Sukarno stays in power - what would Asutralia do?

Dilandu said:
There is a bit of problem - what exactly a Clemenceau-like carrier, build in 1970s, would operate in terms of fighter aircraft? The F-8 Crusader production ended by 1965; the F-4 and F-14 are likely too heavy for medium-size carrier.

So the option for Australia seems to be either second-hand F-8G from US naval reserves, or pushing for Jaguar M (a prototype was build, and Australian interest might actually help it to won over Super Étendard)
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Plus the Crusader was very hot, if not an outright killer. Out of 42 F-8E(FN) procured in 1964, the Aéronavale lost at least 16 in crashes. When they modernized 18 of them in the early 1990's, it was the bulk of the remaining fleet !

The Jaguar M, as flown, was a dog. Then again, it had Mk.102 Adours without the modulated reheat - it pioneered it actually, and passed it to the AdA Jaguars. From the Aéronavale testing on Foch, 1970-72 the Jaguar M would, first and firemost need a larger wing and the british Adour 104 with far more thrust - or the 106 eventually.

Well ok, let's start from there: bigger wing, modulated reheats, Adour Mk.104. Next: a radar in the nose, I think the indian Jaguars got the Super Etendard radar. Which was a derivate of the Mirage F1 Cyrano IV. Which in turn, would allow Matra Super 530F missiles on top of the Magic 2. There was a lot of room in the Jaguar nose, no reason it couldn't get a compact Cyrano radar, if the contemporary F1 and S.E got it.

Of course you could do the same from the british side of the fence: unlike the french they adopted the Mk.104 Adour, and there were Big Wing Jaguars projects like Big Wing Harriers. For the radars: Blue Fox, Blue Vixen. For the missile: AIM-9L and perhaps the Tornado ADV Skyflash. If the SHAR Blue Vixen handled AMRAAMs, it can certainly handle Skyflash.
 
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Archibald said:
Plus the Crusader was very hot, if not an outright killer. Out of 42 F-8E(FN) procured in 1964, the Aéronavale lost at least 16 in crashes. When they modernized 18 of them in the early 1990's, it was the bulk of the remaining fleet !
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True. And it's limited to Sidewinders, so no real forward-attack capability outside AIM-9C model - at least till all-aspect Sidewinders would became available.

Archibald said:
Well ok, let's start from there: bigger wing, Adour Mk.104. Next: a radar in the nose, I think the indian Jaguars got the Super Etendard radar. Which was a derivate of the Mirage F1 Cyrano IV. Which in turn, would allow Matra Super 530F missiles on top of the Magic 2. There was a lot of room in the Jaguar nose, no reason it couldn't get a compact Cyrano radar, if the contemporary F1 and S.E got it.
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That's quite a good idea! Matra Super might be a bit too late, of course, but better late than never.
 
P.S. Just recalled, that OTL Jaguars were suggested to Australia in 1969. So Australia could quite reasonably join the Jaguar project - both as land-based strike aircraft, and carrier-based fighter/strike one.
 
Dilandu said:
True. And it's limited to Sidewinders, so no real forward-attack capability outside AIM-9C model - at least till all-aspect Sidewinders would became available.
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The upgraded Crusaders - F-8P - got Magic 2, all aspect. As for SARH, medium range: they could fire the old and clunky R-530, in IR and radar guided variants.
Getting the F1 Super 530F would be much more complicated as - once again - some kind of Cyrano radar would need to fit inside the Crouze bullet nose.
Well, by 1989 when Hornets were rejected thanks to Dassault Rafale lobbying (sigh) the initial F-8P plan was to graft the Mirage F1 radar and missiles on the old airframe. But it was too complicated and expensive, so the upgrade stopped at IR Magic 2.
 
Archibald said:
The upgraded Crusaders - F-8P - got Magic 2, all aspect.
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Magic-2 appeared only in 1986, i.e. for 1960-1970s timefraime it's not exactly a promising idea.

Archibald said:
As for SARH, medium range: they could fire the old and clunky R-530, in IR and radar guided variants.
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Hm, as far as I know, the French F-8 could not use SARH R-530; they lacked Cyrano radar, which they were designed to operate with. They used only IR R-530 version.
 
Main problem for the Jaguar M was, it was kinda an orphan on both sides of the Channel.
On the british side: no more carriers, so no Jaguar M order.
On the french side: Jaguar was initially Breguet, not Dassault (who got AFVG, bad deal !). Yet despite having won the Jaguar Breguet was sinking, so the french government ordered Dassault to buy and merge them. It took four years (1967-71) and Dassault inherited the Jaguar... which they hated. They scorned it as the proverbial camel, horse designed by a committee. Plus, it competed with the last Mirage III, turned ground attack (the Mirage V and 50) and also the similar, radarless F1A designed for South Africa. So Dassault essentially dumped the Jaguar to the british with no regrets whatsoever.
 
Considering Dassault influence on the french side of the channel, I'd suggest to take the British option. Cherry on the cake, they use Adour Mk.104 - and the Jaguar certainly needed more power.
 
I had Moskva in mind for Indonesia as an appropriate prestige replacement for Irian.
India got a nuclear submarine from Russia much later than your period but might be a possible one.
 
So let's summarize the basic idea; to replace HMAS Melbourne by the late 1970s with a French-build Clemenceau-class derivative, with the aim to have an air group of large-wing Jaguar-M fighters (capable of using the SARH missiles) and likely the venerable A-4 as strike aircraft.

UPD: Just learned from Archibald, that French F-8 were actually refitted to use SARH version of R530, so the situation with deck fighters could be greatly simplified.
 
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@Dilandu You picked my curiosity so I've checked what kind of R530 did the Crusaders carried - and they carried both, literally: one per side ! (unlike the Sidewinders, only two R530 could be carried below the cockpit)
Infrared of course, but also the SARH variant: the APQ-104 radar was adapted to it. Seems it was an upgraded APQ-94 found on the F-8E, which makes sense as the french planes were F-8E with a few goodies, and F-8E were the last "fresh" Crusaders in 1965.

Now back to the Jaguar M : you could easily fit R530s on it with a basic radar, but the price to pay is, they were as bad and unreliable as, say, an AIM-7A-E Sparrow of Vietnam fame. Super 530F is like AIM-7F : the first valuable variant.
 
Archibald said:
@Dilandu You picked my curiosity so I've checked what kind of R530 did the Crusaders carried - and they carried both, literally: one per side ! (unlike the Sidewinders, only two R530 could be carried below the cockpit)
Infrared of course, but also the SARH variant: the APQ-104 radar was adapted to it. Seems it was an upgraded APQ-94 found on the F-8E, which makes sense as the french planes were F-8E with a few goodies, and F-8E were the last "fresh" Crusaders in 1965.
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Hm! I really did not know that! Thanks for the data!

In that case, the situation likely would be much simplified; the RAN could order surplus F-8E from USN reserves, and let the French repair and refit them to use SARH missiles.
 
Some additional info about second generation french carriers.
-After PA58 and PA59 not funded in 1960, that decade is mostly toast, after all Clemenceau and Foch are brand new.
-France return to carriers (which kickstarted the CdG is September 1980, then in February 1986) starts with PH75, in 1970.
-PH75 is a 18 000 tons Invincible / Garibaldi / Asturias lookalike, early on with the F67 frigates propulsion, then going nuclear from 1972.
-Clem and Foch are still young, the one that needs a successor in plain old Arromanches (a half-brother of Sidney and Melbourne !)
-Arromanches (gone early 1974) however is a swiss knife, multipurpose carrier, and so is PH75: hospital, asw, training, assault..
-a full blown Clemenceau / Foch successor (PA75) don't start before September 1980 and inherit PH75 nuclear propulsion. The legacy of two oil shocks that ruined French economic growth (les 30 glorieuses)
-PH75 / PA75 pivot.

So, if you play smart...

-Australia asking for a Clemenceau or PA58 / CdG size carrier (30 000 - 45 000 tons) sometimes in the 1960's could work as some kind of return of (d'uh) PA58 or PA59, lost in 1960.

-Australia asking for a Clemenceau or PA58 / CdG size carrier (30 000 - 45 000 tons) sometimes in the 1970's could accelerate the shift from PH75 to PA75 or simply nix the PH75 entirely. Which may butterfly the shift to nuclear, happened somewhere in 1972-73.

And I swear (@Jemiba ?) that France offered a Clemenceau design carrier to Spain in the 1960's, before they went for Independance-class Dedalo & AV-8A Harriers, in 1967. And SCS Asturias later.
 
Archibald said:
-Australia asking for a Clemenceau or PA58 / CdG size carrier (30 000 - 45 000 tons) sometimes in the 1970's could accelerate the shift from PH75 to PA75 or simply nix the PH75 entirely. Which may butterfly the shift to nuclear, happened somewhere in 1972-73.
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The second scenario is more likely, IMHO. In 1960s Melbourne still have enough life in her, and replacement would start to be seriously considered later.
 
And Melbourne, like Sydney, is Arromanches sistership. So the needs are somewhat converging, with Arromanches retirement early 1974. How about that.
 

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