Star Wars, Star Trek and other Sci-Fi

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Leaving aside contemporary political views, I think many people will agree there have been and continue to be sf/f works with politics that are "problematic," by just about any mainstream position, like why there are so many that are hereditary absolute monarchies. To read sf/f, one would think that the future is Kim Jung Un's wet dream.
 
If one wants something that talks about the link between SciFi and exploring real world developments, the following book actually covers it well (it talks about much more than just robots):

51FFpRHQxBL._SX324_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
 
If one wants something that talks about the link between SciFi and exploring real world developments, the following book actually covers it well (it talks about much more than just robots):

51FFpRHQxBL._SX324_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Wired for War? A pathetic book. Anyone with half an interest could've found better with an internet search.

Back to Star Wars. Jar Jar Stinks. An effigy should be made, then hanged, shot and burned.
 
Human societies are generally the grade school playground writ large.

And there's little reason for that to change in the future no matter the technological advancements.
The people/countries who don't realize it are the ones who get burned. Bullies, not kept in check, are gonna bully. As Russia and China's neighbors are beginning to find out.
 
I grew up with the FIRST trilogy, and they defined Star Wars for me. They were was my first Star Wars movies, and boy were they awesome.
I know. I wrote that sentence knowing exactly what I was saying.
My glasses are probably very, very rose-tinted - but you know, they're my glasses.
It is natural that people take as their baselines the things that were there in their formative years. Thus to me Star Wars is defined by the original trilogy, Star Trek by the original series. I shudder to imagine the poor souls for whom "The Force Awakens" and "Star Trek Discovery" are *their* introductions.
 
Here's everything wrong with modern franchises summed up in one video reacting to an official merchandise video. In this case, it's people shilling Marvel comics "gifts," and the guy making fun of them is annoyed because even though he's doing his darndest to parody them, they outdo his best efforts. Shrill screeching, excessive enthusiasm, an apparently complete lack of emotional control over cheap bits of plastic. It's three bad actors who clearly don't actually give a crap about the property playing up excessive emotionalism in order to pretend that they are fans. It's cringeworthy on a scale to rival Star trek Discovery.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU3sRVrBvqw


"Weirdly enough, overplayed fake emotions just make me feel like a Vulcan." I know that feeling: watching the cast of modern Trek giving vent to every passing feeling makes me yearn for a Trek series focusing on the Vulcan Science Academy, written and acted by people who actually understand Trek and Vulcans.
 
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Science-Fiction Christmas's by Frank Kelly Freas...
 

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For information
Netflix has a Japanese film “ The door into summer “ based on the Heinlein novel.
Your mileage may vary.......I gave up on it 30 minutes in.....
 
There seem to be a fair number of sci fi film made for non sci fi fans which is a bit sad.
 
There seem to be a fair number of sci fi film made for non sci fi fans which is a bit sad.
That's one of the major complaints about how Star Trek Discovery has been produced. The writers room was filled with people not only with no record of writing science fiction, but no interest in it. Reportedly, if you expressed interest and knowledge of Star Trek during the interview, you weren't hired; they went for writers who were *not* Star Trek fans. And it shines through in the final product which has been as un-Star Trek in terms of canon, tone and character as could be possible. The conspiratorial explanation is that the producers of STD *want* to destryot Star Trek for cultural or ideological reasons; the less conspiratorial explanation is that they thought that the origianl fans were goign to watch no matter what they did, so they wanted to go after a wholly different set of fans and create a profit-monster. in the end, all indications are tha tthe fnas quickly abandoned it, and the new fans brought on board were minimal.
 
I saw one of the first programs, not sure which one, but quickly decided it was crap and unworthy of the name. Nice to know I'm not the only one. I still hope we can see a decent recovery some day. Breath holding not required.
 
I saw one of the first programs, not sure which one, but quickly decided it was crap and unworthy of the name. Nice to know I'm not the only one. I still hope we can see a decent recovery some day. Breath holding not required.
If you want decent modern Star Trek, there are two options:
1: The Orville. Not *strictly* Star Trek, but it is honestly the best Trek we've seen in decades.
2: Lower Decks. Yes, it's a jokey, crude-humor cartoon. But if you can accept that, it is clearly made by the people rejected by STD and STP: the writers of Lower Decks *clearly* know and love Star Trek.

Star Trek Prodigy might be OK Trek, I've only sene the first episode that they put on YouTube.

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IIRC, Discovery's original showrunner Bryan Fuller (Hannibal, 1st season of American Gods) had planned about five seasons. Each would be set in a different era and have a different hero ship and cast - Discovery-A, -B, -C, etc., just like the Enterprise. However, Fuller went berserk with the budget, which is what he had done with American Gods and which got him forced out of that. He was forced to leave Discovery, the producers realised that a new ship and cast every season would cost ginormous amounts to essentially create a new series from scratch every year, so they stuck with what they had. Then a game of musical chairs went on among the producers, resulting in another new vision of what the series should be. Symptomatic of this, characters were shed in a hurry and the rest were eventually thrust into a 31st-century setting* that may have been taken from Fuller's notes to distinguish it from the upcoming Strange New Worlds.

All of this suggests to me a company - logically - concerned with revenue versus costs and an overall market strategy. Prodigy (for kids), Lower Decks (for adult TNG fans), Picard (?), Discovery (for The CW audiences?), Strange New Worlds (supposedly to be much like TOS), and the proposed Section 31 series (I think this one will have fans complaining the most that it's the anti-Trek) are all carefully and more or less simultaneously aimed at different sectors. Like Disney with Star Wars, and Marvel with the MCU, Paramount is trying to make Star Trek a multi-demographic, multi-platform juggernaut.

That's why I find conspiracy theories about how Paramount wants to destroy Star Trek very unlikely. On the contrary, they want to make shitloads of money and believe that this is simply not viable by catering to the core fans over all the other potential consumers. You don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs; you breed a goose that is nothing but a golden egg layer.

Yes, I wrote 'consumers'.

*Roddenbery had a Spenglerian view of history (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Spengler) with cycles of rise and fall. He planned a series set after the fall of the Federation where the last remnants of the Federation were trying to rebuild. This eventually emerged as Andromeda. Fuller may have been thinking of it as the last season.
 
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"You don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs; you breed a goose that is nothing but a golden egg layer."

I don't know. Given the number of IPs getting killed off in the name of woke it's difficult to believe they even care about money anymore.
 
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That's why I find conspiracy theories about how Paramount wants to destroy Star Trek very unlikely. On the contrary, they want to make shitloads of money and believe that this is simply not viable by catering to the core fans over all the other potential consumers.

I don't know that anyone thinks *Paramount* wants to crap on the Star Trek IP. But it's clear that a lot of the peole involved in writing and producing the show *do.* The Paramount suits are just the useless idiots providing the funding, and now they're stuck. if they ditched the show like they should have after season one of STD, they'd have armies of the usual suspects screeching at them. But they'd also have had the respect of the actual fandom.
 
But they'd also have had the respect of the actual fandom.
That's not a factor in their calculations. They'd see exclusive appeal to a small group as a guarantee of lost investment.

Mind you,

Reportedly, if you expressed interest and knowledge of Star Trek during the interview, you weren't hired; they went for writers who were *not* Star Trek fans. And it shines through in the final product which has been as un-Star Trek in terms of canon, tone and character as could be possible.

Completely plausible. Every new iteration sees to be surrounded by hype along the lines of 'It's not just for Trekkies!' with the result being as you say.
 
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"You don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs; you breed a goose that is nothing but a golden egg layer."

I don't know. Given the number of IPs getting killed off in the name of woke it's difficult to believe they even care about money anymore.
True in many cases indeed. But unlike some IPs, I think that they think that ST is big enough and malleable enough to shape to any fashion. Hence the crew of what the Reverend Spooner would call shining wits that are the target audience's avatars.
 
But they'd also have had the respect of the actual fandom.
That's not a factor in their calculations. They'd see exclusive appeal to a small group as a guarantee of lost investment.

Mind you,

Reportedly, if you expressed interest and knowledge of Star Trek during the interview, you weren't hired; they went for writers who were *not* Star Trek fans. And it shines through in the final product which has been as un-Star Trek in terms of canon, tone and character as could be possible.

Completely plausible. Every new iteration sees to be surrounded by hype along the lines of 'It's not just for Trekkies!' with the result being as you say.

It's not remotely true.

"Are you interested in Star Trek?"

"Not really, I just directed Wrath of Khan."

lol

I've never seen Discovery but looking at the analytics is interesting, it's probably more popular than anyone here suspects with young women. A lot of the writers who aren't Star Trek veterans came from CW shows.

The ultimate problem with Star Trek is that there are 800+ episodes and however many movies. This is great if you're doing an animated comedy that relies on references but makes "serious" writing much more difficult since you're always treading the thin line between rehash and something too different.
 
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It's not remotely true.

"Are you interested in Star Trek?"

"Not really, I just directed Wrath of Khan."

Meyer has written zero episodes of STD.

In contrast, the first episode of Season 4 of STD was written by one Michelle Paradise, who has written seven episodes of STD. Her writing credits, of which there are 8 including STD, includes no science fiction. Meyer, when he got the job for STII, dove head-first into the available canon and lore and produced arguably the best of the Trek movies by actually giving a ᛋᚻᛁᛏ.


The ultimate problem with Star Trek is that there are 800+ episodes and however many movies. This is great if you're doing an animated comedy that relies on references but makes "serious" writing much more difficult since you're always treading the thin line between rehash and something too different.

Not even remotely true. Star Trek is an entire universe. Even halfway decent writers could produce a nearly infinite number of stories there. If your show was set not in the 23rd century Alpha Quadrant, but in the 19th century Old West, and you were told you weren't allowed to change history by having Billy The Kid assassinate the President and install himself as God Emperor of North America, could you write a large number of stories in that context while remaining faithful to the established world? The writers of "Gunsmoke" seemed to do ok, having 635 episodes over twenty years. In a different medium, the writers of the "Judge Dredd" comic book seem to have done OK, having Odin knows how many issues over the past 44 years or so, all while having time actually progress forward by the same amount (Dredd is now kinda elderly, apparently).

"Boo hoo I have to color within the lines" is a complaint of *hack* writers, not good ones. Rules and constraints and limits are limits only on the talent of the writers.

Potentially a problem for STD was the bizarre decision to set the show as a prequel to the original series. A prequel series had *already* been done; what the fans wanted was a series that pushed the story forward, rather than filling in gaps. But the STD writers and designers got around that little problem by paying so little attention to what had gone before that there is no possible way to square STD with the original series or any of the series that came after. The Klingons are fundamentally different; they simply are not the Klingons that had been *very* well defined. When STD introduced the USS Enterprise, they not only changed the design, they made the thing thirty percent bigger, because of course they did. The writers turned Section 31 from a tiny group of extremely competent and stealthy operators into an entire *fleet.* They took the established canon that "there has never been a mutiny in Starfleet" and in episode one made the main character into a worlds-famous Starfleet mutineer... who was also Spocks humans sister who nobody has ever mentioned. they didn't even *try* to fit STD into Star Trek, they just *claim* that they did.

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It's not remotely true.

"Are you interested in Star Trek?"

"Not really, I just directed Wrath of Khan."

Meyer has written zero episodes of STD.

No, he was a consulting producer, which is a senior writing position.

In contrast, the first episode of Season 4 of STD was written by one Michelle Paradise, who has written seven episodes of STD. Her writing credits, of which there are 8 including STD, includes no science fiction. Meyer, when he got the job for STII, dove head-first into the available canon and lore and produced arguably the best of the Trek movies by actually giving a ᛋᚻᛁᛏ.

And the second episode of Season 4 was written by the writer of one of the best episodes of Battlestar Galactica. A quick perusal of other Discovery writers includes Joe Menowsky, who wrote "Darmok" and is an executive producer on BOTH Discovery and the Orville, superfan Akiva Goldsman, and a woman named after a TOS character.

Not to mention Jonathan Frakes is quite an odd choice in directors if you're trying to keep people connected from Star Trek (or Orville!) away from the show.

Most likely you're overestimating the individual writer's control in a show like this. They don't come up with the characters, plot, or story even if they have credits, just the details.

The ultimate problem with Star Trek is that there are 800+ episodes and however many movies. This is great if you're doing an animated comedy that relies on references but makes "serious" writing much more difficult since you're always treading the thin line between rehash and something too different.

Not even remotely true. Star Trek is an entire universe. Even halfway decent writers could produce a nearly infinite number of stories there.

Nobody cares about most of the Star Trek universe. It's just where the characters live, and these characters must act in a certain way for it to remain Star Trek. Both Discovery and Orville fail in this.

The writers of "Gunsmoke" seemed to do ok, having 635 episodes over twenty years.

The first few years written mostly by Meston were ok, by the end they were filing the serial numbers off his old radio shows. Dredd of course has varied wildly in quality, and at times has been almost literally unreadable.

"Boo hoo I have to color within the lines" is a complaint of *hack* writers, not good ones. Rules and constraints and limits are limits only on the talent of the writers.

The "lines" are dollars. Older Star Trek is Star Trek because of rules set by its budget. An episodic series with an ensemble cast and 22-26 episodes per season. Since you have a large number of episodes on a limited season budget, you get quite a few small-scale filler episodes that are really where Star Trek and its characters shine. If the story's bad you just move on, and a LOT of Star Trek is bad and always has been.

Discovery is completely different, it's run as a modern serialized prestige show. There are few episodes per season, each with a high budget. You need tight focus on the main plot, which is always epic and high-stakes. If the story's bad you're stuck with it unless you make awkward changes and drop plots mid-show.

The Klingons are fundamentally different; they simply are not the Klingons that had been *very* well defined.

Klingons gradually became a parody of themselves during and after TNG anyway.

When STD introduced the USS Enterprise, they not only changed the design, they made the thing thirty percent bigger, because of course they did.

They changed the design of the Enterprise??? I feel nauseous.

established canon that "there has never been a mutiny in Starfleet"

Spock actually said there was "absolutely no record of such an occurrence." No doubt he chose his words very carefully since he participated in two mutinies in the first season.

Discovery is probably bad but it's bad because the guy behind Hercules and Xena made a couple of billion dollars writing Transformers movies, ended up writing the Star Trek reboot, and naturally the worst US network brought him on to turn Star Trek into a "serious" prestige show so they'd have a flagship for their streaming service, not because someone's trying to destroy Star Trek. Most likely there are a lot of people who genuinely love Star Trek working on the show. They're beholden to people who are risk-averse and experienced at watered-down crap with broad appeal. Les Moonves, who really pushed Discovery before he got fired, could care less about Star Trek, being woke, or anything else besides massive amounts of money and he knew how to make it.


When I was a kid I had a book called The Nit-Picker's Guide to Star Trek or something but I always forget how seriously people take this stuff.
 
I have always accepted that viewing habits change over time and any show expecting to keep going has to understand this. I spent some time on a Trek forum a hack of a long time ago, about the time there were even death threats to a certain duo who very influential on the direct ST was going in. I wrote a thread that the mod renamed "Optimism, Captain". I watched it for a while and never went back because I had said what I had to say and did not need to go further.

As a Trekkie I believed that part of the foundation was universal acceptance of those around us and I took this seriously, I still do. I then came across an interview with one of the STG cast and he said he was fond of those who he saw as 'Living the physolophy', he then added a caveat. "Trekkers, NOT Trekkies". That was the first time I had heard of division which at first made me wonder how people could be so short sighted. Profess to be someone believing in universal acceptance and then stating a variation, weird to me at least.

There is a new channel available on Amazon prime which is one of the new shows but, whatever. Still waiting for something I can call Trek and available widely rather than a few specialised channels. Arguments and two separate franchises aside I shall have to keep going around and around. I can get the cartoon Lower Decks and the other thing I cannot remember so I have to go and have a look. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction OBB.
 
Not to mention Jonathan Frakes is quite an odd choice in directors if you're trying to keep people connected from Star Trek (or Orville!) away from the show.

Directors aren't writers, and don't establish the direction of the show. Early on, STD was made into "Star Trek: Emotional Validation." I doubt Frakes or anyone else could direct an episode where all of a sudden, out of the blue, the bridge crew of the Discovery all manned the frak up and were serious professionals rather than the whiny crybabies they've been consistently depicted as.

Nobody cares about most of the Star Trek universe. It's just where the characters live, and these characters must act in a certain way for it to remain Star Trek. Both Discovery and Orville fail in this.

You'd be surprised what people could be interested in. Star Trek need not be about the bridge crew of a Starfleet vessel. DS9 moved away from that somewhat and became the best of the series apart from TOS. A *lot* of people have been demanding a Klingons-based series.

Klingons gradually became a parody of themselves during and after TNG anyway.

Disagree.


They changed the design of the Enterprise??? I feel nauseous.

They changed it a *lot.* Some years ago, after the STD-prise was introduced, a fan using nothing but his own PC showed what they *could* have done had they given a damn, and had they been more interested in respecting the franchise than in stamping their own mark of nonsense on it:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQHvhuNXvV0



established canon that "there has never been a mutiny in Starfleet"

Spock actually said there was "absolutely no record of such an occurrence." No doubt he chose his words very carefully since he participated in two mutinies in the first season.


According to STD, Burnham's mutiny was Big News, since she started a war that somehow escaped notice in all the "subsequent" Star Trek series. In the STD timeline, the Klingorks manage to wipe out, what, 2/3 of the population of the Federation in a few months, using cloaking devices that, ten years later, the Romulans invented and that nobody had ever heard of before? It would be as if after Jack Ruby capped Lee Harvey Oswald, the US declared war on the USSR because Oswald was a commie. A hundred million Americans die in the Oswald War, and ten years later the United States is not only perfectly fine and currently settling colonies on Mars and exploring out past Pluto, nobody seems to remember the war... and there are absolutely no records of President Kennedy getting shot.
 
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