South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[Abraham Gubler]

The “optimal” is actually the Denel LIW prototype for the Mk 2 Olifant upgrade. It has had the hunter killer sight system removed which had me confused for a few web posts thinking this was a late 80s era product. This is still an original, albeit heavily modified Centurion Mk 5 turret under the upgrade. You can actually still see part of the original turret in front on photos of this vehicle.

The upgrade included the LIW GT8 105mm gun that can be swapped out for a 120mm smoothbore ordnance. Denel lost the contract for the Mk 2 upgrade to BAE Alvis so this vehicle was never realised. The Mk 2 requirement also included a more powerful engine so that would explain the new exhaust ports.

Denel also have a significant turret and large calibre gun design and production business so it is no surprise they might have designed and offered the Mk 2 turret upgrade for the Chieftain and/or a new build turret. But this is not it.

This is what the Denel Optimal looked like in its glory days.

 

[kaiserbill]

The market beyond South Africa would be obvious, Jordan which is a major Ratel user and where South African companies have had a strong presence, notably IST Dynamics prior to their acquisition by BAE and Kuwait, both have previously procured Chieftain.

Correct Sealord.

In fact that Jordanian Falcon slim turret with the autoloaded 120mm mounted on the Challenger chassis has a heavy South African design input. Mechanology Design Bereau and IST Dynamics from South Africa were responsible as far as I remember.

It can also be fitted to the Centurion, strangely enough.

 

[JFC Fuller]

This is what the Denel Optimal looked like in its glory days.

The South African armour museum today has something quite depressing about it, all those poorly kept vehicles look like they are decaying, much like the Armed Forces that originally ordered them and the industry that built them.

That this was a competitor to BAE/Alvis would explain the twin use of the Mk2 designation and the differences to the hulls.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

It can also be fitted to the Centurion, strangely enough.

The Chieftan and later Challenger resused the turret ring of the Centurion but have a shorter basket height. So you can stick a Chieftan or Challenger turret into a Centurion but not vice veresa. Of course there would be other integration issues but not a problem for the Falcon turret.

 

[kaiserbill]

The upgrade included the LIW GT8 105mm gun that can be swapped out for a 120mm smoothbore ordnance. Denel lost the contract for the Mk 2 upgrade to BAE Alvis so this vehicle was never realised. The Mk 2 requirement also included a more powerful engine so that would explain the new exhaust ports.

The gentleman who informed me about the turret also stated that the Optimal had a more powerful engine. He stated that the Optimal, whilst heavier than the Mk1B, was a couple of kilometers faster.

As far as I know regarding the engines, the Olifant Mk1A appears to have the Continental AV1790 750hp diesel, the Mk1B has this powerpack upgraded to somewhere around 910 hp (1790-6A perhaps?), whilst the Olifant Mk2 has this engine upgraded and uprated once more to push out about 1040hp. (the continental diesel 1790-9AR family member has been rated as high as 1200hp as found in the Merkava 3.)

Where this leaves the Optimal, and which variant engine it is fitted with, I'm not sure.

 

[kaiserbill]

The Denel GT-9 120mm smoothbore tank gun is interesting to me.

I think the decision not to equip the Olifant with this weapon, or to procure the productionised variant of the TTD put this project on the backburner.

I know that a few guns were produced and tested. This 120mm had a barrel lenth of 53 calibres, and used semi-combustible cartridge cases.

The picture below was sent to me ages ago, and was said to be the LIW (Lyttleton Ingenier Werke) 120mm.

 

[JFC Fuller]

Kaiser, this the list I have for known designations of South African AT guns:

GT-2 90mm on the Eland and Ratel
GT-3 designation has been used for the 105mm L7 in the Olifant
GT-4 is the 76mm installed on the Rooikat
GT-6 Experimental 120/140mm gun
GT-7 was a low pressure version of the above for the Rooikat 105
GT-8 was an advanced rifled 105mm, apparently also for the Rooikat and Olifant
GT-9 was a dedicated 120mm gun for MBT applications
GT-12 was a lightweight 120mm intended for the Rooikat-120

What the GT-1, 5, 10 and 11 designations were used for I do not know.

 

[kaiserbill]

Sealord, The only info I have on the GT-9 is from the net:

The 120 mm smoothbore tank gun GT 9 has been developed by LIW for installation in MBTs in the 40 to 80 tonne class. The weapon was developed as a technology project to establish this capability in South Africa with development of 120 mm ammunition being carried out in parallel.

The GT 9 has a concentric hydraulic recoil system with separate eccentric hydropneumatic recuperators which are housed in the breech ring. The breech is of the semi-automatic type with a vertical sliding breech block.

The breech block is opened by means of a cam during run-up and the cartridge stub is ejected by means of two extractors. The cam can be set to manual mode which then prevents cartridge ejection during run-up. This facilitates the sealing of the system during BC warfare. A guardrail, incorporating a cartridge deflector, is mounted around the rear of the gun.

The barrel has a bayonet type thread to facilitate fast assembly and is autofrettaged in the high pressure regions to allow for the use of high pressure ammunition.

The 120 mm/52 calibre barrel is also fitted with a bore evacuator and a thermal shield with the latter having an efficiency in excess of 80 per cent. Provision has been made for the possible installation of a muzzle reference system and it is also possible to fit a muzzle brake.

The gun has been designed for use with ammunition using a semi-combustible cartridge case with a metal sealing stub.

Main weapon caliber (mm) 120
Barrel length (calibres) 53
Weight (kg) 3000
Recoil force (kg) 4000
Recoil stroke (mm) 400

I have no idea how accurate this is.

The GT-12 I think is a a lightweight 120mm as you mentioned, for vehicles weighing around 20 tons plus.

The TTD had a particularly sophisticated and advanced fire control set up for it's time.

 

[kaiserbill]

The Tank Technology Demonstrator, also called the Loggum or Loggim, was designed as the follow on to the Olifant, to enter service in the 1990's. This new tank was roughly in the class of the Leopard 2, weighing about 60 tons, carrying a 120mm smoothbore, and capable of speeds in the region of 70km/h. It had a sophisticated and advanced "hunter/killer" fire control system.


Some more pictures of the TTD below. Does anyone know how many were built? There is one at the Armour museum at Bloemfontein that appears to be taken out for a run every now and then. It generally carries the registration plate TTD001M and has what I think says "Alpha & Omega" on the turret side.

It also has a completely different engine type than the Continental diesels of the Olifants.

 

[kaiserbill]

A couple more:

 

[kaiserbill]

And some more from that article:

 

[JFC Fuller]

I see considerable similarities between the TTD turret and the Optimal, take away the Optimal's wedges and the Plan view looks remarkably similar even with the smoke grenade launchers in the cut out mid way down the side of the turret. The locations of the hatches and sights also look similar. Also, according to description, both turrets have the bustle-mounted carousel that automatically passes ammunition to the loader (The Merkava IV has a similar system).

 

[kaiserbill]

Kaiser, this the list I have for known designations of South African AT guns:

GT-2 90mm on the Eland and Ratel
GT-3 designation has been used for the 105mm L7 in the Olifant
GT-4 is the 76mm installed on the Rooikat
GT-6 Experimental 120/140mm gun
GT-7 was a low pressure version of the above for the Rooikat 105
GT-8 was an advanced rifled 105mm, apparently also for the Rooikat and Olifant
GT-9 was a dedicated 120mm gun for MBT applications
GT-12 was a lightweight 120mm intended for the Rooikat-120

What the GT-1, 5, 10 and 11 designations were used for I do not know.

I know Denel developed a version of the Soviet 125mm gun. It used the example on one of the Polish T-72's it "aquired" as a starting point. I'd imagine it not to be exactly the same as there would be no point. Perhaps this is one of the missing designations?

I have also heard that the Mechem 6X6 Krokodil could have been the prototype of a relatively low air transportable IFV, but I'm unsure whether this is truly the case or not. The TTD apparently was what its name implied, a demonstrator. The finished tank would have been based on it, but refined "considerably."

 

[Apophenia]

My understanding was that Armscor's GT-3 was the Centurion's QF 20-pdr breech fitted with an RO L7 barrel for the Olifant Mk 1A. This is a shot in the dark but mightn't GT-1 have been a local designation for a tweaked 20-pdr in the Semel/Olifant Mk Is?

About the South African 125mm smooth-bore. The T-72/D-81 was received from Poland in 1989. Armscor began TTD in 1983. So, timing's off for a D-81 copy to fills that empty GT5 'slot'.

 

[JFC Fuller]

My understanding was that Armscor's GT-3 was the Centurion's QF 20-pdr breech fitted with an RO L7 barrel for the Olifant Mk 1A. This is a shot in the dark but mightn't GT-1 have been a local designation for a tweaked 20-pdr in the Semel/Olifant Mk Is?

I have wondered the same, whether the GT-1 or GT-2 was the 20-pdr or maybe even the 17-pdr.

About the South African 125mm smooth-bore. The T-72/D-81 was received from Poland in 1989. Armscor began TTD in 1983. So, timing's off for a D-81 copy to fills that empty GT5 'slot'.

Perhaps the development of the 120mm may have started before the TTD???

 

[Abraham Gubler]

GT stands for Gun, Tank. Since the 90mm GT-2 would have entered production in or around 1962 South Africa had only two guns in tanks before this time: the 20 Pounder (Centurion) and the 77mm (Comet). The Comet was in store so most likely it is associated with the 20 Pounder of the Centurion.

 

[Apophenia]

Since we're in the realm of speculation, what changes to the 20 pdr might have been considered?

Am I right in thinking that the L7's 105mm is essentially a 'wildcatted' 20 pdr case? Is it even conceivable that South African thought that it could create a 105mm gun by boring out 20 pdrs? (I know that French CN-75-50s were rebored to 90mm but a 84mm to 105mm rebore would be a much bigger jump.)

 

[Rickshaw]

Since we're in the realm of speculation, what changes to the 20 pdr might have been considered?

Am I right in thinking that the L7's 105mm is essentially a 'wildcatted' 20 pdr case? Is it even conceivable that South African thought that it could create a 105mm gun by boring out 20 pdrs? (I know that French CN-75-50s were rebored to 90mm but a 84mm to 105mm rebore would be a much bigger jump.)

The 105mm L7 is essentially a new 20 Pdr with a larger bore tube. The chamber remains the same size, I believe. This allowed units to switch between 20 Pdr and 105mm tubes easily, which they often did to expend old 20 Pdr rounds in training on the range.

 

[kaiserbill]

Since we're in the realm of speculation, what changes to the 20 pdr might have been considered?

Am I right in thinking that the L7's 105mm is essentially a 'wildcatted' 20 pdr case? Is it even conceivable that South African thought that it could create a 105mm gun by boring out 20 pdrs? (I know that French CN-75-50s were rebored to 90mm but a 84mm to 105mm rebore would be a much bigger jump.)

The 105mm L7 is essentially a new 20 Pdr with a larger bore tube. The chamber remains the same size, I believe. This allowed units to switch between 20 Pdr and 105mm tubes easily, which they often did to expend old 20 Pdr rounds in training on the range.

The South African Tankers used the 84mm 20 pdr for training alongside 105mm gun for years, which fits very neatly with your statement above, rickshaw.

With such a scarcity of info and pics of the LIW/Denel 120/53 smoothbore gun, I don't suppose there is any detail on their 140mm weapon?

 

[Apophenia]

rickshaw: Thanks, that's what I guessed (since the 20 pdr case is 618mm long with a 147mm rim and a 105 case is between 607mm and 627mm long and retains that 147mm rim). So, (and, again, total speculation) perhaps GT1 was an attempt to mate a locally-designed 105 barrel to the 20 pdr breech?

kaiserbill: you mention a smooth-bore 120/53. Is that the GT6 or GT9? (If the latter, I need to correct my GT list. I have 120/52 for the GT9. Otherwise, the list is much like sealordlawrence's.)

GT1 - ?
GT2 - 90mm gun (Eland-90, Ratel-90), based on French CN-90-F1
GT3 - 105mm/54 for the Olifant Mk 1A/'1B (QF 20 pdr/L7 hybrid, breech/barrel)
GT4 - 76mm/62 gun for Rooikat-76
GT5 - ?
GT6 - smooth-bore 120mm (optional 140mm barrel) for TTD
GT7 - 105mm/51 L7 development (L7/GT3 barrel, long-recoil system) for Rooikat-105, LMT 105
- lower recoil GT7 variant under development (still?)
GT8 - upgraded 105mm L7 intended for Olifant Mk 1B (gun tested but never fitted?)
GT9 - smooth-bore 120mm/52 for TTD, 3 prototypes (trialled in LMT 105 turret?)
GT10 - ?
GT11 - ?
GT12 - lightweight, low-recoil 120mm (projected Rooikat-120)

 

[kaiserbill]

Apo, I have seen the South African 120mm given as 52 or 53 calibres long. Perhaps it is a typo, or perhaps either the GT-6, GT-9, or GT-12 had a marginally different barrel length?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

On the GT-1, GT-2, GT-3 issue its important to understand the timelines.

GT-2 was the French 90mm gun for the Eland and entered production in 1962. The SA Army first brought Centurions (>200 Mk 2/3) in the 1950s as part of the Commonwealth, post Korean War defence plan where SA and Aus would deploy field armies to the Middle East to fight the Soviets. But the Afrikaner Nationalists government as part of its de-Britishing program slashed the Army and sold about 100 Centurions to Switzerland. Then came the “Winds of Change” and the arming of African nationalist movements by the Soviets (that has to this day ruined Africa). In response to this the Afrikaner Nationalists government sought to rebuild the tank force and about 100 Centurions were purchased from India and Jordan in the 1970s. The first South African Centurion upgrade to feature a 105mm gun was the Olifant Mk 1A in the early 1980s. The 20 Pounder was replaced by the GT-3 105mm which was a copy of the L7 provided via Israel. Whole new ordnance no need for upgrade of 25 year old clapped out 20 Pounders.

So what is the GT-1? Before the GT-2 the SA Army had the 20 Pounder (Centurion) and 77mm (Comet) high velocity guns in their inventory. The Comets were in store so it’s a pretty safe bet that GT-1 was the name given to the 20 Pounder. Especially as they were to give them pretty heavy service for 20 years and would have needed a domestic ammunition production capability.

PS: The GT-4 is not semi-auto it is a single shot manually loaded like most other tank guns.

 

[Apophenia]

So, you're saying that the GT3 as 20-pdr/L7 hybrid is a myth. It is simply a reverse-engineered L7.

Armscor/Denel (or the SADF) would've applied the GT1 to 20 pounders for ammunition supply purposes.

If so, that might also explain the 'missing' GT5, GT10, and GT11.

With 20 captured T-55s, the 100mm D-10 would be one candidate for GT5 (ammunition for training and Rhodesian T-55LDs, perhaps? I can't imagine them bothering with ammo for the T-34/85s).

The previously mentioned T-72's would also require 125mm round (the ATE South Africa upgrade retained the original gun, right? So the 2A46/D-81 would need an ammuntion supply as well).

 

[Abraham Gubler]

So, you're saying that the GT3 as 20-pdr/L7 hybrid is a myth. It is simply a reverse-engineered L7.

As has been pointed out above the L7 105mm is just a rebored 20 pounder. The first prototypes were quite literally 20 pounder tubes bored out from 84mm to 105mm. Did the South African's play around with their 20 pounders to make 105mm? Probably. But the Olifant 1A upgrade benefited from tinjhe ection of L7 guns via Israel. In 1980 you'd be crazy to convert old 20 pounders to 105mm by reboring. SA was producing 155mm barrels so should have had no problem making brand new 105mm tubes. But to know exacelty what happened we would need someone with first or second hand knowledge to provide some input.

 

[kaiserbill]

It appears as if the Skokiaan below was South Africa's 2nd look at testing modifications to the basic Centurion. The first seemed to be an attempt highlighted in the passage below.

The second phase seems to have been fitting a limited amount of Centurions with the Continental - AVI-1790-8 petrol engine rated at 810hp. This was a big leap up in power from the 650hp meteor. This seems to have resulted in the fastest and most powerful of any "conventional" Centurion, with a 50% increase in speed to around 50km/h. The range though, always the achilles heel of the petrol engined Centurion in South Africa, was poor. It appears the Skokiaan retained the 20pdr (84mm).

During 1968 the first attempt to overcome the problems encountered in South Africa with the Centurion tank (over-heating, spares etc.) was not made easy as South Africa had been placed under a United Nations arms embargo. The first modification upgrading took place with the installation of a 372 kW (500 hp), V12, Detroit diesel, model V71 two-stroke diesel engine. The second modification/upgrading took place in 1973 with the fitting of a Continental fuel-injection engine and a three-speed Allison Semi-Automatic transmission. Modifications took place at 61 Base Workshop, Pretoria, in-corporation with Armscor. This project was registered as ‘Project Skokiaan’ and three prototypes were built. Evaluation trials of these three prototype Centurions took place in Walvis Bay Namibia (SWA), and in Bloemfontein in 1973. The upgrading was not successful as the existing fuel tank layout could not cater for the high fuel consumption of the engine resulting in a poor operating range. A grand total of eleven tanks were modified. Nine were deployed on the Angolan Border in 1976. The project was terminated in 1974 with the start of ‘Project Semels’. The ‘Skokiaan’ on display is the original first prototype to be built (R90587).

http://www.saarmourmuseum.co.za/lesakeng.html

 

[kaiserbill]

Photos and drawings of the 8x8 bridge vehicle, and Olifant Mk1b bridging vehicle. Note bulldozer attachment to tank.

I've never seen any others of the MK1b bridge, nor any ARV based on its chassis, although I'm sure that this must have been looked at for obvious reasons. Not too sure where I received these pictures originally from a few years back now.....

 

[kaiserbill]

The 68mm Mechem RO68 has a range of 6,500m. Basically, it was the 68mm SNEB as found on aircraft. This was built with a six-round tripod mounted launcher assembly weighing only 45kg, or 4 tube version which was lighter. Touted at special forces, the cheap, colapsible launcher was disposable. Timer or crew fired, proximity fuse could explode 3 meters above ground, spraying 3000 steel balls. Aimed with standard mortar sight.

I'm unsure whether this has actually been serially produced or productionised, but below are the only 2 pics I've ever seen of this concept, and I've never heard of any service induction over the years.

 

[Rickshaw]

Photos and drawings of the 8x8 bridge vehicle, and Olifant Mk1b bridging vehicle. Note bulldozer attachment to tank.

Not a bulldozer blade, per se, rather it its a wide stabiliser for helping to steady the vehicle while laying the bridge (and preventing the nose from dipping). The Leopard Biber AVLB has one (indeed, that vehicle looks remarkably like the Biber).

 

[kaiserbill]

On pg5 post number 66, Sealord posted a picture of the Rooikat SPAAM equipped with the SAHV missile, now developed into the Umkhonto.

This missile was originally developed to replace the Crotale, which was originally developed by France and South Africa and called the Cactus. The SAHV was developed to replace the Cactus, as a superior bolt on replacement to the Cactus on the original vehicle in the airfield defence role, and as an army field weapon mounted on more robust platforms such as the Rooikat 8X8 vehicle to accompany mechanised flying columns in the field.

Below is the only picture I know of it on the original Cactus (Crotale) vehicle, apart from a picture of it being fired from the original vehicle at Overberg Test range. Any other pics would be welcome, as well as the obvious modifications needed to the carrier/firing vehicle

 

[kaiserbill]

The SAHV missile was, as noted above, developed to be a replacement for the Crotale/Cactus in the airfield defence role, and as a more robust system for the field. To the latter end, there was to be a twin 35mm SPAAG and a SPAAM system with the SAHV-3. Platforms looked at were the Ratel, Rooikat, and G6, with the latter 2 being preferred, and the Rooikat being the favourite. These were the preferred wheeled platforms. Tracked platforms were also looked at, particularly in the export realm. To this end, both SPAAG and SPAAM turrets could be mounted on various tracked chassis, with the Olifant and T-72 being the ones particularly looked at. There is evidence that the Polish Loara system has the South African project as its genesis point.

Some pics of the tracked versions below, all seem to be on the T-72 chassis at a glance. The description for the 3rd picture was:

"This technical drawing shows the ZA-SPADS Self-propelled Air Defence System, incorporating the ESD-S ETS 2400 Radar/Optical Tracker fitted to a tracked vehicle. The complete system fitted in with this configuration with almost no modifications to the tracked transporter."

 

[JFC Fuller]

Photos and drawings of the 8x8 bridge vehicle, and Olifant Mk1b bridging vehicle. Note bulldozer attachment to tank.

I've never seen any others of the MK1b bridge, nor any ARV based on its chassis, although I'm sure that this must have been looked at for obvious reasons. Not too sure where I received these pictures originally from a few years back now.....

The only thing South African there is the Olifant chassis. The truck is the Spanish Kynos Aljaba (8×8) and the bridging system itself was supplied by MAN mobile bridges, now part of KMW. Hence the similarity to the Biber AVLB.

 

[kaiserbill]

I believe very few of the vehicles below were made. Obviously used as personnel transports, and as a school transport in certain areas. Were these SAMIL-100 based, like the Kwevoel or the vehicle that mounts the Bataleur MRL? Anybody know what it was called and how many were produced?

9 firing ports on the visible side, with a vehicle commanders hatch visible.

 

[Jemiba]

As the development from the Centurion to the Olifant was a theme in this thread, I've
looked up in South African a magazine, I've got a while ago (thank you foiling ! )
There is a timeline with the versions, that emerged from the Centurion Mk.3.
Additionally I've attached two colour profiles of the Olifant Mk.1B and Mk.2
(from V.E.G. magazine 8. issue)

 

[kaiserbill]

Fascinating Jemiba!

Is the original article in Afrikaans? I can arrange a translation.

 

[kaiserbill]

The rough translation for the legend beneath the side profile drawing of the Olifant Mk1B posted by Jemiba is:
"The 1B with turret that slopes from the front, and the synthetic side plates of the TTD, with the GT-8 cannon."

Not sure if the "side plates of the TTD" refer to the hull or the turret, but I think they mean the turret? Both have hidden, or protected 81mm smoke dischargers. The chart appears to show the Optimal as a contemporary of the TTD, and as the optimal version of the Mk1B pending the TTD, or as the first Olifant Mk2, again pending the arrival of the TTD and probably with technology from that project?

Below a side profile artwork of a TTD.

 

[kaiserbill]

Does anybody know what these are? They were variously labelled as "Klipspringer", "Kobra", or "Ratel B".

Are they related to the Mechem MC-90 programme in any way?

 

[Rickshaw]

Odd turret shape in the first four drawings. Its base doesn't seem to match the ring.

 

[Sea Skimmer]

My guess is given the lightweight of these designs, that the turret housing is really just a superified kind of wrap around gunshield, with entry through the equivalent of a large hatch. The main advantage of doing that would be it makes the vehicle cheap and provides for an easily modified main armament. Because the opening in the hull is small you could have versions with no turret without worrying out a large gaping hole the roof as well. A reasonable hatch could be provided to close it off.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

These vehicles look more like fan fiction than any kind of serious design. "Ratel-B"?

 

[kaiserbill]

Not too sure of where I got them from originally, so not too sure on the reality of the drawings. I was hoping somebody may shed some light on the matter.

On the small turret or ring: Some of the modern weapon stations/turrets produced in South Africa, particularly for some of the RG vehicles, are quite small or compact. The Iklwa also, from memory, has a rapidly modifiable top-hull segment, allowing different sized turrets/weapons to be installed.

On a side note, the Mechem MC-90 prototype is decaying away at Bloemfontein as can be seen below. It was based on Unimog mechanicals with an Eland 90 turret. The following versions were looked at:

MC-90 - Reconnaissance/fire support version armed with 90mm DEFA.
MC-20 - Paper proposal for an air defence version.
MC-81 - Paper proposal for a Mortar armed fire support version.

Anyone know anything further of these proposals, or have concept images? I assume the mortar version was an 81mm, and the AA version must have mounted one or more 20mm cannon?