South African eGlas 35mm single/Other?

[kaiserbill]

Hi all

I have the picture below that is a South African project labelled as the eGlas 35mm. Looks to be a single anti-aircraft weapon.

Anybody have any further info on this project?

 

[Apophenia]

First prototype was completed in 1992 but development stopped due to lack of SASDF interest. In Sept 1994, Marconi and LIW announced Nemesis, a jointly-marketed eGLaS with Marconi Apache weapons control radar. eGlaS had 55-rd belts feeding from either side.

Janes: The eGLaS 35 is a towed 35 mm anti-aircraft gun system being developed by the LIW Division of Denel. It has one GA 35 cannon. The gunner's sight is a roof-mounted stabilised periscope fitted with a laser range-finder. There is an optional stabilised optical sight with thermal imager and an auto-tracker.

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks Apophenia.

Do you know what applications the eGlas was meant for? It looks designed possibly to be mounted on a vehicle, especially with the Nutria Brown paintwork ..... perhaps as a bolt-on replacement for the 20mm Ystervark? Or perhaps the Zumlac twin 23mm? Probably the latter due to size?

 

[Apophenia]

Sorry kaiserbill, I don't. An Ystervark replacement makes sense but the refs I saw all said towed not vehicle mounted.

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks Apophenia. I have some basic info on the twin 35mm SPAAG mounted on the Rooikat chassis to post.

 

[kaiserbill]

I was wondering if the eGlas is basically a single towed version of the system used in the Rooikat twin 35mm SPAAG, with simplified sighting devices?

 

[Apophenia]

You're right, the ZA-SPADS (or ZA 35) also used the GA 35 guns (which some sources identify as the M-35). The SA-HV mentioned in your posted article was the SAHV-3 Umkhonto missile. This was to arm the ZA 35's SPAAM counterpart, the ZA-HVM (4 x SAHV-3-IR). Kentron produced prototypes of both vehicles which used essentially the same base turret.

[As a further aside, the Polish PZA Loara project used a related turret (but with Oerlikon guns). And, surprise, one missile option for Loara-M was SAHV-3 -- at least for the Indian Army bidding.]

AFAIK, the only GA 35 applications have been twin naval AA guns. SAHV-3 is usually thought of as a naval weapon but it was designed to be an interchangable Crotale/Cactus replacement for land forces.

For more on your illustrated ZA 35/ZSU T-72 project see:
ZA 35 photo -- http://pvo.guns.ru/other/sar/zsu_t72/index.htm
ZSU T-72 4-view -- http://pvo.guns.ru/images/other/zsu_t72/tiv_99_10_zsu_sa_drw_.jpg

Related unbuilt projects were the GA 35 turret on the G6 or Centurion hulls. Other unbuilt GA 35 projects were the Rooikat 35 IFV (with single-bbl GA 35) and the Rooikat 35/ZT-3 DFS/AT vehicle (single-bbl GA 35 and ZT-3 Swift AT missile).

 

[JFC Fuller]

Whilst we are on the subject of South African gun/vehicle projects I just have a couple of unresolved questions regarding the Rooikat IFV. i have seen it mentioned several times but I have never seen a picture of one, whenever a picture of a Rooikat IFV is posted it is the tank destroyer variant that could not carry infantry. So did an actual IFV variant exist? Was it just a proposal? I am aware that at one point there was a 6 x APC developed by South African company but I cant remember which one but I recall that the design was sold to a US company and developed into an 8 x 8.

 

[CostasTT]

Quite some time ago I had found two small pics of the Rooikat IFV (here combined into one image)


I think the other vehicle you mention is the Technical Solutions Group, Inc. Gator.

 

[JFC Fuller]

ContasTT,

Spot on with the Krokodil/Gator.

The Rooikat IFV looks like it is going to be very short on internal space, does anyone have any idea how many dismounts it was meant to carry, if it was meant to carry any at all?

Kind regards sealordlawrence.

 

[CostasTT]

Some very basic info, still no word on squad size:

Infantry Combat Vehicle Technology Demonstrator (ICVTD)

South Africa's major military vehicle manufacturer, Reumech OMC, developed a prototype of the vehicle that could be the next-generation Infantry Combat Vehicle (ICV) for the South African Army. The vehicle has a combat weight in the 25 ton-region. The vehicle is still unnamed, and is provisionally being called the Rooikat ICV Technology Demonstrator (ICVTD). The vehicle was originally developed as an alternative front-engined drive-train prototype for the Rooikat (Afrikaans for the African Lynx) armoured car project.

The production model has a rear-fitted 10 cylinder water-cooled diesel with turbo charger. Like the production Rooikat, this is an 8x8 with the front four wheels power steered. The ICVTD has a ramp at the rear that allows access to the troop compartment. The vehicle mounts a Ratel-20 turret. It also has a loose top deck and could conceivably alternate between a small turret, such as the Ratel's or a large turret, with a much bigger turret ring, such a that of the Rooikat.

The vehicle was built in the early 1980's and was dusted off for the DEXSA ‘98 to show the rest of the world that South Africa already then gave thought to the currently fashionable wheeled heavy ICV concept. Similar in appearance to recent European designs like Vextra and the tri-national project, it was built in 1982 and then abandoned.

The vehicle is on par with the GIAT Vexstra and the Anglo-Franco-German GTK/MRAV/VBCI project. Armor-wise the vehicle is identical to the present Rooikat. That means it is protected against landmine blasts up to TM 46 size under a wheel, proof against NATO 7.62mm AP all round and can withstand 23mm AP rounds on a 60 degree frontal arc (South African vehicles damaged or lost to enemy fire during cross-border operations in southern Angola in the 1980s generally fell foul of Russian-made ZU-23-2 AA guns used in a ground role).

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rsa/icvtd.htm

 

[CostasTT]

Back to the eGlas:

 

[kaiserbill]

Whilst we are on the subject of South African gun/vehicle projects I just have a couple of unresolved questions regarding the Rooikat IFV. i have seen it mentioned several times but I have never seen a picture of one, whenever a picture of a Rooikat IFV is posted it is the tank destroyer variant that could not carry infantry. So did an actual IFV variant exist? Was it just a proposal? I am aware that at one point there was a 6 x APC developed by South African company but I cant remember which one but I recall that the design was sold to a US company and developed into an 8 x 8.

The prototype, as posted in CostaTT's first two images, is at the Museum of Armour collection at Bloemfontein. This particular example no longer has the Ratel 20mm turret as posted above. I'm not sure whether the Ratel 20mm turret fitment was purely a temporary thing, as I thought the Ratel replacement was to have a heavier gun in the 30/35mm class.

Either way, I got my sister and brother in law to go over to the museum and take some pics of the Rooikat ICV, which I can post if you are interested. It is larger than the Rooikat, and I suspect that officer on the left in the first image is a large man indeed! The vehicle is in relatively poor condition, but I have photos of it externally and internally.

There were also other 8x8 vehicles that were designed in South Africa to replace the Ratel of which I have pictures of.

 

[kaiserbill]

You're right, the ZA-SPADS (or ZA 35) also used the GA 35 guns (which some sources identify as the M-35). The SA-HV mentioned in your posted article was the SAHV-3 Umkhonto missile. This was to arm the ZA 35's SPAAM counterpart, the ZA-HVM (4 x SAHV-3-IR). Kentron produced prototypes of both vehicles which used essentially the same base turret.


Related unbuilt projects were the GA 35 turret on the G6 or Centurion hulls. Other unbuilt GA 35 projects were the Rooikat 35 IFV (with single-bbl GA 35) and the Rooikat 35/ZT-3 DFS/AT vehicle (single-bbl GA 35 and ZT-3 Swift AT missile).

You wouldn't perhaps have pictures of the missile ZA-HVM would you? I've got a small image of what appears to be the Rooikat armed with a single 35mm gun and ZT-3 anti tank missiles as found in the Ratel ZT-3. Any further images would be greatly appreciated. Costa, nice image by the way.... thanks

 

[JFC Fuller]

Kaiserbill,

If you could post photos of the Rooikat ICV it would be fantastic, perhaps we could start another thread dedicated to Ratel replacements?

Thank you, sealordlawrence.

 

[kaiserbill]

Kaiserbill,

If you could post photos of the Rooikat ICV it would be fantastic, perhaps we could start another thread dedicated to Ratel replacements?

Thank you, sealordlawrence.

Good idea. Let me get my ducks in a row and I'll start the thread tomorrow morning.

 

[JFC Fuller]

Thanks for that Kasierbill, I am looking forward to it!

 

[Apophenia]

As am I!

BTW, was the Rooikat Combat Vehicle Electric Drive simply a technology demonstrator or was it intended to be applied to proposed production models such as the IFV?

 

[kaiserbill]

As am I!

BTW, was the Rooikat Combat Vehicle Electric Drive simply a technology demonstrator or was it intended to be applied to proposed production models such as the IFV?

I'm not really sure. I may have some literature at home, if the wife hasn't thrown it out.

 

[kaiserbill]

Apophenia, do you know of any pictures of the anti-aircraft missile version of the Rooikat air-defence vehicle? I think you mentioned early on that there was a prototype constructed?

 

[kaiserbill]

Another image of the Rooikat twin 35mm SPAAG, as well as the single 35mm Rooikat with ZT-3 anti-tank missile battery.

 

[kaiserbill]

Does anyone have any further info of any potential air defence systems mounted on the G6 artillery system 6x6 platform. I remember years back there was speculation any system fielded by South Africa would look at the Rooikat and G6 as platforms. I have only seen a model labelled as the British Marksman in model form, and if true, this being obviously a post apartheid concept.

 

[JAZZ]

I think the marksman was introduced, when BAE brought into the S.A Arms industry - better photo of Marksmanon G6 Rhino platform.

 

[Apophenia]

Apophenia, do you know of any pictures of the anti-aircraft missile version of the Rooikat air-defence vehicle? I think you mentioned early on that there was a prototype constructed?

I don't know of an image but the turret of the Polish Loara-M should be the same (although I don't know if the Poles intended to use the SAHV-3 missile).

[Edit: not quite the same thing but the Poles have mocked up Loara-M on the Patria AMV Rosomak.]
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8899.0.html

 

[suntan]

Hi all, just some more detailed info on this subject. the eGLas35 was developed as a private venture as a competitor for Oerlikon-Contraves' GDF-005. this was demonstrated as a cheaper alternative to the 005. the gun system was never intended for the SANDF but purely as an export model. the 35DPG as mounted on the Valour Class SA Navy ships is based on the technologies of eGLas and the ZA-35 and incoporated all the lessons learned over the years. on some other posts. the Marconi Marksman turret was never offered to the SANDF but was a joint effort for an international order never realised. oh eglas is an afrikans acronym for " single barrel towed AA system" i.e (enkel loop Gesleepte lugafweer stelsel). best regards

 

[kaiserbill]

Welcome aboard suntan! This is a wonderful community where I'm sure you'll enjoy yourself.

Suntan also mentioned earlier in a message to me:

The photo is the very first proto, there were 3 variations done leading to the final version that was much improved of which I have the photo's. This project lead directly to the development of the twin 35mm DPG as mounted on the Valour class frigates of the SA Navy, the DPG combined the lessons learned form the SPAAG system as well as eGLas.

What was the timeframe of the project?

 

[kaiserbill]

Suntan, do you have any further pictures of the eGlas system that you could post up. I think you mentioned you had some other pictures, including the design team?

 

[miker]

Regarding the Rooikat with the 35mm AA turrent. I knew one of the WOs working on the project from SA AA & he told me it went tits up because of the overheating problem with the electronics in the turrent, & the money to fix the problem just wasn't available. So it was cancelled, shame really.

 

[suntan]

Hi all, Kaiserbill; eGLas35 ran from 991 till about 1996 where most of the design team ahd been moving over to the 35DPG naval mount. Miker, the main reason for the cancellation of the ZA35 was costs in general but most importantly the Bush/Angolan war had come to an end. When the ZA35 project started and remember just about every sub-system had to be developed locally, guns, radar, EOT's this in itself was a major achievement and the system eventually met all the design requirements. Also the average age of the team was about 27 years old! the SA Army never could address the air threat in angola properly and thats why there were numerous 20mm & 23mm vehicle mounted solutions adopted and the Cactus (Crotale) missile also wasnt very effective against the angolan CAP's which were flown mainly by East German/Cuban/Russian advisors. herewith some pictures of eglas35, 35DPG and the ZA35 on a T72 chassis.

 

[miker]

Well I'm glad they did sort the 35mm turret out, it was in "die kak" in '93.

Angola, it was a plane spotters paradise, if you didn't mind the odd bomb dropping near you that is ;D However 32Bn's AA troop did shoot down a Mig23. I don't know who was more surprised the pilot or the gunner.

MikeR

 

[kaiserbill]

Welcome aboard Miker. Was the 32Bn mig shootdown achieved with the Ystervark 20mm? If so, it must have been impressive as it is an open sight system?

Suntan, great photos! I've never seen one of the T-72 35mm SPAAG, just drawings.

 

[miker]

Bill, ja it was a 20mm, as far as I remember they had the small radar for a bit of early warning & the rest was done by the gunner. That small radar was only turned on & of quickly so as not to give away it was operating to the MIG's detectors. The AAA troop really just worked of the "vib" as to the direction of the incoming attack. They were getting in a lot of practice though ;D

Quite an effort I always thought. Their TSM was the guy who told me about the troubles of the twin 35 system, he went to that project after we were moved to Pomfret, and our Support Group was sent back to their orginal units.

MikeR

 

[miker]

the SA Army never could address the air threat in angola properly

G'day Suntan,

Mate here are some of the other efforts I saw or heard about in Angola to counter the air threat:

SAM 9 : The Recces had a captured one which they tried to use around Mavinga. The one time they had a good lock-on the missle box firing cap didn't open, too bad, so sad.

SAAF : I watched the MIG 23, Mirage dogfight from the back of a Casspir. That didn't work out well, we lost our plane & pilot; their man just ejected, he didn't need to be worried about saving an airframe!

SA AAA 35mm : One troop was taken in late in Modular with FC eqpt. It was the devils job to bundu bash it all to where it could be used. However they did hit several MIGs, but they didn't have AP ammo, so there were no kills. But they forced the FAA to fly higher, making their attacks even more ineffectual than normal.

Crotrale : This system was taken North the same time as the 35s, more pain & suffering driving such a low slung critter through the bush. I think they had a least one successful launch. But problems with the crew caused them to be withdrawn!

Your right mate we just basically just hid out from enemy air. Apart from the Ystervaaks with the 20 mils we didn't do at all well.

MikeR

 

[suntan]

Morning MikeR,

some good info, great.

the SAM-9 was still floating around and was on display at one of the early AAD/DEXSA shows at waterkloof AB, I have an idea it's at the war museum??

the 35mm GDFs were eventually towed on their undercarriages with wheels folded up. really not very good for the system!!. there is an interesting side note to the 35mm deployment in Rundu at the wars end. the Angolan forces forces were planning and were on the point of executing a full multi-fighter attack on Rundu, the Sa army eventually built up mock-up 35mm AAA units using the unique camo nets form the 35mm system with poles sticking out form under the camo nets. at the wars end the angolans explained they didnt attack as a result in the major build up of AAA elements at the camp!!!

During the war there were a number of cactus launchers but never successful this led to the eventual upgrade (but not deployed) using the SAHV missile which would have been a far better system. on a lighter note the SAAF always operated the cactus as they didnt trust the SA Army shooting missiles at aircraft!!!!

 

[miker]

Sunny mate you have to be joking! Dragged on their undercarriages, wheels folded, "die boer maak a plan" but that's crazy, did you ever travel over that track? I did, I think somebody was drawing a long bow there, it was far to rough for that.

I do know that when the guns & FC unit reached Marvinga, they were U/S & had to await spares from Rundu, before deploying further forward. The trip up had been too much for the beautiful Swiss engineering.

I had a chuckle over that deception plan at Rundu.

Ah yes I can well understand the SAAF's desire not to have us launching missiles anywhere near their precious aeroplanes. The SAHV on the Rooikat chassis must have been causing heartburn at SAAF HQ ;D I saw some photos of the mockup for that in Janes AA Systems a few years ago. What happened to that project?

MikeR

 

[suntan]

MikeR,

nope the missile upgrade was putting SAHV in place of the cactus missile, the SP-Rooikat version of the missile was ever only a mock-up. the Cactus-SAHV replacement was an excellent upgrade but came to late but nailed every target it was launched at including on one occasion accidently shooting down the SKUA drone -- which made it really an expensive exercise.

the 35mm systems used there were trash when they were withdrawn back to RSA.

 

[miker]

Trashed was the word!

Why in heaven's name weren't they flown to Mavinga, instead of being bundu bashed for 100s of klicks over a terrible track, that had already been torn up by the tanks?

At my first Dexa I saw the Armscor T-72 with a SAHV launcher unit, that was the first time the "new" Crotrale was made public I think. That is/was a great bit of engineering, the old Crotrale has gone on to SAHV, & Umkontho, very adaptable & no doubt cost effective.

MikeR

 

[kaiserbill]

Signals intelligence/intercepts showed that the Cuban/East German pilots took note of the different smoke trail after the Cactus/Crotale firings, leading them to deduce correctly that a more capable SAM was being used. This had the effect of increasing their operational altitude from them on, which did nothing for their already dismal ground attack results.

The SAHV (later developed into the Umkhonto) was, as stated, designed to equip the existing Cactus/Crotale vehicle launchers. However, the Rooikat SAM vehicle was to be developed as well, due to the fact that the Cactus/Crotale vehicle was designed for airfield, or urban deployment. It simply was too fragile to be used in the African bush hundreds of kilometers from civilisation. Hence the Rooikat version for bundu-bashing with the rest of the armour units...

Miker, when you saw that SAHV T-72 at DEXSA, what was it? A real vehicle, mock-up or drawing?

 

[miker]

Bill, it was the real T72, with a very real looking radar acquistion unit & launcher arms. The Armscor bloke standing by told me the missles were fair dinkum, in that they were under development, drill rounds on display.

Sorry that's as much as I can remmber about the unit, I don't think this development went anywhere though. I never saw it again at a DEXA, I think it was shown at the first show held at AFB Waterkloof, about '93?

MikeR