South African Indigenous Naval Projects?

[THO88]

Interesting article about the building of the Minister (now Warrior) strike craft in Israel from the South African Journal of Military Studies (https://scientiamilitaria.journals.ac.za/pub/article/view/132).

Although the article is primarily about the strike craft construction, it does also delve into the other acquisition projects for frigates, corvettes and submarines

 

[Graugrun]

Another 35m Sentinal patrol craft delivered by Paramount Maritime - proberly to the same client (Nigeria?) Cape Town's distinct Table Mountain features in the background..

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featur...other-sentinel-patrol-vessel-for-west-africa/

 

[kaiserbill]

The article about the Strike craft by Tho88 above gives flavour to the tight security surrounding armaments development and procurement by South Africa during the embargo years, and explains why information is so difficult to come by, even all these decades later.

It's interesting that vessels looked at through Portugal and Spain seemed to be in the region of 1800t, which is about 30% heavier than the Baptista de Andrade class that were allegedly ordered for South Africa.

Also interesting is the stated requirement for as much as 10 light frigates.
This makes sense, if one assumes a squadron of 3 vessels each for East coast (Durban) and West coast (Simon's town) naval bases. Plus a vessel or two undergoing refitting.
This is mirrored in the 9 strikecraft fleet eventually inducted.

South Africa through the 1960's had 8 destroyers/frigates (2 Loch class, 3 W class, 3 Type 12 class).
It struggled to man all at the same time, as the navy generally speaking was behind the airforce and army in terms of funding. This led to a vessel or two being laid up due to manpower shortages.

However, this would have been rectified for new light frigates, due to conscription being introduced in the 1970's, as well as the fact that the newer frigates would have had considerably less manpower requirements than the older destroyers/frigates. As an example, the HDW FS1500 frigate that SA apparently bought the plans for have only half the crewing requirement for the older W and Type 12 classes.

 

[THO88]

to the tight security surrounding armaments development and procurement by South Africa during the embargo years, and explains why information is so difficult to come by, even all these decades later.

About a year ago I read a book about the SA nuclear weapons program. In one chapter they described how once the govt decided to abandon the program and come clean to the international community, they disposed of almost all the documents related to their development and acquisition. The official reason they did this was to limit the further proliferation of nuclear weapons, but the main reason was to obviously cover up any external assistance received or international laws broken. Although not as sensitive, I fear that a lot of the documentation regarding the acquisition of new frigates/corvettes and submarines may have fell victim to the same scenario. Additionally, most of the men who where the mid and high level managers in these programs are pushing 70+ years old. Any personal knowledge held by them will unfortunately be lost soon as well.

 

[THO88]

After my previous post, I went back and read through this entire thread again and it got me thinking about the modernization plans for the President Class Frigates. Specifically their armament.

The general consensus is the load out would have consisted of 76 mm Oto Melara cannons, Skorpein missiles, Mk 32 torpedo launchers and an unspecified CIWS. In the context of the era (late 1980’s) what would this gun have been?

The 35 mm gun on the current Valour class frigates, or something similar, most likely would not have been available yet. The only gun I can think of would have been the 40 mm Bofors, but I can’t imagine the SAN fitting the vintage L/60 but the L/70 with modern fire control and VT fuzed shells would have been a good interim weapon.

Does anyone know if the SAN ever acquired the 40 mm L/70? All my research would indicate they only ever installed the L/60 on their ships.

 

[kaiserbill]

The local 35mm was in development at that stage.
Project Prima, the project to develop a mobile SPAAG, had decided on the twin 35mm based on the future Rooikat chassis by 1983 already.

There might have been a delay between production of these and a completed Type 12 modification, but it makes sense to have used those.
Perhaps the 40mm Bofors could have been interim, or perhaps they would have retro fitted the twin 35mm naval variant.

I guess the exact dates of the Type 12 rebuild is what is needed?

 

[THO88]

I found the attached brochure from Denel for the 35 DPG fitted on the Valour Frigates. Based on the rate of fire (550 RPM), the GA-35 cannon used in the DPG appears to be the same cannon used in the ZA-35. Although they're obviously different turrets, I'm sure many of the components like the feeding mechanisms and gun drives would be dual purpose.

I guess the exact dates of the Type 12 rebuild is what is needed?

I have a few books that have a decent amount of detail on the modernization program (although nothing about the CIWS) and its subsequent cancellation but unfortunately all my books are in storage as I'm in the process of renovating my home. I was able to access my father's library over the Thanksgiving Holiday and a 1988-89 edition of Jane's and it did have the following blurb "It is reported that there are plans to give both ships a major modernization to return them to active service".

If the modernization was still be considered as late as 1989, and assuming 2 to 4 years to execute the project, the new gun system may have actually been ready in time for installation. The pamphlet does state the DPG does not require a deck penetration, which would have made retrofitting at a later date much easier as well.

As a side note, the pamphlet says the DPG can be fitted on vessels as little as 200 tons. I wonder if there were ever plans to install this on the Minister Class Strike craft, much like the Israeli's did when they installed the Phalanx CIWS on their Sa'ar 4 boats

 

[kaiserbill]

Yes, it's the same gun. It's the ZA-35, used in twin format on the Rooikat SPAAG, in single format on the eGLaS, and in twin format on the naval 35DPG. It's likely it was also to be used in the original Ratel replacement project, as can be seen on the various South African prototype turrets and vehicles. I suspect in a modified form for that application.

It was developed by LIW.

No idea about the strikecraft, but I suspect it would probably have made an appearance there, if for nothing else than freeing up 76mm turrets for the indigenous frigate programme.

 

[kaiserbill]

I have a few books that have a decent amount of detail on the modernization program (although nothing about the CIWS) and its subsequent cancellation but unfortunately all my books are in storage as I'm in the process of renovating my home.

I am very interested in what you may have on the subject of modernising the remaining Type 12s.
The only reference I have seen of it is in South Africa's Fighting Ships Past and Present by Allan du Toit, which I gave the gist of earlier in the thread.
An excellent book btw.

 

[THO88]

One of the books I have is also the “South Africa’s Fighting Ships, Past and Present” Like you said, great book.

The other book is called “Three Frigates”. I can’t remember the author but recall he was a high ranking officer who retired from the SAN.

Next time I go to my storage unit, I’ll see how hard it is for me to dig out my books and find it. Worst case I’ll get it in March when I move back into my home. If I remember, there was a few pages of general information on the subject but nothing like drawings or hard specifications. I remember there being scans of actual correspondence between the SAN and the SADF HQ regarding the project and its ultimate cancellation as well.

 

[kaiserbill]

One of the books I have is also the “South Africa’s Fighting Ships, Past and Present” Like you said, great book.

The other book is called “Three Frigates”. I can’t remember the author but recall he was a high ranking officer who retired from the SAN.

Rear Admiral Chris Bennett.
I know of the book, but don't own it nor have read it.
It will be interesting to see what he says about the project.

 

[THO88]

I finally was able to get the book from my storage unit. Below are the highlights regarding Project Lumeen to upgrade the remaining two President Class frigates.

• Project Lumeen to was formally introduced in 1985
• Steam propulsion machinery would be replaced by two modern diesels with associated reduction gears. Diesel generators would be installed as well. Required diesel engines where available (didn't specify whether they would be manufactured locally or imported) and gearboxes would be designed and manufactured in SA.
• Operating range would increase from 4,000 to 10,000 nautical miles
• Max speed would be reduced from 30 to 24 knots
• Enlargement of hanger and flight deck to accommodate a single Puma helicopter. One design iteration would have enabled the ships to carry three Puma's
• Conversion would occur at Simon's Town Dockyard and would require four years to accomplish
• In 1988, the navy only received 7% of the defense budget
• Cost to convert the two ships would be approximately the same as six fighters or two strike craft
• Parts and weapons interchangeability with strike craft
• Conversion would support the following objectives
  • Maintain surface ASW capability
  • Act as a command ship for multi-ship battlegroup. Additionally, provide for limited at sea maintenance and replenishment
  • Diplomatic visits and sustained EEZ patrol
  • Support of special operations
  • Springboard local development of sonar and electronic support measure (ESM) for the next generation surface combatant vessel
• Decision not to proceed with Project Lumeen was relayed to the Navy in a memo form the Chief SADF dated April of 1988

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks THO88. That is interesting, as it comes from a highly placed and involved source. It gives more detail on what Alan du Toit briefly mentions in his book.
Some personal musings:

1: The timeline makes sense when we consider local developments. SAS Drakensberg was laid down in 1984, and launched in 1986. The indigenous light frigates were cancelled as steel was about to be cut in 1989. This conversion project above was to start in 1985/86 and would have been completed in 4 years..so 1989/90. Drakensberg and the light frigates would have been built in Durban, whilst these conversions were to be done at Simonstown. Simonstown carried out the SAS Tafelberg rebuild into an assault ship/helicopter carrier, which was completed in 1984. So this was to spread the work, but more importantly, the budget spend. The navy, as alluded to before in this thread, and the points above, were firmly behind the Air Force and Army regarding budget allocation.

2: I'm going to take a guess and assume the same diesel engines as fitted to SAS Drakensberg. He mentions 2 diesels, and a reduction in speed, so this adds up. I guess Gear Ratio or another local company would be the gear manufacturer.

3: These conversions would have kept the ASW component viable, pending the arrival of the indigenous light Frigates. Additionally, they were to have the first editions of various local sonar and electronic equipment destined for the indigenous light frigates, or Next Generation Surface Combatant Vessel as it is called there. They seem to have had the purpose of doubling up as command, support, and flagship vessels to operate alongside a strikecraft squadron, increasing their range of deployment.

4: It seems that enlarging the flight deck and hangar to support a naval Oryx was preferred, with the more complex option of 3 Oryx, discussed earlier in the thread with below deck stowage with lift in a rebuilt superstructure only an option looked at. The Naval Oryx MK2 would have also served on the indigenous light frigates. With the cancellation of these conversions and the light frigate programme, only 2 Naval Oryx MK2 helicopters were eventually built, and taken over by the SA Antarctic programme.

 

[kaiserbill]

So, if one was to surmise what these vessels aviation facilities would roughly look like, I guess a look at the Chilean navy Condell class would give some clues. These were Type 12/Leander vessels upgraded with enlarged flight deck and hangar for the Eurocopter Super Puma. These have since been sold to, and are still operated by the Ecuadorian navy.

Of course, the weapons and electronics fit forward would be considerably different. A new bridge is a given as well, instead of the original "D" type.

 

[Hood]

Agreed, THO88's description from Three Frigates certainly makes more sense than some of the earlier musings.
I feel that a 10,000nm range might have been a little optimistic even with the improved fuel consumption of the diesels, it feels like some additional bunkerage would have been required, which may have helped counter some additional topweight from the larger hangar etc.

 

[THO88]

2: I'm going to take a guess and assume the same diesel engines as fitted to SAS Drakensberg. He mentions 2 diesels, and a reduction in speed, so this adds up.

I had the exact same thought. The 12,500 ton Drakensburg had two 8,160 HP (16,320 HP total) engines which could propel it at 20+ knots. This same amount of horsepower should have had no issue propelling the 2,800 to President Class Frigates to the stated 24 knots. I did some research and I'm fairly confident that Drakensburg was fitted with MAN B&W 12V 32/40 engines. These are commonly used on commercial ships and assuming the paperwork stated they were intended for such; they should have been able to import them despite the arms embargo. Similar to how the River Class Minehunters were ordered as research vessels for the department of transportation. As a side note, the 32/40 engine (Probably the 10-cylinder vice the 12) was also the main engine of the replenishment vessel HMNZS Endevour, commissioned in the same era as Drakensburg.

I feel that a 10,000nm range might have been a little optimistic even with the improved fuel consumption of the diesels, it feels like some additional bunkerage would have been required, which may have helped counter some additional topweight from the larger hangar etc.

The 10,000 nm range does sound excessive considering the original range was only 4,000. I skimmed through the "Three Frigates" book again and did find something that could explain the drastic increase in range. The first ship to undergo the modernization to add the hanger & flightdeck for the Wasp helicopter (President Krueger) had significant stability issues. This instability became progressively worse as the ships would burn fuel, as this not only made them ride higher in the water but raised the center of gravity as well. This was partially remedied by adding 40 tons of iron into the bilges of both President Krueger and President Steyn, but the vessels still could not burn below 30% of their fuel and maintain stability. President Pretorius finally corrected this issue by installing a compensated fuel system in addition to the added iron in the bilges. The compensated fuel system works by filling the fuel tanks with sea water as the fuel is used up. The book doesn't specify if only the existing fuel tanks were converted but the fuel capacity would have been significantly increased if any of the ballast tanks were converted to compensated fuel tanks as well. Perhaps the modernization had all of the ballast and fuel tanks on the remaining two vessels being converted to compensated fuel tanks.

 

[Hood]

Yes the Rothesays were problematic in terms of topweight due to the design of the hull which concentrated the weights relatively high.
They were stable fully loaded with fuel but progressively worsened as fuel was used. As the E-inC refused to allow seawater substitution due to contamination issues they had 53 tons of seawater ballast in tanks beneath the fuel tanks (it was found ballast was needed even when fully loaded to maintain stability). It seems some errors during the design lead to some issues too needing ballast forward to correct a 6ft trim down trim.
Your mention of the addition of 40 tons of iron into Kruger and Steyn is interesting, presumably this was in addition to the seawater ballast tanks so would have been 93 tons of ballast in total!
Presumably the last pair built for Australia (Swan and Torrens) with the Y.136 powerplant and forecastle deck extended right aft had some larger changes in ballast for trim.

The Leanders did have filters and tank-stripping to allow seawater compensation in the main tanks but it did give trouble in service. With the switch to diesel oil for the Lumen rebuilds that problem would have been lessened.

Replacing the machinery with diesels would have altered the weights and topweight calculations somewhat. I agree it could well have been intended to maintain all the fuel bunkers plus converting the seawater ballast tanks into fuel tanks.
Australia managed some changes, but given how delicate the base Rothesay design was on topweight and the extent of the changes proposed (especially with the 3 Puma layouts) I am sceptical how these rebuilds might have turned out in practice. Nobody else attempted anything this ambitious on a Type 12 hull.

 

[THO88]

The author of Three Frigates implies that part of the reason Project Lumeen was cancelled was because the Navy got too carried away with the design. I can definitely imagine how one could easily exceed the design limitations of the type 12 hull being only 2,800 tons.

I think the Chilean's modernization of their Leander's (Condell) frigates mentioned by kaiserbill does show that a Type 12 hull could handle a single Oryx and provides a good template of what a realistic Project Lumeen could have accomplished. In addition to expanding the aviation facilities, the Chilean's installed a Phalanx CIWS atop the hanger bay and moved the Exocet missile launchers and MK 32 torpedo tubes abeam the hanger. See the below photo. The SAN would have installed Skorpein missiles and the locally developed 35 mm in place of the Exocet and Phalanx, in addition to replacing the twin 4.5" with a 76 mm Oto Melara. Coupled with updated radar, sonar and C4I suite these would have been very capable ships. The Condell's are still in service today with Ecuador. As another note, the Indonesians bought the Dutch Leander's (Van Speijk-class) second hand and later replaced the steam plant with diesels. Not only does this validate that replacing the steam plant on the President Class as feasible but the top speed of the Indonesian ship post conversion is 24 knots, exactly what Project Lumeen projected.

 

[Hood]

I think the Chilean's modernization of their Leander's (Condell) frigates mentioned by kaiserbill does show that a Type 12 hull could handle a single Oryx and provides a good template of what a realistic Project Lumeen could have accomplished.

True, though its worth noting that the Condells were Broad-Beam Leanders so had an advantage in terms of stability (2ft more beam).

As another note, the Indonesians bought the Dutch Leander's (Van Speijk-class) second hand and later replaced the steam plant with diesels. Not only does this validate that replacing the steam plant on the President Class as feasible but the top speed of the Indonesian ship post conversion is 24 knots, exactly what Project Lumeen projected.

The Van Speijks were built to the original 41ft beam so were much closer to the original Type 12 hull, so I agree this shows that the diesel transformation was possible, and indeed that the speed estimates were accurate. I wonder what range the Indonesians get?

Just for completeness, the engines used:
1 ship (first conversion) - 2x Caterpillar CAT DITA 3612, Reintjes WAF 4566 gearboxes, 12,000 hp (8,900 kW)
1 ship (second conversion) - 2x SEMT Pielstick 12PA6B, Renk SWUF 98 gearboxes, 11,800 hp (8,800 kW)
4 ships - 2x Caterpillar CAT DITA 3616, Reintjes WAV 1000 P gearboxes, 16,000 hp (12,000 kW)

 

[THO88]

I wonder what range the Indonesians get?

It would be interesting to see how it compares to the projected 10,000 nm range stated previously. A relatively recent edition of Janes Fighting Ships should have this number. I'll ask around at work to see if I can find a copy.

Chile was one of the few countries that maintained diplomatic ties with SA in the 80s and it was known they cooperated on defense and security matters. Project Lumeen was terminated in 1988 and the Chilean's started their frigate upgrades at a domestic shipyard in 1989. I wonder if any of the design aspects of Project Lumeen were shared with Chile for their upgrade program or vice versa?

Further expanding on the idea of naval cooperation, Chile purchased two Sa'ar 4 missile boats from Israel in 1979 and 1980 and in a 1988 editions of Janes, it states Chile was planning on starting domestic production of the class. By this time SA had already manufactured six strike craft and would have been in a good position to assist Chile in standing up their own production line

 

[kaiserbill]

There was considerable interaction between Chile and South Africa...and I've often wondered whether Type 12 spares were routed through Chile. In fact, if I were a betting man.....

On the subject of helicopters, the last 2 Leander's (broad beamed) in India's Nilgiri class were equipped with Seaking helicopters, a physically larger, heavier helicopter than the Oryx, although with less power. The Seaking did require a telescopic hangar in that application, but it was not exactly small...so there is no doubt in my mind that the Oryx, with intelligent attention to detail, was suitable for the original 12.5m beam of the Rothesay class.

 

[Graugrun]

Just changing the topic slightly - a quick update on the progress of our new hydrographic survey ship being built in Durban South Africa (to a Finnish design). A large portion of the internal components, especially electronics (minus engines/gearboxes etc), will be South African designed and built. The new generation radio system being designed by Reutech is also being completed for it. BTW - they are in New Germany in Kwazulu Natal, South Africa, and not in the country Germany - but just to muddy the waters further, they have done quite a few joint new gen radio development projects with German electronics companies (i.e. Rohde and Schwarz).

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/armscor-quality-assurance-in-action-on-project-hotel/

Edit: More detailed info and illustrations in my post #155 above.

 

[THO88]

I wonder what range the Indonesians get?

A guy I work with found a 2016 Janes (post conversion to diesel) which states the range is 4,500 nm at 12 kts. The same as the original Leander with the Steam Plant. Unfortunately, Janes never obtained the updated range

There was considerable interaction between Chile and South Africa...and I've often wondered whether Type 12 spares were routed through Chile.

Chile acquired two new Type 209 submarines from Germany in 1984 as well. If SA had purchased plans for the 209 and was preparing to start local construction, having access to these two boats and the ability to use Chile as a parts intermediary would have been invaluable during the construction process as well maintaining the boats post commissioning.

On the subject of helicopters, the last 2 Leander's (broad beamed) in India's Nilgiri class were equipped with Seaking helicopters, a physically larger, heavier helicopter than the Oryx, although with less power. The Seaking did require a telescopic hangar in that application, but it was not exactly small...so there is no doubt in my mind that the Oryx, with intelligent attention to detail, was suitable for the original 12.5m beam of the Rothesay class.

Does anyone know if there were ever plans for a true Naval variant of the Oryx with sonar, surface search radar, torpedo launch capability, etc.? I know the Mk 2 was developed for shipboard use, but it is still just a utility helicopter.

Just changing the topic slightly - a quick update on the progress of our new hydrographic survey ship being built in Durban South Africa

The article you link mentions the ship is to be fitted with "tactical communications" and the ability to operate the Lynx helicopter. Some additional google searches stated the ship will also be fitted with .50 cal machine guns. In addition to the primary survey role, it appears it will also be able to conduct an OPV role as well. I wonder if there is any intention for a mine clearance capability?

 

[Hood]

A guy I work with found a 2016 Janes (post conversion to diesel) which states the range is 4,500 nm at 12 kts. The same as the original Leander with the Steam Plant. Unfortunately, Janes never obtained the updated range

That's a shame but not unsurprising.

 

[Graugrun]

Just changing the topic slightly - a quick update on the progress of our new hydrographic survey ship being built in Durban South Africa

The article you link mentions the ship is to be fitted with "tactical communications" and the ability to operate the Lynx helicopter. Some additional google searches stated the ship will also be fitted with .50 cal machine guns. In addition to the primary survey role, it appears it will also be able to conduct an OPV role as well. I wonder if there is any intention for a mine clearance capability?


Good question - they may want to stretch as much as they can get out of it, so maybe some level of mine clearance is intended...

 

[kaiserbill]

Does anyone know if there were ever plans for a true Naval variant of the Oryx with sonar, surface search radar, torpedo launch capability, etc.? I know the Mk 2 was developed for shipboard use, but it is still just a utility helicopter

This is an interesting subject that is almost never mentioned...an ASW helicopter.
I have over the years given it thought, and I believe that there were 5 possible candidates. This is my personal opinion only, using logic, and proven availability.

1. The Westland Wasp. South Africa received 16 of 18 ordered, with at least 10 or 11 still operational by 1990. I don't think they would have stuck with it though, as it was becoming obsolete, and was single engined.

2. A navalised Allouette. South Africa had a large fleet, had access to more, newly built, from Roumania. It was operated, with folding rotors, from SAS Protea. It has been used in an ASW context by some countries, equipped with radar and torpedoes. Again, it is single engined, so I wonder...
I see this as the least likely.

3. Oryx MK 2. Navalisation already done- anti corrosion, flotation, folding rotors..etc. Great power, twin engined, great capacity for all your goodies. Largest of the options.

4. Messerschmitt Bolkow Mb105. Used as an ASW helicopter by some countries, including the Chilean Navy, and Columbian navy on their HDW FS1500 frigates. Radar and torpedoes. Twin engines. Production lines in 4 countries. The South African Police started operating them in the mid 1980's, during the peak of the sanctions...

5. The BK117. Twin engine. Acquired by some of the nominally "independent" homelands in the 1980's, later taken over by the South African Air Force.

 

[kaiserbill]

Looking at the above options, I have always suspected the Oryx Mk2 naval to be the one.
They developed it, it had commonality with an existing fleet, it was powerful and longer-ranged, with plenty of space for systems, it could perform multiple roles apart from ASW...
It could be operated and hangared on the SAS Tafelberg, Drakensberg, and Outeniqua.... and the Valour Class Meko 200 eventually bought by SA even had a hangar and flight deck designed big enough to ensure operation of the Oryx.

The only question remains whether the original indigenous light frigate could operate it.
The rumour, not solidly confirmed, is that this was to be based on the HDW FS1500.
This is a smaller 2000t full displacement frigate with a beam of 11.5 meters.
However, we have no idea whether this was definitely the design, nor whether if it was, whether it wouldn't have been an enlarged version of the basic type.

Edit: I recall reading on another SP thread here that the HDW FS1500 was part of a family of different mooted versions. A search revealed nothing. Anybody have further info?

 

[Hood]

Edit: I recall reading on another SP thread here that the HDW FS1500 was part of a family of different mooted versions. A search revealed nothing. Anybody have further info?

Could have been my post here. Sadly the gutter lost some of the text though... but can make out that the enlarged 2,400 ton version had a beam of 11.7m and indeed the drawing provided shows a reasonably chunky hangar but perhaps not quite large enough for an Oryx.

I suspect the Oryx Mk.2 would be the most likely candidate, I wonder where they may have sourced dipping sonar/MAD from though?

 

[kaiserbill]

Excellent, Hood. That was impressively quick!
Thanks.
That's what I was surmising..that perhaps a "modified FS1500" would be selected.
The Southern Ocean/Atlantic can be notoriously rough, plus operations over the decades with the Royal Navy would have instilled a desire and need for a minimum level of quality of equipment on a vessel designed to serve for 30 years.

It's a pity the increased length figure is lost in the gutter, so to speak. The increased length, beam of 11.7 and tonnage to 2400 is sufficient to operate the Oryx in my view. Especially if careful attention was paid to other weapon systems wrt topweight.

As to to dipping sonar etc...who knows.
There were local companies working on naval electronics, including local sonar. Also, a local upgraded ASW torpedo. Graugrun posted some stuff earlier.
The other option was simply to buy overseas, via intermediaries. South Africa seemed to have little issues there on many items.

 

[Hood]

It's a pity the increased length figure is lost in the gutter, so to speak. The increased length, beam of 11.7 and tonnage to 2400 is sufficient to operate the Oryx in my view. Especially if careful attention was paid to other weapon systems wrt topweight.

Judging by the drawings and doing some rough scaling calculations, the 2,400 ton version works out about circa 108m long. The flightdeck would be around 18.2m long.

 

[kaiserbill]

That sounds spot on. I did a quick and dirty estimate for less than 30 seconds and estimated 106-110m.
Your estimate is of a ship only marginally smaller than the modified Rothesays of the SAN, but with larger aviation facilities than the Type 12.
Interesting to note the ship design is the FG2500, implying a weight around 2500t. The article uses the term "a standard displacement of about 2400t" if I'm reading correctly.
It would be interesting to learn more about this design. I did an admittedly quick Google search, but nothing came up.

 

[Graugrun]

Sandock Austral, Vard sign cooperation agreement​

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/sandock-austral-vard-sign-cooperation-agreement/

 

[Graugrun]

Project Hotel survey vessel to be delivered in 2023​

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/project-hotel-survey-vessel-to-be-delivered-in-2023/

 

[Graugrun]

Some more info and pics following on from my post #118 above...

Sonar - 3D imaging​

The CSIR’s sonar research group focuses on the development of wet-end sonar transducers and arrays for specialised underwater applications.
Recent research projects have resulted in technology for high resolution (mm-scale) 3D imaging, high bandwidth/data-rate underwater data communications, and synthetic aperture array sonar for application on an underwater vehicle. The team is well positioned to work on custom sonar system development projects and is interested to hear from companies in this regard.
To facilitate the transition of research and development outputs to market/field use, the team has established a small-volume manufacturing capability that ensures that full-configuration management is performed and manufacturing procedures can be tested and finalised before technology transfer. As an example of work done, the team manufactured the majority of the sonar transducers currently in service on the South African Navy surface and submarine vessels.
Projects are undertaken within a quality management system compliant with ISO 9001, in collaboration with the South African Navy and Armscor.

https://www.csir.co.za/sonar

 

[Graugrun]

First Multi-Mission patrol vessel handed over to the SA Navy.​

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/first-multi-mission-patrol-vessel-handed-over-to-the-sa-navy/

Built In South Africa, but to a slightly modified foreign design.

 

[THO88]

Came upon this article (https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2017-11-16-declassified-apartheid-profits-german-u-boats/) about the purchase of submarine blueprints (specifically type 1650) from west Germany. Pretty cool as the author has scans of actual declassified documents. What was most surprising to me is PW Botha went directly to the German Chancellor, Helmut Kohl, requesting assistance with delivery of the blueprints.

Official project name for delivery of the design & production package was "Project Tamboeryn". Contract start was in August of 1984 and would culminate in December of 1986 with delivery of a design model.

Two questions I'm left pondering

1) What is the type 1650? I assume since the blueprints were from HDW, the sub would be a type 209 but the biggest variant of the 209 is a 1500 ton version operated by India. Is it possible an even larger 1650 ton variant was to be built by SA?

2) If the final design model was to be delivered in December 1986, when would the first boat have been completed?

 

[THO88]

From the two books I had a look through this weekend, Armscor by James P McWilliams, and Those Who had the Power by Badenhorst and Victor, some interesting points emerge.

South Africa was close to directly purchasing actual Type 209's in the early 1980's from HDW but the final purchase was scuttled due to the foreign minister Hans Dietrich Genscher requesting that the various departments and manufacturers adhere to the arms embargo. On his June 1984 visit to the FRG, President PW Botha apparently requested Helmet Kohl to approve the sale of submarine plans to South Africa.

Of the money paid by South Africa, HDW in Kiel returned R21 Million, whilst IKL in Lubeck retained R10,5 million. The second book speculated that South Africa's submarine programme "might" have been called "Project Thoroughbred". The variant the South Africans were interested in was a Type 209 class "1650", based apparently on the Type 209 1500 SSK's built for India.

When the blueprint sale broke in Germany, it caused a political furore which implicated HDW, IKL, Helmut Kohl, as well as Franz Josef Struass, who had previously attempted to get HDW to build up to 8 SSK's for diect sale to South Africa.

In November 1987, South Africa's Defence Minister Magnus Malan indicated that a project was already underway to build submarines locally, with 4 boats to be built by Sandock Austral for delivery from/or by 1992. Clearly this was in the early phases and was probably cancelled along with many other programmes in the dramatic 1989 slashing of the defence budget.

Going back through this thread, I was able to answer my own question via a post from kaiserbill in 2010.

The scanned SAN document from the article just confirms the sub would have been a type 209/1650. I would like to find out some more design specs, though.

1992 sounds like a reasonable date for the delivery of the first submarine. Probably 4 years from 1986 to develop the local infrastructure, procure material and design the C4I suite, then an additional 2 years to actually build the first boat.

 

[kaiserbill]

I haven't registered to read that article..but..

The Type 209 submarines had internal designations, such as 1100, 1300, 1400, 1500..etc that roughly corresponded to either their standard or surfaced displacement.
The largest, as you noted, was the Type 209 1500 for India.
I have always assumed a Type 209 1650 would have been a larger variant again, displacing roughly 1650t standard or surfaced.

The convention became blurred as the Type 209 got modified, with some existing Type 209 submarines being rebuilt and made larger during their service lives.

It is worth noting that South Africa wanted larger submarines than the Daphne class, as they had found submarines to be useful to stealthily place special forces teams deep behind into enemy/neighbouring countries, such as was done in Angola and Mozambique.
The Daphne's were found to be a little too small for their needs to be really useful in this.
They were also looking at placing missiles of some description into submarines, according to the book Those who had the Power.

A larger variant of the Type 209 1500 would thus make sense.

 

[Graugrun]

This is the cumulation of our successfull project to build our own periscopes for our Daphne submarine upgrade many years ago. First Ziess bought shares in our Eloptro, then Hensoldt bought out that share.

The SERO-250 is completely South African designed and built - as the article states it has been installed in the submarines of the South Korean, Greek, Portuguese, Turkish and various other navy's submarines (Type 209 and similar).

Hensoldt South Africa to supply submarine periscope to South American navy​

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featur...y-submarine-periscope-to-south-american-navy/

 

[kaiserbill]

On another thread, this link to an article was posted:

An Alternative to the SA Navy's Corvettes [Institute for Security Studies, 1996-10-01]

The passage I'm interested in is this:

Since the early 1970s the South African Navy has been trying to replace its type 12 Whitby class anti-submarine frigates which were bought under the Simon's Town Agreement in the early sixties.​

​

There were several projects: Taurus in co-operation with Portugal; Burlap, a local design; Picnic in France, and during the last five years two further attempts. All these projects, except Picnic which was cancelled by France in 1978, were cancelled due to the lack of funds.​

I assume "Picnic" was a project name?
Was Picnic the A69 Aviso programme?