STRANGE British Flying Things

mrys

mrys

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Cause actually I'am side working with british planes, decided to fit all in one thread. Think, that it will be more friendly for all :)


Hi All!
Since few days I tried to reconstruct strange monoplane of Aerial Wheel Syndicate. It was built in 1912 (but never flew) to compete in the Military Aeroplane Competition which was to be held at Larkhill. Exist one photograph and simple sketch of this plane. Problem is, that sketch (probably oryginal from patent, but didn't saw this paper) only a bit correspond with photograph.
I tried to use some architect programs for dig basic shape and proportion from photograph, but unfortunatelly angle is not very friendly for this work. Here are mine effect for now (still at work) bit different from sketch.
Plane is described in few sources, but I'am not sure if airframe description is based on sketch - then it is not 100% right I think.

But I'am also not so succesful so far. There is not big deal to fit main wheel and propeler theoretical wheel - they fits well, but then many unfited elements start to appear after symmetry is turn on - left side fit, right not so. But still fighting.

Oryginal sketch:
1912 Aerial Wheel Monoplane-3.gif

Mine trials:
Schowek-5.jpg Schowek-6.jpg Schowek-7.jpg Schowek-8.jpg

Second thing - engine. On oryginal sketch is four cylinder inline, but was used NEC 50 hp engine, four cylinder in V.

NEC_50hp.jpg
 
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Hi Marek,
The pilot must be inside the wheel. I think the reasoning is that is wheel is also there to protect the pilot. In those days planes tended to flip over while landing. There were a couple of ideas on how to prevent it, but nothing much was ever used. This idea is quite good, it has a large wheel that will help with landing on rough terrain and it protects the pilot. And it also protect the propeller from direct impact with the ground.
Interesting find.
 
BAROBA said:
Hi Marek,
The pilot must be inside the wheel. I think the reasoning is that is wheel is also there to protect the pilot. In those days planes tended to flip over while landing. There were a couple of ideas on how to prevent it, but nothing much was ever used. This idea is quite good, it has a large wheel that will help with landing on rough terrain and it protects the pilot. And it also protect the propeller from direct impact with the ground.
Interesting find.
Click to expand...
IMO, pilots are evidently just after wheel - it is visible on photo. I marked yellow arrow wheel edge. What you write is logical, but this plane was a bit ... strange:) Proble with this reconstruction was, that teheoretical lines along x, y, z axis, that should be paralel are not. Barn just after plane is correct when using only it for recon, but plane is tilted a bit in all axis. I think also, that structure was not 100% rigid, and some distortions were because of it.
There are two version of why plane was not flying finally: first is that it was so complexed, that its makers was late with asembling it after arrived in box (box dimensions were also defined by competition rules); second is that there was no pilot, who was ready for risk his life on... this :D Probably both versions are right :D
pilots outside.jpg
 
Although there are those trailing skids, at low speed, they'd need a couple of nimble lads holding the wings level...
 
Was this based upon a big-wheel motorcycle?
 

Monowheels: Page 2

Douglas Self, motorwheels, monowheels, monocycles, D'Harlingue
www.douglas-self.com

Thought I'd seen this bizarre creature before...
Scroll down to '1912'...

FWIW, if you venture into rest of site, pack for the weekend. It is amazing...
 

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I made some new estimates - also engines. IMO NEC 50 hp V4 had about 620 mm lenght and 750 mm width. I count this based on this data for cylinder: 101 mm (3.976") bore, 115 mm (4.528") stroke. VERY simple, "blocky" model of engine, byt fit not bad in photo:
NEc1.jpg NEC2.jpg
Next I put engine into plane model - pilots I used and fited to photo, as you can see in my previous posts gave me ability to estimate whole plane dimensions: lenght 6,4 m, span 8,7 m and main wheel diameter 2,53 m. "Official" data are 7,6 m for lenght and 9,1 m for span.

bok2.jpg gora 2.jpg
 
Did you notice the comment on Self site about the wheel being driven ? Not only helps get up to speed, but provides some gyroscopic stability...

Presumably, like a 'jump gyrocopter', there's a clutch for disengaging...
 
Nik said:
Did you notice the comment on Self site about the wheel being driven ? Not only helps get up to speed, but provides some gyroscopic stability...
Click to expand...
Not sure, what site you mean? Lewis and Goodall/Tagg (IMO the only trustworthy sources, but I didn't find this info anywhere) didn't notice that and, to be honest, I realy doubt about. Additional engine? separeted Gear box for wheel? I think, that pilot would be to focused to control engine and plane, trying to save his life and reflect: "what am I doing here?" during start for divide attention for controll also wheel speed. IMO - only propeler was for take off etc. But - who knows - human brain is unknown territory...
 
Another STRANGE Thing at workshop. A.S.L. Monoplane No.2, There is a bit mess with No.1 (pusher, tractor, canard, stndard, was not was, Barber's one, not A.S.L etc). but for No.2 exist two photographs only (as far as I know) so used them. Engine is Green D.4.
Schowek-1.jpg
 
Hello myrs,

Nik is referring to this:

The Self Site by Douglas Self​
​
and specifically this section:
​
​
Both you and Nik seem to have visited the same site, but you may refer to it in different ways.

I am very impressed by the digital analysis and your artwork. Well done!!

Cheers,
Paul
​
 
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I have question about Horatio Barber's Monoplane (1909) built by Wright, and A.S.L. Monoplane No.1, which seems to be the same plane after Barber's attachement to A.S.L. as general director. It is what can be found in most sources. In this version of hisotry it was tractor monoplane with contrarotating, twobladed propelers (!) and was unsuccesfull - exist photograph. But I also found information, that Monoplane No.1 was canard pusher very similar to No.2. It is based on book Flying with the Larks: The Early Aviation Pioneers of Lark Hill by Timothy Brown (2013). I have not this book so cannot interprete it by myself, but feel, that it is misunderstanding and No.1 was really Barbers first plane. Maybe someone have this book and could enlight me a bit?
 
Have you explored the possibility that the wheel is also used for pitch? We can see that the wheel is embedded into the fuselage through a slot. Perhaps, in that slot, there is a mechanism to raise or lower slightly the cabin and attached wing.
The need for demultiplication would justify having such a big wheel that can then double down as a cartwheeling pylon.

Hence when the fuselage move clockwise, pitch is increased on the wing and the plane nose down (the entire airframe, not the fuselage that actually pitch up).
When the fuselage move anticlockwise, the wing pitch down, hence the aircraft nose up.

In that hypothesis, the CG is at the center of the wing with a deported forward canard and a close wing aero center to balance both lifting surfaces.

The major problem is that the sink rate is astronomical compared to the agility and reversed to the intended change of trajectory!

Pendular wings do that better.

Edit: Probably that the entire airframe is intended to move around the wheel. Or just the Canard. The wheel give demultiplication to the pilot.

Edit2:
Ah, stupid me.... Got it now.
The aircraft is balanced when the lift from the front plane equals that of the main wing.
Now, let's imagine that the center of the wheel is at the center of gravity, moving the rear fuselage along the wheel (no change of attitude) decrease the momentum generated by the lift (cosinus is decreasing), hence aircraft pitch up.
On the contrary moving the forward lifting plane along the wing generates a pitch down moment.

That's that simple.

I am not sure it's really practical with all the loads concentrated in sliding liaison and on the rails. But wow, that's a pretty original design worth the attention you poored in and, perhaps a restoration.
Congrats!

IMG_20230429_130221.jpg
 

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TomcatViP said:
Have you explored the possibility that the wheel is also used for pitch?
Click to expand...
If I would build this airplane - I would agree with you. But I only tried draw what I see - not corect designers :) IMO - can be as you say, but we will never know, how far technical knowledge of creators reach. Without documentation we will never know. Shape I reconstruct is far from perfection also - the only photograph is not enough to do more correct reconstruction. The same is with A.S.L. Monoplane No.1, or Barber Monoplane. The only photograph almost perfect from side - what give ability to hand reconstruction but is not enough for digital test. Wire system would be close to No.2, I think.

ASL Monoplane 1 small.JPG
 
For the A.S.L. Monoplane No.1,
mrys said:
If I would build this airplane - I would agree with you. But I only tried draw what I see - not corect designers :) IMO - can be as you say, but we will never know, how far technical knowledge of creators reach. Without documentation we will never know. Shape I reconstruct is far from perfection also - the only photograph is not enough to do more correct reconstruction. The same is with A.S.L. Monoplane No.1, or Barber Monoplane. The only photograph almost perfect from side - what give ability to hand reconstruction but is not enough for digital test. Wire system would be close to No.2, I think.
Click to expand...
do you know if it has contra-rotating propellers?
 
And another story. Aeronca 100 and 300 were licence , british variant of very known C-3. Only one Aeronca 300 was built (G-AEVE) and during the war it was flying in camoulflage as I read. But never found any photograph of this. Anyon found? Also looking for developement variant Ely 700 (two built) with wider fuselage and doubled doors.
 
mrys said:
The same is with A.S.L. Monoplane No.1, or Barber Monoplane. The only photograph almost perfect from side - what give ability to hand reconstruction but is not enough for digital test.
Click to expand...
Can you show us this photograph or the A.S.L. Monoplane No.1/Barber Monoplane ? Or can you show us a link to see this photograph ?
 
Thanks a lot @Schneiderman :)

@mrys :

When you say that the A.S.L. Monoplane No.1/Barber Monoplane was "unsuccessful", you mean it failed to fly ?
Otherwise (I know it's not necessarily the subject of the topic, but I don't think that it's useful to open a new topic for this) :

-on another site, there is a photo of the Howard Wright 1909 biplane. The specs indicate it had contra-rotating propellers, but in its photo, it doesn't...
av8rblog.wordpress.com

Wills’s Aviation Card #56 – “Howard-Wright” Biplane.

History Behind The Card: “Howard-Wright” Biplane. Card #56 of 75, W.D.& H.O Wills, Aviation series Capstan Navy Cut black back 1911 issue Howard Theophilus Wright, circa 1867 in Dudley, England…
av8rblog.wordpress.com av8rblog.wordpress.com

-I searched the Seaton-Kerr biplane on Google search images. There was a lot of results but nothing on the Seaton-Kerr biplane... But (again) as a result, there is a photo of a plane with the title : Howard Wright / Pioneers of aviation. But when I see the page of this photo, the photo is missing...
av8rblog.wordpress.com

Howard Wright – Pioneers Of Aviation

Posts about Howard Wright written by mreman47
av8rblog.wordpress.com av8rblog.wordpress.com
Does anyone know this plane ? (apparently it has contra-rotating propellers, see below)
 

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Deltafan said:
Does anyone know this plane ? (apparently it has contra-rotating propellers, see below)
Click to expand...
That's the COW Biplane No11 second machine for the military trials. 110hp 6-cylinder inline Chenu engine with standard 4-blade propeller. No mention of contra
 
Deltafan said:
av8rblog.wordpress.com

Howard Wright – Pioneers Of Aviation

Posts about Howard Wright written by mreman47
av8rblog.wordpress.com av8rblog.wordpress.com
Does anyone know this plane ? (apparently it has contra-rotating propellers, see below)
Click to expand...

From "English Electric and their Predcessors"

"A four-blade propeller, made from a pair of superimposed two-blade propellers, was fitted, this somewhat unusual arrangement possibly arising from the transport and crating requirements of the Military Trials, although Manning may have considered the economics of being able to replace one two-blade propeller in the event of damage. The only other noticeable changes were the fitting of two short skids behind the undercarriage wheels and skids below the lower wingtips."
 
Deltafan said:
Thanks a lot @Schneiderman :)

@mrys :

When you say that the A.S.L. Monoplane No.1/Barber Monoplane was "unsuccessful", you mean it failed to fly ?
Otherwise (I know it's not necessarily the subject of the topic, but I don't think that it's useful to open a new topic for this) :

-on another site, there is a photo of the Howard Wright 1909 biplane. The specs indicate it had contra-rotating propellers, but in its photo, it doesn't...
av8rblog.wordpress.com

Wills’s Aviation Card #56 – “Howard-Wright” Biplane.

History Behind The Card: “Howard-Wright” Biplane. Card #56 of 75, W.D.& H.O Wills, Aviation series Capstan Navy Cut black back 1911 issue Howard Theophilus Wright, circa 1867 in Dudley, England…
av8rblog.wordpress.com av8rblog.wordpress.com

-I searched the Seaton-Kerr biplane on Google search images. There was a lot of results but nothing on the Seaton-Kerr biplane... But (again) as a result, there is a photo of a plane with the title : Howard Wright / Pioneers of aviation. But when I see the page of this photo, the photo is missing...
av8rblog.wordpress.com

Howard Wright – Pioneers Of Aviation

Posts about Howard Wright written by mreman47
av8rblog.wordpress.com av8rblog.wordpress.com
Does anyone know this plane ? (apparently it has contra-rotating propellers, see below)
Click to expand...
 
mrys said:
If I would build this airplane - I would agree with you. But I only tried draw what I see - not corect designers :) IMO - can be as you say, but we will never know, how far technical knowledge of creators reach. Without documentation we will never know. Shape I reconstruct is far from perfection also - the only photograph is not enough to do more correct reconstruction. The same is with A.S.L. Monoplane No.1, or Barber Monoplane. The only photograph almost perfect from side - what give ability to hand reconstruction but is not enough for digital test. Wire system would be close to No.2, I think.

View attachment 698783
Click to expand...
terryjgrace said:
I have a picture of this aeroplane which shows that initially, it had wing skids fitted' The photo in flight magazine was manipulated to obscure these skids. Barber was keen to protect his patent I think.
Click to expand...
 
again, I havea picture of Barber's 1st aeroplane after the tailfin has been modified and a small additional wing added at the rear
 
mrys said:
Yes, I read it and also noticed gear-teeth, but still think, that it was only for better performance on grass ground. BTW I found in Flight (10.12.1910) picture of Sturgess's model with two wheels :D

View attachment 698647
Click to expand...
Palpatine’s failed attempt to have the Wright brothers build a Hailfire Droid
 
Schneiderman said:
That's the COW Biplane No11 second machine for the military trials. 110hp 6-cylinder inline Chenu engine with standard 4-blade propeller. No mention of contra
Click to expand...
thats right, have seen no ref to contra props. Note also that prop position appear to be 90 degrees to one another , suggesting they rotate in the same direction
 

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