Sukhoi Su-57 / T-50 / PAK FA - flight testing and development Part II [2012-current]

quellish said:
RadicalDisconnect said:
The text reads " Inlet Guide Vanes. Development of layered reinforcing carbonfibre (i.e CNT) package, providing absorption of radar waves".

Which mean, electrically, these are similar to the F-117 inlets. Which is a clever solution.

Careful: carbon fibre is not equal CNT.
The picture looks very similar to the Super Hornet device which has been discussed here a while ago.
Looking at the fittings of the blades, does anybody think they can be rotated / twisted to provide a more or less straight vane?

Quellish: I don't understand your point. F-117 inlets have a tight grate blocker/cover right at their aperture, while this device here is clearly more airflow-friendly, and designed for installation in a deeply recessed position inside the duct. Did you mean F/A-18E/F instead of F-117?
 
bipa said:
Quellish: I don't understand your point. F-117 inlets have a tight grate blocker/cover right at their aperture, while this device here is clearly more airflow-friendly, and designed for installation in a deeply recessed position inside the duct. Did you mean F/A-18E/F instead of F-117?



From "Radar Man", by Ed Lovick:


"My contribution at that time was to propose a special treatment for the engine inlets. It consisted of an “egg crate”[29] designed to operate as a collection of cut-off waveguides intended to prevent entry of radar waves into the front parts of the engines while allowing adequate air flow.
The smallest grid openings I was allowed by the propulsion engineers were too large to cause cut-off at the Gun Dish frequency. Their cut-off frequency was less than half the Gun Dish frequency.
At higher frequencies the grid would act like waveguides and let the energy go through, so we made the tubular parts of the inlet grids out of lossy materials. There was no metal in those grids. They were fiberglass with resistive coatings, and the resistive coatings were step tapered, not very conductive on the outside, and more conductive as waves progressed in, and finally fairly conductive. In this case the desire was to make the inlets blend into the surrounding absorber coated metal surfaces."


...


"One evening while the model was in the hangar, I decided to measure the resistivity of some of the tubes in the inlet grids. What we had done for the model was make, in effect, thin plastic shells that were coated with the resistive materials, and the shells would slide into a fiberglass replica of the inlet grid, so that we could take out those resistive card tubes if we wanted to—and I did."


The F-117 inlets, like the internet, are a collection of lossy tubes. Not a "blocker" like a Microsoft firewall.


So no, I did not mean the F-18E/F/X/M inlets.
 
quellish said:
The F-117 inlets, like the internet, are a collection of lossy tubes. Not a "blocker" like a Microsoft firewall.
So no, I did not mean the F-18E/F/X/M inlets.

Very good input, thanks. The solution may seem surprisingly radical, but the text and mention of Gun Dish (J/K band) make sense.

(but concerning T-50, I am not sure the above pictured device actually uses such conductivity tapering, even though I admit that the caption can definitely be interpreted that way)
 
Some interesting info about the PAK FA's L402 Himilayas.

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/755335

The Radio Electronic Technologies concern provided the Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation (PAC FA) T-50 with the first batch of Himalayas electronic warfare systems.

“We are currently testing it,” General Director Nikolay Kolesov told TASS.

“T-50 prototypes are already equipped with the Himalayas onboard defense system. The system is used in plane tests,” Kolesov said.

The unique air system increases fighter jet’s jamming resistance and damage tolerance, as well as neutralizes enemy’s signature control systems. It also helps decrease aggregate weight of the PAC FA.

The Himalayas are integrated into the jet fighter system to the extent it functions as a so-called smart cover. “In other words, we are not producing some separate blocks, but parts of a plane with add-in electronic devices,” Kolesov stressed when talking about fifth-generation jet fighters’ electronic warfare characteristics.

The Himalayas EW system was developed by the Kaluga Scientific Research and Radio Technology Institute and is manufactured at the Signal radioplant in Stavropol. They are both part of the Radio Electronic Technologies concern.

The concern is Russia's largest electronic industry holding company. It was established back in 2009 and is now part of the Rostec State Corporation. It specializes in development and production of systems and commercial avionics, position-radar station of air basing, identification and electronic warfare systems, measuring apparatus for various purposes. The concern includes 97 scientific research institutes, a development laboratory and production facilities.

Some of the description seems rather puzzling. I'm guessing those are just things lost in the translation?

Also, do we know if the T-50 is carrying the izdeliye 750 or 760? Also, is it true that the 760 has reduced cross section compared to the 750?
 
Again, from Jo on Key Pubs.

http://www.freepatent.ru/patents/2482149

...is from the very people doing this (I can deduce that from the accredited authors & company):

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...52#post2172452

Frequency range 2-20GHz; thickness 1.5mm for -15dB (spray-on -19dB for 1.5mm). Now I concede the operating temperature is a tad on the low side, but given that it dates from 2011, I'm sure a thermal insulator in the PMC binder will factor as the patent is filed by the Type 30's lead developer (current developments in excess of 300°C).

Anyways, before the first of the 'second stage' prototypes break cover and concentrating on the design of the current crop, what sort of values will be achievable for, say, 5mm (objectively speaking of course) and how would these results effect your T-50 'beam aspect' diagram? Shall we call it (a very conservative) -25dB for 5mm?

If you could pay special attention to the paragraph containing the phrases "corner reflectors" and "intersection of two planes", both these elements are visible on the pole model pic. Thanks.

A question for those knowledgeable on radar stealth: given the shaping of the PAK FA's rear fuselage, given how the nacelles have a close to 90 degree angle joint with the fuselage, how well can materials and RAM remedy for the shaping compared to, say, the F-22 or F-35?
 
Russia's Stealthy Ambitions

12/22/2014

​The Russian air force is slated to receive its first production stealthy fifth-generation T-50 PAK-FA fighter off the Sukhoi assembly line in 2016, reported IHS Jane's. "The number of prototypes is increasing; the state trial program is being conducted as per schedule," Vladislav Goncharenko, director of Sukhoi's parent United Aircraft Corporation, quoted from a radio interview in the Dec. 16 report. As part of its overall aircraft recapitalization plan, the Russian air force plans to have a total of 55 advanced T-50 aircraft in service by 2020, according to the report. Sukhoi has already produced five PAK-FA airframes to support testing and evaluation, and three more are currently on the production line. The prototype fighter flew for the first time in 2010.
 
bobbymike said:
... Sukhoi has already produced five PAK-FA airframes to support testing and evaluation, and three more are currently on the production line. The prototype fighter flew for the first time in 2010.

Any news on T50-5 ??? What was/is the final outcome of its mishap ? ... even more will the reason be published ? Can it be repaired as originally stated or is it a write-off ... and when will T50-6 fly ?

To admit I'm not only surprised by the great progress the J-20 has made this year but also by the lack of - at least visible - progress on the T50 program.

Deino
 
I'm a bit surprised that this was not posted here ... fount at the Key-Forum: T50-7 - a static test-airframe - arrived at the Gromov Flight Research Institute (LII) at Zhukovsky !
 

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Deino said:
I'm a bit surprised that this was not posted here ... fount at the Key-Forum: T50-7 - a static test-airframe - arrived at the Gromov Flight Research Institute (LII) at Zhukovsky !

Bit of a stupid question, but what happened to T-50-6? Is -6 a flyable airframe?
 
Nothing has happened to T-50-6, in fact there is two. ;)

T-50-6-1: "Stage 1" T-50, aka basically as the previous flying ones.
T-50-6-2: "Stage 2" T-50 with "significant changes"
T-50-7: Static test article of Stage 2 T-50.

So far it doesn't appear that T-50-7 has a lot of changes, externally atleast. (apparently lots of things has changed internally and is also evident by the modifications done to -1/-2 and -5) The engine area is now surrounded by composites, but that is it. Guess we have to wait for more pics of either 6-2 or -7.
 
So why did Sukhoi develop two -6s instead of going with -7, -8 and -9? It does not make sense.
 
FighterJock said:
So why did Sukhoi develop two -6s instead of going with -7, -8 and -9? It does not make sense.


Perhaps the -6 models are both intermediate increments to the first one with all of the changes, -7 being the iron bird and the -8 being the first one with all of the changes to fly? O.K. Flateric, what's up? :)
 
Nah, don't think so. "Incremental" birds are the modified -1, -2 and factory -4, -5. All those have the changes that are seen on the modified T-50-0 and T-50-7.

Basically it is something like this;

Testing of T-50-0 and the T-50-1 MAKS 2011 showed the weak points of the construction. T-50-0 got modified to fight those weak points and so did -1 and -2. -3 got built prior to all the changes being settled and besides it didn't need them as it is mostly radar bird not manevrability test plane.

-4 and -5 were built in time to get for those changes to be settled and implemented during the production. All those changes were stop gaps for time being with 6-2 and -7 being the true modified frames.

That is the rough timeline i think.
 
I can't wait to see what the first production PAK-FA T-50 (Su-50 or whatever the in service designation will be) will look like.
 
India's Stealthy Two-Seaters

1/13/2015

​Russia agreed to a preliminary design for an export version of its stealthy fifth generation T-50 PAK-FA fighter in cooperation with India, reported the state-run RIA Novosti. "As of now, we and our Indian colleagues have completed the creation of the export version of the PAK-FA, known in India as [Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft]," Andrey Marshankin, Russia's representative to the bi-national design commission, in the Jan. 10 report. Unlike the Russian T-50, the Indian variant will likely be a two-seat version to meet Indian Air Force preferences for a two-man crew, according to the press. "We already have documents and understanding of the scope of the next phase of design, the scale of future production" with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, he added. India plans to purchase between 250 and 300 of the fighters as part of an $11 billion joint development program with Russia. The first aircraft are slated for delivery in 2017.
------------------------------------------
So India will have more 5th Gen air superiority fighters than the US. We could have built 700+ for us and another 400+ for allies. The cancellation of the F-22 will go down in history as one of the dumbest procurement decisions ever IMHO.
 
Are there any recent information about the 055 prototype !??

We all know that right after the mishap Sukhoi reported that it will be rebuild and repaired ... but until then no news.

Deino
 
Monty Python - Dead Parrot
http://youtu.be/4vuW6tQ0218
 
flateric said:
Monty Python - Dead Parrot

Thanks even if sad to hear.
Will they use it as a instructor trainer or something similar ??

Deino
 
A development timeline apparently posted by Sukhoi (this also apparently confirms the Su-50 designation?):

Edit: woops
 

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Erm.. no.

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/02/cool-graphic-shows-the-evolution-of-russias-next-generation-fighter-jet
http://bbb4445.deviantart.com/art/Su50-Pakfa-Timeline-509059200

Fanart.
 
If you don't mind me asking, what proof do you have that they are Fanart? Your link certainly doesn't suggest it. Oddly enough, your link here has "deviantart" in its address but its nowhere to be found in the site it takes you to...


I ask, because there's also a few images that were posted a few weeks ago that show Sukhoi T-50 #054 painted in a new desert scheme and has Syrian, Russian, and Iranian flags painted on it (along with some Arabic/Persian writing, no clue on meaning). Could of course just be creative advertising by Sukhoi.
 

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Eagle2009 said:
If you don't mind me asking, what proof do you have that they are Fanart? Your link certainly doesn't suggest it. Oddly enough, your link here has "deviantart" in its address but its nowhere to be found in the site it takes you to...


The linked article states:

The timeline above was made by a fan based on this official Su-30 graphic by Sukhoi, which has been modernizing its current flagship fighter, the Su-30 — a twin-engine two-set beast for” all-weather, air-to-air and air-to-surface deep interdiction missions” — since its 1992 introduction.

Seems pretty explicit to me.

The text of the URL leads to the DeviantArt account of the artist who created the new diagram. Try this link:

http://bbb4445.deviantart.com/art/Su50-Pakfa-Timeline-509059200


PS: I'm fairly sure the desert camouflage pictures are fake. They have a slightly CGI look to them, and the original source appears to be an AsianDefenseNews page that is no longer online.
 
TomS,


Ok, so here are the issues I'm seeing with your explanation:


- Article only mentions "fanart" concerning the Su-30/English poster, NOT the Su-50 poster.
- Article states the author created the English language poster from an official poster from Sukhoi, but yet this poster is missing from his DeviantArt page.
- The DeviantArt member DOES have a Russian poster for the Su-50, which has a hashtag for Russia's official export entity, but his English poster does not.
- Why would the DeviantArt member have a Russian-language poster for the Su-50 but NOT the Russian Su-30 poster that is discussed in the Gizmodo article?


Of note, those desert-scheme images are ALSO on this same person's page. I have inquired with the member to see if the images are "real" or his works of art.


I personally found those images on PakistanDefenseForum, posted on 04 January this year.


Hopefully I'll get a response from the DeviantArt member and help clear this all up..
 
Once more. This is fan art. Author has used unofficial Su-30 poster as a basis for his view on T-50 development. Neither of these both comes from Sukhoi itself.

Sandermakoff was an author of original Su-30 poster he made for DefendingRussia.Ru
http://sandrermakoff.livejournal.com/752132.html

50-4 renders are fan art as well.
 
I screwed up the original links slightly, there were two which got mashed to one. The deviantart one links to the artist directly, I would call that conclusive.

Its pretty obvious that its fanart. It doesn't look even vaguely plausible as an official Sukhoi chart. How can there be designations now for non-existent Iranian Su-50s?
 
This is almost deliberately obtuse. The article refers the T-50 poster as fan art. It is displayed above the text that says "the above was made by a fan" The bottom image is the original Russian poster about the Su-30 from the official DefendingRussia website. There's a link in the text that leads straight to the Russian page with this image.

That's why the Russian Su-30 poster isn't on DeviantArt - the user didn't create that image, but did create the other three (Su-30 English version and both versions to the T-50).

A few other giveaways:

1. Sukhoi can afford English speakers to proof its marketing copy. The English T-50 chart is littered with spelling errors (I count at least 8).

2. South Korea didn't order the T-50, much less for delivery in three years. In reality, it just ordered the F-35.
 
TomS & PaulMM,


Much appreciated for the clarification. I've been trying to calm folks over at the IMF for the last day on that poster (though I just suspected it was "creative advertising" by Sukhoi).


When I read that phrase in the article, I thought it was referring to the Su-30 poster just below it.


I'll try to spread the word on the poster..
 
The fan art was made by a Key Pubs user named crow11, who post some pretty objectionable stuff in my opinion.

Also, according to Janes there would be 55 T-50s by 2020.

http://www.janes.com/article/47115/russia-plans-to-receive-55-pak-fas-by-2020
 
sublight is back,


I never said I believe the poster's content was 100% accurate. As I said, I was attempting to keep folks at various forums from getting too excited about the poster, but I was not certain of whether it really came from Sukhoi.


UPDATE:


Concerning the T-50 in a desert paint scheme, I so far have had no luck finding a possible source for this claimed PS'd images. I've gone through quite a few images so far (including all 162 images on Airliners.net). I found a few possible matches but the shadows and angle of the aircraft don't match. I also made sure not to limit my search to any one prototype.


If these images are PS'd, the "creators" did a good job of picking an image that doesn't appear to be easily found. Which would suggest 2 possibilities to me: Either this is some high-class trolling (aka done by folks with access to some 'unique' original images) or the images are real.
 
The first one appears to have inconsistent shadows - it has likely been superimposed on that background. Most likely both are colourised and placed on these backgrounds.
 
The front view is probably based off this image

0_c4fc7_22214c78_orig.jpg


Note that the heat mirage is wrong in the altered image. In the altered image, it's equally intense below the fuselage as above; in the original, the heat rises (as one would expect) and the view below the aircraft is much less distorted.
 
And here's the likely source for the side image:

sukhoi_pak_fa_l3.jpg




Google's Reverse image search is a great tool for this -- toss the suspect image into the search box and it returns similar matches based on shape.
 
The first image is a bad photoshop job actually. As someone who has some background in art, I can see that the dimensions are off. If you can visualize the plane the aircraft is on vs the plane of the ground. They are on 2 different planes. The shadow is very telling.
 
Upgraded T-50 PAK-FA powerplant in rig tests.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/aero-india-upgraded-t-50-pak-fa-powerplant-in-rig-409258/
 
You know what?
http://www.janes.com/article/49165/russians-look-to-capitalise-on-predicted-demise-of-indian-rafale-deal
Oh my...
 

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