Sukhoi PAK FA (T-50, I-21) Part III

[Avimimus]

The Gsh-301 weighs approximately half as much as the M61.

Hmm, two 30 mm cannons. Can't remember reading that information before.

Agreed. If true, its totally insane.

Unless one of them fires backward of course! With the modern 360 EO systems, laser rangefinders and advanced FBW it is now possibile for an autopilot shooting down a target in the rear hemisphere with a fixed weapon.

My point is that it may be insane - but not totally.

 

[Matej]

Russia to start 5th generation fighter tests in 2010 - deputy PM

Sukhoi Su-50 Phantasma

 

[donnage99]

My point is that it may be insane - but not totally.

No, it's completely insane. Engineering an fighter aircraft is about fighting for space and weight (more so in 5th generation aircraft), putting a second gun that has little or straight-up no tactical significance whatsoever while taking up precious space and pushing the weight is stupid. The guy who wrote the article probably either makes a typo or doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[flateric]

He doesn't know. Period.

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

or he prolly misread his source. the 2 there could be a reference number that was misinterpreted as the number of guns

but i dunno

 

[xmotex]

It might just be a translation issue - GSh-30-2 as used in the Su-25 is a twin-barrel 30mm cannon.
It's conceivable the PAK FA's gun could be a development of this weapon.

This may have been misinterpreted as a dual cannon arrangement somewhere along the line.

 

[flateric]

The PAK FA is believed to possess advanced avionics, stealth capability, a ferry range of 4,000 to 5,500 km, and endurance of 3.3 hrs; it is armed with next-generation air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-ship missiles, and has two 30-mm cannons.

level of statements can be roughly compared to FOX News woman presenter discussing F-22 usage anainst Somali pirates

 

[SOC]

the one that the author mentioned about fitting in triumf-esque missile got me really intrigued with its size

anyway, if people missed the "documents" here it is

A Triumf missile could be a 9M96 derivative. Wouldn't be too massive, but it would definitely be large.

 

[Avimimus]

It might just be a translation issue - GSh-30-2 as used in the Su-25 is a twin-barrel 30mm cannon.
It's conceivable the PAK FA's gun could be a development of this weapon.

This may have been misinterpreted as a dual cannon arrangement somewhere along the line.

Pretty unlikely if you ask me:
Gsh-301 = 46kg
Gsh-30-2 = 115kg

It makes more sense to have a slightly obligue rearward firing cannon for the extra weight (although, I admit that missle technology is overtaking guns).

 

[Sundog]

Why the hell would they put a rear firing gun in a fighter? Hell, we don't even put them in our bombers anymore. Unless it is in a turret to shoot down incoming missiles, but I just don't see the added weight being a benefit to a fighter. If it's truly the equivalent of the F-22, it shouldn't need such technology.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I think as flateric said, the reporter knows nothing.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Problem solved:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_PAK_FA

All figures quoted by the journalist come from here.

 

[donnage99]

It makes more sense to have a slightly obligue rearward firing cannon for the extra weight (although, I admit that missle technology is overtaking guns).

If you look at the combat records since vietnam (and despite the popular belief, even during vietnam), missiles already taken over the gun. The only reason why certain new aircraft still have the gun (while others like certain variants of f-35 or eurofighter typhoon have moved on) is purely because of the basis "you never know what will happen." Putting an extra gun on top of that is pure idiocy.

 

[flateric]

According to Groomi, and several other reliable sources, PAK FA has performed initial low-speed taxi tests at KNAAPO airfield on Dec. 23.
Once more confirmed - no photos will be officially unveiled until the maiden flight.

 

[flateric]

Russia could start 5th generation fighter tests by yearend

Russia to start 5th generation fighter tests in 2010 - deputy PM

15:4023/12/2009

Russia could start tests of its fifth-generation fighter in late 2009 or early 2010, a deputy prime minister said on Wednesday.
"We are not making any New Year presents, but flight tests will start in the very near future," said Sergei Ivanov, who oversees the defense sectors of industry.
He said on December 8 the trials would begin in 2010.
Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin has said the fighter, which has been under development since the 1990s, will enter service with the Air Force in 2015.
Russia's only known fifth-generation project is Sukhoi's PAK FA and the current prototype is the T-50. It is designed to compete with the U.S. F-22 Raptor (so far the world's only fifth-generation fighter aircraft) and F-35 Lightning II, but has yet to take to the skies.
The T-50's maiden flight has been repeatedly postponed since early 2007 for unspecified reasons.
However, in August 2009, Russian Air Force Chief Alexander Zelin said that there were problems with the engines and research was ongoing.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20091223/157334042.html

 

[flanker]

Groomi source:

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=47703&page=194

 

[flateric]

not earlier than February...

 

[Ogami musashi]

Maa, maa, If only one could spot the plane taxiing..

So it appears it looks like F-22 (i was told that by friends at le bourget) but it more streamlined, however the squashed is difficult to imagine.
In any case it seems it is not like any of the representation we've seen isn't it?

 

[flateric]

however the squashed is difficult to imagine.

quite easy!

 

[Ogami musashi]

Ah yes squashed in the lateral axis..

It was the "frog like" ....you know..i'm a froggy...and here in france...frogs don't really mean something that beautiful and quite opposed to streamlined.

I don't read russian but look at sukhoi.ru; you're debatting about the name or is there already a real denomination?

 

[flanker]

Ah yes squashed in the lateral axis..

It was the "frog like" ....you know..i'm a froggy...and here in france...frogs don't really mean something that beautiful and quite opposed to streamlined.

I don't read russian but look at sukhoi.ru; you're debatting about the name or is there already a real denomination?

Latest Paralay drawings shows a quite squashed, somewhat froggy like plane:

http://www.paralay.com/TEMP/50.jpg

So, the "frog-like" comment doesn't disprove correctness on the drawings done by paralay, but actually prove them IMHO. Well, i for one, hope that PAK-FA will look as in picture over. Looks fresh, and original. Also, it reminds me of Yf-23, which is a big pluss.

 

[donnage99]

http://www.paralay.com/TEMP/50.jpg

So, the "frog-like" comment doesn't disprove correctness on the drawings done by paralay, but actually prove them IMHO. Well, i for one, hope that PAK-FA will look as in picture over. Looks fresh, and original. Also, it reminds me of Yf-23, which is a big pluss.

This picture's angle is sorta misleading. If you see it from different views, I think you'll change your mind.

 

[sanjeev.k]

Ah yes squashed in the lateral axis..

It was the "frog like" ....you know..i'm a froggy...and here in france...frogs don't really mean something that beautiful and quite opposed to streamlined.

I don't read russian but look at sukhoi.ru; you're debatting about the name or is there already a real denomination?

Latest Paralay drawings shows a quite squashed, somewhat froggy like plane:

http://www.paralay.com/TEMP/50.jpg

So, the "frog-like" comment doesn't disprove correctness on the drawings done by paralay, but actually prove them IMHO. Well, i for one, hope that PAK-FA will look as in picture over. Looks fresh, and original. Also, it reminds me of Yf-23, which is a big pluss.

Pardon me flateric - but i fail to see how the latest paralay rendering even remotely resembles the YF-23 (unless you consider the widely separated engines as resemblance). It does not even have the distinctive pure rhombus wing shape of the YF-23. The wing shape/sweep angle is more reminiscent of the F-18 (at least from that particular viewing angle).
To my eye (from that particular viewing angle), that thing looks like an oversized stealthified F-18 with JSF style tail configuration. It would be terribly disappointing if the real PAK-FA ends up looking like that

 

[flateric]

Pardon me flateric

should be 'pardon me flanker'

 

[Sundog]

That rendering isn't by Paralay, I have the people who did it on my pC at home(I'maway for the holidays). If the T-50 actually looks like that rendering, it looks like a cross between a Flanker and a Raptor to me, which is why I call it the Flaptor.

Although, having said that, I think that rendering is a rather nice looking design.

 

[intoxicated]

The latest rendering in Popular Mechanics in the article of Paralay is simply a CG clone of the famous "Saturn image" which appeared years ago. It is also one to one with the famous four view picture on a blue background which is also few years old.

 

[flateric]

Kinda we have eyes, too But if you remember he was talking of mysterious photo used as basis for Sayapin's renderings - right from Pogosyan office, whatever it was

 

[intoxicated]

But if you remember he was talking of mysterious photo used as basis for Sayapin's renderings - right from Pogosyan office, whatever it was

But where are the differencies (between Saturn image, four view 'blue' image, the well known image 'from above' and the newest CG)? They simply do not exist . So, what is the point in the "mysterious photo from Pogosyans office"? As you know, the most comprehensive description about PAK-FA in www was written five years ago by a participant on avia.ru forum nicknamed Т-10С. And also by a participant RSM-55 on keypublishing forum around a year ago.
But what i want to say - we lack more drawings, speculations, which may have some realism.
It is sad that only unrealistic, completely artistic renderings with no engineering sense appear.

 

[paralay]

http://paralay.com/t50/513.jpg

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Looks like a scratchbuilt model, in someone's house, to me.

 

[Avimimus]

Looks like a scratchbuilt model, in someone's house, to me.

Yes, but unfortunately government officials and engineers also live in houses. Similarly, models of secret projects tend to be scratch built (no need for mass production right?). So, there is no certainty.

 

[Ogami musashi]

http://forumimage.ru/show/1365742

 

[Matej]

Clearly fake (in my opinion).

 

[Ogami musashi]

It's a good photoshop then.

What do you think it was based on?

 

[fightingirish]

http://forumimage.ru/show/1365742

It's a good photoshop then.
What do you think it was based on?

IMHO this picture is PSed.
After a first look, it looks more like a new Mig-29KUB or a Mig-35 without any camo taking off on a test flight.
I presume that the original can be found at a Russian website like www.pilot.strizhi.info.

 

[Ogami musashi]

Paralay posted this as an evidence of PS, but to me...it doesn't match at all..

 

[Matej]

Something from the MiG-29/Su-27 family. But there are too many unlikely details: front landing gear on the very improbable place, different diameter/shape of the exhaust nozzles during take off/landing, monolithic colour without any shadows on the left gear door, the shape of the whole front and top fuselage, suggesting the aerodynamic configuration developed by TsAGI for the MiG-29/Su-27 family, which is highly unlikely for the next generation (stealthy) fighter and a lot of other things. Too much coincidences to be the truth.

 

[LeoXiao]

That's obviously a MiG-29.

 

[roberto_yeager]

That photo, is the same than:

Thanks to Charly015.

1Saludo

 

[Stargazer]

Considering the angle, not quite the same photograph but one very close, I'd say a couple of seconds before the other one was taken. Still, I think it's definitely the same aircraft, and therefore what we have here is a fake of the T-50.