional RPKB of Ramenskoye.

It appears that the AL-41F1 (izdeliye 117) is not quite as "interim" as many have believed; while I think there was always a longer term goal of equipping the aircraft with new engines, it appears that the plan has always been for the PAK FA to enter production and serve in combat units with the AL-41F1, and this was decided as far back as 2004. In fact, it appears that Sukhoi's T-50 submission for the PAK FA had the AL-41F1 from the very beginning. This is an interesting contrast with the Su-27, where the T-10 prototypes used the AL-21, but the revised T-10S and the production aircraft were equipped with the AL-31 from the beginning.

Apparently, weapon firing from internal bays didn't occur until March 2016.

The Su-57 has certainly suffered from weight creep compared to what was originally planned. I recalled the original goal was for an aircraft to be somewhere between the MiG-29 and Su-27 in size, in an effort to rein in cost. Certainly the Su-57 that's in production today is much closer to the Su-27 in terms of size, and especially after the "second stage" structural rework.

Thank you. Interesting and useful information. Hopefully, there will be more info about this history in the new book by Yefim Gordon.
Unfortunately the E-721 is still classified, because there are some chances, that derived design will be materialized (UAE, Russian Navy...).

 

[TMA1]

I truly think foreign interest in a new fighter design wont be serious until the izd 30 materializes. If it does, especially if along the current timeline, I think foreign interest will be considerably greater. Especially so if the stealth and avionics characteristics of Russia's su-57 prove their worth. Honestly I am starting to think it is a more capable aircraft than many had at first realized. And If as I said, izd 30 comes close to the current timeline, this will really hit home I think.

This is good to see as it will only get us to stop resting on air laurels and start jumping ahead of the game in substantial ways.

 

[LMFS]

I truly think foreign interest in a new fighter design wont be serious until the izd 30 materializes. If it does, especially if along the current timeline, I think foreign interest will be considerably greater. Especially so if the stealth and avionics characteristics of Russia's su-57 prove their worth. Honestly I am starting to think it is a more capable aircraft than many had at first realized. And If as I said, izd 30 comes close to the current timeline, this will really hit home I think.

This is good to see as it will only get us to stop resting on air laurels and start jumping ahead of the game in substantial ways.

Why would US not export F-22 but Russia should be ready to do it with the Su-57 + izd. 30? If the reality follows leaked info, it is a state secret and too good to be exported.

 

[AGS-1787]

Well, looking at the su-57 it has some serious wing area, being clean and fast I figure it would give its missiles a boost to get more range. Also, it should turn pretty good. The question is how good is the radar and avionics. The f-22 might be still classified due to its performance and ability to mess with other airplane's radars.

 

[tequilashooter]

Well, looking at the su-57 it has some serious wing area, being clean and fast I figure it would give its missiles a boost to get more range. Also, it should turn pretty good. The question is how good is the radar and avionics. The f-22 might be still classified due to its performance and ability to mess with other airplane's radars.

Good news is new avionics for 2022, Mikheeyev was an advisor of KRET that showcased articles in 2014 wanting to equip the Su-57 with ROFAR, I believe he was quoted again but from VEGA when they showcased the photonic radar antennas in 2020, the Yakhroma radar is in question based on the frequency ranges it would operate in along with mm waves, even the head of their ABM shield was talking about terahertz ranges involving these kinds of radars.

2014 Rostec presented 3 EW GaN MMIC airborne jammers and when I started talking about those airborne jammers being mounted all after 2014 everyone got pissed, So to avoid that drama here I will pretend as a bet that the Su-57 will get those for the himalayas for its 2nd upgrade to appease users here and avoid myself unnecessary headaches. 2009 was when the radars were showcased and considering where we are all its already a safe bet that radars would have to be upgraded in 2022 if they haven't already by now is secret(software company cooperating with sukhoi labeled the radars as N036M instead of N036). With Himalayas + 2,268 t/r modules I am sure the RWR sensitivity of this aircraft finding an emitting target will be splendidly beautiful in fact I say its superior than other existing 5th gens and it wont just stop there if they feel like making an announcement of what they have changed in terms of avionics.

 

[GARGEAN]

The f-22 might be still classified due to ... ability to mess with other airplane's radars.

Would be strange reason for classification considering how poor it is in that regard...

 

[QuadroFX]

Only two more Su-57 in this year regarding to anonymous source of RIA News

 

[helmutkohl]

Russia to make a two seat version of the Su-57?
India must be jelly

Минобороны и "Сухой" планируют разработку двухместного Су-57 на экспорт

Модель может создать дополнительный спрос, отметил вице-премьер Юрий Борисов

tass.ru

 

[TMA1]

Would be wise particularly for facilitation of the hunter drones.

 

[greenmartian2017]

Is there an operational squadron of Su-57s now? Or not yet? If there is, when was that stood up as an active fighter wing?

 

[Anduriel]

Is there an operational squadron of Su-57s now? Or not yet? If there is, when was that stood up as an active fighter wing?

There is a single serial Su-57 flying. This year it will be +4. So no sqn or regiment yet.

 

[flateric]

Is there an operational squadron of Su-57s now? Or not yet? If there is, when was that stood up as an active fighter wing?

There is a single serial Su-57 flying. This year it will be +4. So no sqn or regiment yet.

+2

 

[Anduriel]

Is there an operational squadron of Su-57s now? Or not yet? If there is, when was that stood up as an active fighter wing?

There is a single serial Su-57 flying. This year it will be +4. So no sqn or regiment yet.

+2

Минобороны РФ в 2021 году получит четыре новых истребителя Су-57

Министерство обороны РФ в этом году получит четыре новых многофункциональных истребителя пятого поколения Су-57, сообщил вице-премьер правительства Юрий Борисов Радио Sputnik, 16.06.2021

radiosputnik.ria.ru

Here Borisov says about 4.

 

[flateric]

Is there an operational squadron of Su-57s now? Or not yet? If there is, when was that stood up as an active fighter wing?

There is a single serial Su-57 flying. This year it will be +4. So no sqn or regiment yet.

+2

Минобороны РФ в 2021 году получит четыре новых истребителя Су-57

Министерство обороны РФ в этом году получит четыре новых многофункциональных истребителя пятого поколения Су-57, сообщил вице-премьер правительства Юрий Борисов Радио Sputnik, 16.06.2021

radiosputnik.ria.ru

Here Borisov says about 4.

ВКС России получат два серийных Су-57 в 2021 году, сообщил источник

Воздушно-космические силы получат в этом году два серийных истребителя Су-57, сообщил РИА Новости источник в авиастроительной отрасли. Первый поступил в армию в РИА Новости, 11.06.2021

ria.ru

We can check this on new year's eve. So far they are delivered with a collosal tempo of one per year in 2019-2020 and zero in first half of 2021 (it's June 17 already).

 

[torginus]

Russia to make a two seat version of the Su-57?
India must be jelly

Минобороны и "Сухой" планируют разработку двухместного Су-57 на экспорт

Модель может создать дополнительный спрос, отметил вице-премьер Юрий Борисов

tass.ru

Will it be tandem seat like Su-34? I've read that thanks to modern avionics, modern aircraft like the F-35 and F-22 take so little mental effort to fly, that the pilot can essentially put all effort into mission-specific tasks. I've also read that even though the F15EX is a two-seater, the Air Force isn't planning to put in a second pilot? If this is the case, what's the use case for a two-seater aircraft besides training?

 

[Josh_TN]

In the F-15EX case, the USAF is buying a multirole version off the current production line without modification to replace a single role aircraft (F-15C). So that’s a unique situation. I think it didn’t save money to rip the back seat out.

A convincing argument could be made for needing a second UAV operator to direct drones unless they were operating in a purely escort mode as decoys/off board ECM.

 

[tequilashooter]

Will it be tandem seat like Su-34? I've read that thanks to modern avionics, modern aircraft like the F-35 and F-22 take so little mental effort to fly, that the pilot can essentially put all effort into mission-specific tasks. I've also read that even though the F15EX is a two-seater, the Air Force isn't planning to put in a second pilot? If this is the case, what's the use case for a two-seater aircraft besides training?

I guess 3 heads are better than one? https://tass.com/defense/1013337 one has to control the drones, the other is to support decisions for pilots while the pilot is the pilot? less accidents is another idea. Only listed as export, so maybe countries purchasing it don't get AI support?

 

[Acatomic]

3 can be seen in the video:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1405775918539309061

 

[haavarla]

Well that is not surprising, is it?
But will those three airframes be finalized by the end of this year.. that IS the question!

 

[tequilashooter]

Dont really see the bother or rush to produce when the other versions are getting new avionics, weapons and engines. The slower the production for the old versions the better for a modernized production

 

[haavarla]

The Su-57 prod-line are up and running, that much is clear. We see it running alongside the Flanker line. It is only a matter of time, in how the Su-57 production will expand. Time will tell.
Personally i think the final engine does not really have much impact here. They will pull those airframes already out, back into a engine retrofit, and that is that.

So, the ney sayers only have to rely on too little too late argument as a 6th generation platform is "just" around the corner..

 

[sferrin]

US 6th gen won't fly in the next 10 years.

 

[haavarla]

yeah well.. it can surly be pointed out that F-35 are flying in en mass.
And that there are no more 4th gen western airframes in production anymore.... well bar SH, F-15, EF, Rafale nd so on.

 

[tequilashooter]

Personally i think the final engine does not really have much inpact here. They will pull those airframes already out, back into a engine retrofit, and that is that.

So, the ney sayers only have to rely on too little too late argument as a 6th generation platform is "just" around the corner..

Only disappointing news is that reading the maks 2021 airshow it seems they wont have the project Megapolis 2022-2024 upgrade demonstrations ready, maybe the 2023 and 2025 airshows will have better chances if they show it at all.

 

[LMFS]

yeah well.. it can surly be pointed out that F-35 are flying in en mass.
And that there are no more 4th gen western airframes in production anymore.... well bar SH, F-15, EF, Rafale nd so on.

Around 2030 US will decide whether to start from scratch the development of their 4.5G fighter to substitute the F-16

 

[Bounce]

US 6th gen won't fly in the next 10 years.

It's already flown.

 

[Anduriel]

US 6th gen won't fly in the next 10 years.

It's already flown.

Wait what?

 

[Bhurki]

US 6th gen won't fly in the next 10 years.

It's already flown.

I'm sure he meant FOC.

 

[sferrin]

US 6th gen won't fly in the next 10 years.

It's already flown.

No it hasn't. (If you read their carefully worded announcement you'll see that.)

 

[tequilashooter]

Глава ОАК: новейший отечественный истребитель Су-57 будут заказывать сотнями

Юрий Слюсарь отметил, что уже в этом году ожидается начало разработки нескольких версий этой машины

tass.ru

Yuri Slyusar noted that development of several versions of this machine is expected to begin this year.

MOSCOW, July 15. / TASS /. The order for the latest fifth-generation fighters, the Su-57, may be measured in hundreds of units. This was announced by the General Director of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Yuri Slyusar during a meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

"We hope that, of course, since this machine has been chosen as the platform, the main machine for solving a wide range of tasks, the order for these machines will be measured in hundreds," he said.

According to him, development of several versions of this machine is expected to begin this year. “This year we will deliver four cars already. And then our task is to reach the level of 12 cars a year together with cooperation,” Slyusar noted.

Well at least this news source saved the day compared to another thread we had on a new aircraft.

 

[DWG]

3 can be seen in the video:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1405775918539309061

A little late to this, but what's possibly more interesting in this image are the platform sets in the foreground, that's at least three production bays with zero activity. So we can conclude there's no intention to flow directly from the limited batch currently under construction - I count 9 airframes here - to full scale production. And as there doesn't seem to be any provision for aircraft to flow from station to station, this may well represent glorified hand-building rather than actual productionized manufacture. It's a long time since I had a brief peek onto the Eurofighter production floor (back in the DA era), but this seems basic by comparison.

 

[TR1]

You are looking at mostly the Su-35 line. Which of course a serial mass produced plane, but probably quite a bit simpler than the 57 line.

 

[TMA1]

It is smart. Many nations keep production of military kit slow to keep their workers and braintrust busy for years to come. No need to flush these things out in the dozens.

 

[TomcatViP]

In fact they only do that to cut their charges related to their workforce: Lower production rate, less workers, less charges.

The problem with aircraft manufacturing the way it was done in the 80's is that those kind of parallel manufacturing lines don't allow much increase in output.

If you would pay attention to LM F-35 manufacturing line, you'll notice that there is only one single gigantic line for the entire program.

 

[GARGEAN]

Problem is: that's not main line and never supposed to be. They are in process of making a new one in different building along with hiring hefty numbers of new personnel (said to be 500+). Thus expected speed growth in upcoming years.