Spruance-Based AEGIS Destroyer (DD 999)

May be. But you chose to present your artworks here for comparisons sake so people here could compare the available space on the bow of the Kidd, Spruance and Ticonderoga classes, while the artworks are not actually accurate in that regard. If you choose to not do thorougly check the available sources for your drawings, that's fine, they are just artwork after all. But when you present them like this, as actual information in an interesting discussion, you are actively spreading disinformation on the internet with them. Please don't do that.

Consider them artist impressions or make them accurate. Please. Because in this case I spotted it because I studied these ships, but another time somebody takes wrongs like these as the truth because no better information is available to them.
Whilst I understand the point you are making, I have to say, considering all of the hard work that Tzoli puts into his artwork and his seemingly encyclopaediac knowledge I think you are being somewhat harsh.

Just an observation
 
Regarding the Kidds, I do not believe they were dimensionally any different from the Spruances, though there may be minor changes in things like bow coamings.*

However, they do have significantly enlarged refrigeration and air conditioning systems due to their planned operating environment. (the Spruances were designed mainly for the North Atlantic). And they gained a lot of weight over their service lives, especially with New Threat Upgrade. By the time the RAN was looking at them, there was insufficient margin for the full VLS fit like a Ticos or even the 61-cell block forward like the VLS Spruances. As I recall from the trade press at the time, the most likely RAN VLS refit would have been 80 cells (32+48). In hindsight, the aft block might well have been Tactical rather than Strike Length due to height issues.

* That's why the Ticos are nominally longer OA than the Spruances -- the bow coaming is extended to provide more reserve buoyancy, offsetting their increased displacement.
 
Whilst I understand the point you are making, I have to say, considering all of the hard work that Tzoli puts into his artwork and his seemingly encyclopaediac knowledge I think you are being somewhat harsh.

Just an observation
He might be slightly undiplomatic in his remarks, but he's absolutely correct in the facts of his critisism.

The basic structure of the ships, including their superstructure size and location of all major components such a weapons and drives, was identical.
 
Tzoli, may I know your references for the Kidd superstructure being longer on a shorter hull then the basic Spruance? Also the gun being further forwards? Before we make any assumptions based on size of things based on them, let's make sure they are accurate.
Looks to me more like the superstructure is about the same length, but is moved forward a bit on the Kidd plan... along with the gun.
 
I apologise if I am being too harsh. However my intention was to be harsh. Tzoli's drawings are something that "rivals" shipbucket style as images that allow for comparison of ships in a standardised style. It is amazing that Tzoli can do that on his own. And having knowledge is great, especially when sharing that knowledge.

But when you share information while knowing it is wrong, having knowledge becomes the curse of responsibility. I would not have said a word about these drawings (even if there are many more errors on them) if they were not suggested to be used for something they cannot be used for.
 
If we accept the U.S. General Accounting Office's argument that no escort warship has more than one 5"/54 gun (U.S. General Accounting Office, 1980, pp. 9, 14), then perhaps the Spruances' aft gun turret could be removed and the Mark 29 Sea Sparrow GMLS relocated to the former turret position to make room for the projected aft Mark 26 Standard-MR / ASROC GMLS. Since the Spruances and Kidds have mostly the same internal arrangement as explained on this thread, a similar conversion could be done with the Kidds by replacing the aft gun turret with the added Mark 29. The removal and replacement of the gun turret with an 8-cell SAM launcher would be similar to the Italian Navy's modernization of its Audace class DDGs.
 
If we accept the U.S. General Accounting Office's argument that no escort warship has more than one 5"/54 gun (U.S. General Accounting Office, 1980, pp. 9, 14), then perhaps the Spruances' aft gun turret could be removed and the Mark 29 Sea Sparrow GMLS relocated to the former turret position to make room for the projected aft Mark 26 Standard-MR / ASROC GMLS. Since the Spruances and Kidds have mostly the same internal arrangement as explained on this thread, a similar conversion could be done with the Kidds by replacing the aft gun turret with the added Mark 29. The removal and replacement of the gun turret with an 8-cell SAM launcher would be similar to the Italian Navy's modernization of its Audace class DDGs.

That report is missing one key word. Everywhere they say "escort" they really mean "ocean escort." That's the Navy's term for destroyer escorts/frigates and the reserve FRAM DDs that were no longer viable as Battle Force Escorts. So when they talk about no escorts having more than one gun, they are talking about the Brooke, Garcia, Knox, and Perry classes.

Also, note that the Mk 29 in the Spruances class has no deck penetration, so relocating it does not give you any room in which to install VLS. It would have been perfectly feasible (and more likely, IMO) to relocate the Mk 29 to the hangar roof, as planned for the DDHs.
 
That report is missing one key word. Everywhere they say "escort" they really mean "ocean escort." That's the Navy's term for destroyer escorts/frigates and the reserve FRAM DDs that were no longer viable as Battle Force Escorts. So when they talk about no escorts having more than one gun, they are talking about the Brooke, Garcia, Knox, and Perry classes.

Also, note that the Mk 29 in the Spruances class has no deck penetration, so relocating it does not give you any room in which to install VLS. It would have been perfectly feasible (and more likely, IMO) to relocate the Mk 29 to the hangar roof, as planned for the DDHs.
I believe you and acelanceloet have explained that the Spruance modernization plans were to install the aft 44-missile Mark 26 Mod 1 GMLS, not the Mark 41 VLS.

If the Spruances did have space for the 61- / 64-cell Mark 41 VLS as speculated by me and ancelanceloet, they would likely be the shorter tactical-length VLS, although it would stretch the Spruances' available weight margin.
 
Sorry, yes, Mk 26 aft was in the AAW conversion plan. But if you're doing that, why keep Mk 29? No USN ship ever had both.
 
Everywhere they say "escort" they really mean "ocean escort." That's the Navy's term for destroyer escorts/frigates and the reserve FRAM DDs that were no longer viable as Battle Force Escorts. So when they talk about no escorts having more than one gun, they are talking about the Brooke, Garcia, Knox, and Perry classes.

My copy of the 1973-74 Jane's Fighting Ships lists USN "escort ships" as either "Surface Combatants (DDs, DDGs, DLGs*, DLGN*s, CLGs, CGs, CGN) or "Ocean Escorts (Bronstein, Brooke, Garcia, Knox, and Perry classes along with the Claud Jones, Dealy/Courtney, and WW2 DE classes).

Note that it also lists all of the converted/modernized (and unmodernized) WW2 destroyers (Fletcher, Sumner, and Gearing classes) as "Surface Combatants"!

The "Ocean Escorts" also had top speeds under 30 knots, while the "Surface Combatants" equaled or exceeded the official 33 knot speed of the carriers.

The battleships and heavy cruisers (including Boston & Canberra) are listed as "Fire Support Ships" - along with various rocket or gun-armed small amphibious ships etc.


* the larger DLGs and all DLGNs were redesignated as cruisers (CG, CGN) in June 1975.
 
I really like the idea of separating frontline BFCs from second line convoy escorts. If the US fleet was more diverse, we should bring it back. Instead, the large surface combatant fleet is becoming increasingly homogenous.
 
I really like the idea of separating frontline BFCs from second line convoy escorts. If the US fleet was more diverse, we should bring it back. Instead, the large surface combatant fleet is becoming increasingly homogenous.
Indeed.
The USN have 3 major surface combatant classes the Ticonderoga class cruisers which are slowly fasing out, the 3 Zumwalts and the a ton of Arleigh Burke class Destroyers which have a new version every 10 years or so. 2 Carrier classes out of which the nimitzes are slowly phasing out. And one new escort the Independence class frigates which are under construction. That is very small number of classes.
 
e Independence class frigates

Constellation Class.

There are also the two LCS classes: Independence and Freedom. In terms of design effort, those probably tied up the equivalent of at least one major combatant class
 
Ahh yes, sorry. Are the LCS's are closer to frigates or to Corvettes?
 
Ahh yes, sorry. Are the LCS's are closer to frigates or to Corvettes?

The USN seriously considered redesignating them as frigates a few years ago, and they displace about as much as the old Garcia class FFs. Beyond that, there's no arbitrary standard.
 
Ahh yes, sorry. Are the LCS's are closer to frigates or to Corvettes?
Neither really. They fill a very different niche compared to either corvettes or frigates. A new designation was justified.
 
I really like the idea of separating frontline BFCs from second line convoy escorts. If the US fleet was more diverse, we should bring it back. Instead, the large surface combatant fleet is becoming increasingly homogenous.
The USN consciously decided in the late 1980s that it was more cost effective to use obsolescent first-line combatants in second-line roles than build dedicated second-line combatants. It saves on mid-life refits for both groups of ships as the threat develops.
 
The USN consciously decided in the late 1980s that it was more cost effective to use obsolescent first-line combatants in second-line roles than build dedicated second-line combatants. It saves on mid-life refits for both groups of ships as the threat develops.
And honestly, I think I agree with that concept.

Flights 1 and 2 Burkes are now the second line convoy escorts, while Flight 2A and 3 Burkes are first line carrier escorts.
 
And honestly, I think I agree with that concept.

Flights 1 and 2 Burkes are now the second line convoy escorts, while Flight 2A and 3 Burkes are first line carrier escorts.
The concept has been disproven. We now know that a fleet consisting solely of BFCs (or ships that originally entered in as BFCs) is a logistical nightmare to maintain.

This is essentially what happened after the Short-Hull Perrys left the fleet, but before the LCSs began deploying. There’s simply not enough hulls to go around, manpower requirements dramatically increase, operating costs go up exponentially, and you have to send Burkes to hunt pirates.

The solution for the all Burke fleet was the FFG(X) program. Those hulls are cheaper, can be produced in larger numbers, and are not overkill for the pirate mission. Point is, low-end missions can only be efficiently done by low-end ships. SCFRS reached some very silly conclusions.
 
The concept has been disproven. We now know that a fleet consisting solely of BFCs (or ships that originally entered in as BFCs) is a logistical nightmare to maintain.

This is essentially what happened after the Short-Hull Perrys left the fleet, but before the LCSs began deploying. There’s simply not enough hulls to go around, manpower requirements dramatically increase, operating costs go up exponentially, and you have to send Burkes to hunt pirates.

The solution for the all Burke fleet was the FFG(X) program. Those hulls are cheaper, can be produced in larger numbers, and are not overkill for the pirate mission. Point is, low-end missions can only be efficiently done by low-end ships. SCFRS reached some very silly conclusions.
It's a logistical nightmare because Congress absolutely gutted the Naval shipyards in the 1990s, and never paid to increase the capacity of the shipyards remaining.
 
The concept has been disproven. We now know that a fleet consisting solely of BFCs (or ships that originally entered in as BFCs) is a logistical nightmare to maintain.

This is essentially what happened after the Short-Hull Perrys left the fleet, but before the LCSs began deploying. There’s simply not enough hulls to go around, manpower requirements dramatically increase, operating costs go up exponentially, and you have to send Burkes to hunt pirates.

The solution for the all Burke fleet was the FFG(X) program. Those hulls are cheaper, can be produced in larger numbers, and are not overkill for the pirate mission. Point is, low-end missions can only be efficiently done by low-end ships. SCFRS reached some very silly conclusions.
The concept of relegating old BFCs to 2nd line tasks was never properly done, because the USN divested itself of the older (for the 90s) BFCs too soon: Spruance/Kidd and the NTU-upgraded former DLG/DLGNs and CGNs. OK maybe the CGNs/DLGNs were always gonna go due to the cost of nuclear power, and the steam DLGs were probably on borrowed time too since it seemed the USN wanted to remove all non-gas turbine BFCs. Prematurely disposing of so many still usable for second-line role BFCs AND the actual second-liners like the Perrys, combined with the aforementioned gutting of the shipyards in the name of the "piss dividend" mentioned by Scott Kenny, and the losses to industry from the mismanagement of everything from SC21-onward culminating in Zumwalt and LCS, ensured that the Ticonderogas and Burkes (which were all still meant to be primary BFCs) would have to carry not just a bigger burden, but do it for far longer than they should have had. Now the US is paying the price for that.

Edit: Re: FFG(X), the program is not turning out to be cheaper or produced any faster than the Burkes, although thats partly because the first samples are being built by a yard and workforce starting from scratch. They can't really be called "cheap" or second-line given their capabilities, but that's because frankly the USN cannot afford to spend money on truly low-end ships anymore given the emergence of a quantitative, if not qualitative, peer adversary in the PLAN.
 
The concept of relegating old BFCs to 2nd line tasks was never properly done, because the USN divested itself of the older (for the 90s) BFCs too soon: Spruance/Kidd and the NTU-upgraded former DLG/DLGNs and CGNs.
Prematurely disposing of so many still usable for second-line role BFCs AND the actual second-liners like the Perrys
Except for the DLGs, all the Cold War BFCs have been replaced virtually 1:1. So even if we were left with 50 Burkes and 31 Spruances, you’re still in the same situation we are today, too many current or former BFCs. The Flexible Transition plans fails to acknowledge that even though relative capability may decrease with time, operating costs remain the same, if not increase.

Now let’s say we still built 80-something Burkes, kept all 31 Spruances for 45 years. We have plenty of hulls to go around, but can we maintain that? Operating costs, manpower limitations, and shipyard capacity would be stretched to the limit.
 
Operating costs, manpower limitations, and shipyard capacity would be stretched to the limit.
Thats before getting into the two points of...

A, The Spruance were always primarly ASW focus and had fuck all for AAW. Which as seen by the last decade.

IS NEEDED BY ALL PATROL TYPES After the Mason shot down 4 missiles. The Spraunce AA sucked and is doubtful, unless they did a DEEP MOD, that they could have stop from getting hit like the Burkes could. Hell that was the whole reason the Zumwalts were what they were, Spraunce Replacement that could do AAW half decently.


B) Does not fix today issues. The USS Hayler, was commission in 1983.
41 years ago.
With the Next youngest, thd Fletcher and her batchmates being 1980, 44 years ago.

So even Assuming they got zero time refits, and their MASSIVE corrosion issues* being a none issue...

By 2015 ALL of them be needing to retire in the near term cause they be Dock queens due to all the maintenance. Thats just a fact of over 30 year old ships. Unless you tear them down to the frames you better off buying new.

With the Shipyard issues we are having today not being fixed at all. And may even been worse due to Congress not wanting to buy new ship effect being strong cause we had so many. Resulting in even more issues now.

Basically keeping the Spraunces would not solve shit.


*The Spraunce, Kidds, and Ticos all have this issue from having steel hulls and aluminum superstructure. Basically cause a nasty case of Galivent Corrosion and was part of the reason why the Spruances got retired so fast, Basically gave them the maintenance cost of a 40 year old ship. The other two subtypes got improvements bases on the Spruances experiences but even then it was still enough of an issues that all following ships had same metal hulls and structures if not a fancy nonmetal deal like the furst 2 Zumwalts, tge third got a steel superstructure.
 
Thats before getting into the two points of...

A, The Spruance were always primarly ASW focus and had fuck all for AAW. Which as seen by the last decade.

IS NEEDED BY ALL PATROL TYPES After the Mason shot down 4 missiles. The Spraunce AA sucked and is doubtful, unless they did a DEEP MOD, that they could have stop from getting hit like the Burkes could. Hell that was the whole reason the Zumwalts were what they were, Spraunce Replacement that could do AAW half decently.


B) Does not fix today issues. The USS Hayler, was commission in 1983.
41 years ago.
With the Next youngest, thd Fletcher and her batchmates being 1980, 44 years ago.

So even Assuming they got zero time refits, and their MASSIVE corrosion issues* being a none issue...

By 2015 ALL of them be needing to retire in the near term cause they be Dock queens due to all the maintenance. Thats just a fact of over 30 year old ships. Unless you tear them down to the frames you better off buying new.

With the Shipyard issues we are having today not being fixed at all. And may even been worse due to Congress not wanting to buy new ship effect being strong cause we had so many. Resulting in even more issues now.

Basically keeping the Spraunces would not solve shit.


*The Spraunce, Kidds, and Ticos all have this issue from having steel hulls and aluminum superstructure. Basically cause a nasty case of Galivent Corrosion and was part of the reason why the Spruances got retired so fast, Basically gave them the maintenance cost of a 40 year old ship. The other two subtypes got improvements bases on the Spruances experiences but even then it was still enough of an issues that all following ships had same metal hulls and structures if not a fancy nonmetal deal like the furst 2 Zumwalts, tge third got a steel superstructure.
1) The need for substantive AAW for even "low risk"/"second-line" tasks seems to be a recent development, and arguably one that is geographically peculiar to the Red Sea and Persian Gulf since there, non-state actors are gaining access to sophisticated missile and drone weapons - and given the importance of those waterways probably can't be called a "second-line" task anyway. Spruance type air defense was and probably remains perfectly adequate for quiet theatres like the Caribbean, where the most peculiar target set seems to be cartel semi- or full submersibles.

2) Please don't misconstrue the idea of keeping the Spruances and older (again, in the context of 90s) BFCs to mean keeping them to the present day i.e. 2024. Of course keeping them for 44+ years, given the long-term issues you mentioned, would be madness. But 2015 is almost as far away from 2024 as 2015 was from 2005, when the last Spruances left. Spruance herself reached 32yrs and the other ships built til 1977-1978 more or less reached 27 or so years, but the ships built from 1978-1983 were in many cases indeed prematurely decommissioned, with Hayler herself being just 20yrs old upon retirement. Keeping some of these ships to a thirty or so year life span to 2015 would've been possible, and would have at least reduced the burdens on the hulls that did take up patrols IRL.

3) The problems with the shipyards, sustainment, manpower and wear and tear seem to be indicative of deeper issues, particularly of the politicians not understanding what it actually takes to sustain a strong naval force and naval presence long-term, and chasing shorter-term cuts and gains, all the while maintaining or even expanding the USN's operational commitments to the point that the US did and does waste BFCs on boondocks patrols as well as critical presence missions in Europe, Indo-Pacific and Red Sea/Persian Gulf, instead of cutting the quiet patrols out altogether or giving that job to the USCG.

Except for the DLGs, all the Cold War BFCs have been replaced virtually 1:1. So even if we were left with 50 Burkes and 31 Spruances, you’re still in the same situation we are today, too many current or former BFCs. The Flexible Transition plans fails to acknowledge that even though relative capability may decrease with time, operating costs remain the same, if not increase.
Now let’s say we still built 80-something Burkes, kept all 31 Spruances for 45 years. We have plenty of hulls to go around, but can we maintain that? Operating costs, manpower limitations, and shipyard capacity would be stretched to the limit.


Yes, costs will increase over time for an all BFC force, but that's just the price to be paid to maintain a strong global presence. If the needed hulls are too many for the budget/manpower/shipyard capacity, then the correct answer is to expand this capacity to ensure the hulls can be used to maintain commitments. Or you slash those commitments if the sticker prices are that concerning.
 
1) The need for substantive AAW for even "low risk"/"second-line" tasks seems to be a recent development, and arguably one that is geographically peculiar to the Red Sea and Persian Gulf since there, non-state actors are gaining access to sophisticated missile and drone weapons - and given the importance of those waterways probably can't be called a "second-line" task anyway.
In what world could the Red Sea be labeled as "frontline?" The BFCs were always supposed to be carrier escorts, the ones leading the push into the Barents Sea. You know, with the entire Northern Fleet bearing down on them, where 90+ cells and AEGIS is the bare minimum for survival.
Whereas the Houthis are shooting a few dozen Iranian missiles, which are knockoffs of the Chinese C-802s, which are knockoffs of the French Exocet, which was obsolete a full decade ago. Hell, they can't even reliably hit merchant traffic. The only thing "high-end" about the current operations is the number of required munitions. Further, without any reliable way to shoot Standard ERs off the Spruances, they'd be virtually useless for operations in the Red Sea. No matter which way you cut it, Spruance retirement was a good thing. And I say that as someone who loves the Cold War Navy.

Yes, costs will increase over time for an all BFC force, but that's just the price to be paid to maintain a strong global presence. If the needed hulls are too many for the budget/manpower/shipyard capacity, then the correct answer is to expand this capacity to ensure the hulls can be used to maintain commitments. Or you slash those commitments if the sticker prices are that concerning.
Question. What can a Spruance do that a Burke can't? Burkes have AEGIS, more cells, CEC, most have a TA, most have full aviation facilities, etc. The only notable thing the Spruances have is the single large hanger instead of the two small ones. If the Spruances don't offer any additional benefits, and actually offer a net loss in capability, what is the point in retaining them over buying replacements? Especially when they have the same high operating cost?
 
Question. What can a Spruance do that a Burke can't? Burkes have AEGIS, more cells, CEC, most have a TA, most have full aviation facilities, etc. The only notable thing the Spruances have is the single large hanger instead of the two small ones. If the Spruances don't offer any additional benefits, and actually offer a net loss in capability, what is the point in retaining them over buying replacements? Especially when they have the same high operating cost?
Retaining Sprucans means you aren't tying up the build ways with their replacements yet, so you can grow the fleet to what Congress is demanding the USN support.
 
In what world could the Red Sea be labeled as "frontline?" The BFCs were always supposed to be carrier escorts, the ones leading the push into the Barents Sea. You know, with the entire Northern Fleet bearing down on them, where 90+ cells and AEGIS is the bare minimum for survival.
Whereas the Houthis are shooting a few dozen Iranian missiles, which are knockoffs of the Chinese C-802s, which are knockoffs of the French Exocet, which was obsolete a full decade ago. Hell, they can't even reliably hit merchant traffic. The only thing "high-end" about the current operations is the number of required munitions. Further, without any reliable way to shoot Standard ERs off the Spruances, they'd be virtually useless for operations in the Red Sea. No matter which way you cut it, Spruance retirement was a good thing. And I say that as someone who loves the Cold War Navy.

Reread the entirety of the post; I am not proposing or endorsing keeping the Spruances into the 2020s, let alone sending them into the Red Sea to face the threat today.

Re: Red Sea 2023-present; C-802 knockoffs aren't the only threats to be faced, with assorted aerial drones and ballistic missiles having been fired and intercepted as well. Its definitely not USSR or modern PRC-representative threat capability and hasn't killed or destroyed as many as the Houthis have hoped, but it definitely isn't the popular perception of a "quiet" or "second-line" theatre where the threat is either non-existent or an underfunded African/Latin American/Southeast Asian air and missile presence that could be suppressed easily enough.

if anything, this, and Firefinder's post, further makes problematic the earlier proposition that what's needed in lieu of an all-Aegis high-end fleet is a reduced version of that fleet + "low-end ships" to replace the older members of the Aegis classes. Large-volume and consistent production of high-end ships to ensure continual replacement and availability is what should have been happening, instead of the stop-start that happened in the 2000s and 2010s.

Question. What can a Spruance do that a Burke can't? Burkes have AEGIS, more cells, CEC, most have a TA, most have full aviation facilities, etc. The only notable thing the Spruances have is the single large hanger instead of the two small ones. If the Spruances don't offer any additional benefits, and actually offer a net loss in capability, what is the point in retaining them over buying replacements? Especially when they have the same high operating cost?

Once more with feeling: I did not call to keep the Spruances to keep BFC numbers up NOW IN 2024.

I was talking about how if one wants a large number of BFCs (note I didn't say specific classes, just BFC generically) to meet desired commitments, one has to accept the cost associated with keeping and maintaining that force size. It goes without saying that ideally that would include building replacements, and arguably, given the increased commitments, the force needs expansion. But since the replacement/supplement programs either failed (Zumwalt, CG(X) and the rest of SC21) or are taking much longer to happen (DDG(X) AND FFG(X)), the USN has little recourse but to maintain older members of the Burke class for longer in the meantime and keep Flight III of that class in production. They will just have to accept the maintenance costs that come with that, or tell the US Government already to stop committing them to ancillary theatres.
 
Retaining Sprucans means you aren't tying up the build ways with their replacements yet, so you can grow the fleet to what Congress is demanding the USN support.
Except that by the time Congress Started saying Grow!

Was like 2015 2017 after over 20 years of Saying Shrink.

I know that for a damn fact cause I spent from the Summer of 09 to 11 trying to join the navy and after 20 months of phone tag and walking the Recruiter point blank told me I couldn't join cause they was at 99.5 percent force and the last bit was for officers, pilots, or jobs I had no ability in cause Congress was trying to shrink the force some more. So the Waiver I needed to get in was constantly denied.

Then he kick me over to the Army and found myself in Basic at the start of February 2012.

So by the time the idea of we should keep the Spruance starting actually making sense politically? The Ships be useless hulks technically from their age.

The Navy at best need new ships being built like carriers at multiple yards, not keep old ones around.


Unless Carefully mothballed and upgraded, which the navy didn't have the budget for let alone the will due to the foresee idea of Congress going...

"Why build more? We have a bunch in storage."

Which they done multiple times before. Which have caused even more issues.

Thats before getting into the public fun...
blah ancient spruance vs chinese super ship blah...

would be *fun* headlines. Like they did with the LCS, the Zumwalts and now the Burkes...
 
The only possible plus to keeping the Spruances for all 45 years would’ve been better distributing deployments during the GWoT. Not doing so is what caused the current maintenance backlog for the Burkes, there wasn’t enough time in port. But, if you keep the Spruances, manning requirements increase to unsustainable levels.
 
You're not keeping the spruances for 45 years. The only thing keeping the spruances longer would really do is make it easier to replace them one on one with something else, or even free up the budget for more zumwalts or frigates at some point, as then getting new ships would allow you to get rid of one or 2 of those horribly expensive maintenance hogs that the sprucans were at that point. There's a reason the tico's are on their way out now without a direct replacement ready!
 
Except that by the time Congress Started saying Grow!

Was like 2015 2017 after over 20 years of Saying Shrink.
All the time Congress was saying "shrink" they were adding missions to the USN.

So if we can get an Admiral with enough balls to tell Congress he needs to keep the Sprucans in service, he can tell them that all the extra missions Congress added means he needs MORE ships, not less.
 
I really don't think there's any feasible way to avoid the issues of the early 2000s without not letting Iraq happen. There's simply no way to keep fleet numbers high enough in order to sustain the required operating tempo.
 
Was there any actual utility for the Spruances' aft gun turret? Has any thought been given to replacing the aft gun turret with a different weapon system or just removing it altogether?
 
It must have been useful, otherwise it would be deleted quickly from the Tico's in their early design stage.
 
Wow TomS fantastic and informative work as usual mate!
I regret I've only know just seen this thread.
So glad they never went that high positioned helo arrangement - especially if the SH-60B had to be incorporated.

Many thanks again.

Regards
Pioneer
 
It must have been useful, otherwise it would be deleted quickly from the Tico's in their early design stage.

Well, when the design was set, the second gun was speced to replicate the Vietnam gun line where one tube was usually reserved for starshell while the other would fire HE.

Operationally, the second gun was also insurance against one gun jamming, which was a real issue (ask Vincennes).
 
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