SNCAC (Hanriot) NC-510 Army co-operation aircraft prototypes

[Caravellarella]

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the SNCAC (Hanriot) NC-510 3 seat army co-operation prototype of 1938. The "Triplace de Travail" or "T3" which was designed to cover a range of other duties including observation, tactical reconnaissance and light bombing. The two NC-510 prototypes proved unsatisfactory and a new programme for a revised NC-530 was started by the former Hanriot design team at SNCAC.....

The article comes from the 15th January 1969 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Dear Boys and Girls, there is a much more comprehensive article in French about the SNCAC (Hanriot) NC-510 prototypes (both of which differed considerably) and the other 3 seat army co-operation "Triplace de Travail" prototypes (Dewoitine D.720, Potez 566 & Potez 220) in the April 1999 issue No. 353 of Le Fana de l'Aviation. I believe a second article appeared in the next issue......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Tophe]

In the Trait d'Union #214 (Mar-Apr 2004) is a lot about the Hanriot H-240 (A19 requirement of 1936, NC-510) family: comparative 3-view of both prototypes, photograph of the 1st, 3-view and photograph of the derivative NC-530 prototype, mention of the project derivatives NC-511 (engines Renault 12 R0/1 of 450hp), NC-512 (Lorraine Algol of 450hp), NC-513 (14M 4/5 engines), NC-520 (project that will be turned into NC-530), NC-531 (530 with retractable landing gears and Renault 12 R0/1 engines of 450hp) and NC-532 (the same with Gnôme-Rhône 14N 48/49 of 1,180hp).

 

[Maveric]

In the Trait d'Union #214 (Mar-Apr 2004) is a lot about the Hanriot H-240 (A19 requirement of 1936, NC-510) family: comparative 3-view of both prototypes, photograph of the 1st, 3-view and photograph of the derivative NC-530 prototype, mention of the project derivatives NC-511 (engines Renault 12 R0/1 of 450hp), NC-512 (Lorraine Algol of 450hp), NC-513 (14M 4/5 engines), NC-520 (project that will be turned into NC-530), NC-531 (530 with retractable landing gears and Renault 12 R0/1 engines of 450hp) and NC-532 (the same with Gnôme-Rhône 14N 48/49 of 1,180hp).

Can you post the info´s about the H.240?


Thanks

 

[Tophe]

From the same magazine: "In answer to the A19 requirement, the Hanriot company proposed the H-240, with two engines Algol Lo 9 Na of 450hp, driving two-blade propellers with fix angle. It was a high wing airplane, having a fixed landing gear with spats. It was classified as "disposable machine", with wood and metal building and fabric cover. A prototype was ordered on August 23rd 1937. A few days later, the company proposed another project, more suited to the requirement, named NC-510 (with engines of either 450hp, or 670hp, or 750hp) and 3 prototypes of this one were ordered on August 28th 1937."

 

[Maveric]

no pic or drawing? :'(

 

[Arjen]

You asked for it, you got it.
From 'Warplanes of the Second World War: Bombers and Reconnaissance Aircraft, Volume Eight' by William Green, Macdonald 1967.

 

[Maveric]

So you will say: the Hanriot H-240 is the same like NC-510???

 

[Arjen]

the Hanriot H-240 is the same like NC-510?

I might be wrong, but yes, that's what I understand Tophe is saying.
Tophe:

...Hanriot H-240 (A19 requirement of 1936, NC-510) family...

 

[Tophe]

So you will say: the Hanriot H-240 is the same like NC-510???

Uh, not exactly: the H-240 project is the father of the NC-510 project:
- the H-240 has fixed landing gear (maybe like the NC-530) not retractable like the NC-510
- the H-240 has 450hp engines, the NC-510 may have three different engines but mostly 750hp
In the spring of 1938, it was decided to replace the 510's low observer bay by a glazed nose (not built this way on the 510 three prototypes, installed on the 530).
The final competitor of the NC-510 was the SNCAM D-700.

 

[Archibald]

Le Fana de l'aviation April 1999 - 353 had some assassine article on the T-3 program. A big waste, according to them. They were not very keen of Hanriot...

 

[Arjen]

Uh, not exactly: the H-240 project is the father of the NC-510 project:

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Maveric]

We have a chance to see a drawing of the H.240... :

 

[burunduk]

- the H-240 has fixed landing gear (maybe like the NC-530) not retractable like the NC-510

But NC-510 had fixed gears :-\

 

[Tophe]

Source: Trait d'Union magazine March-April 2004
At least one of the built NC-510 had retractable landing gears

 

[Tophe]

Source: Trait d'Union magazine March-April 2004

Even in this magazine Nr214, there are discrepant sayings: the NC-510 description reads "the fix landing gear had 4 meters between wheels" while the 2 three-views and the photograph show a retractable landing gear. It seems the preliminary project or final project had fix landing gear while the built prototypes had retractable landing gear.
EDIT: the page has changed, I posted a photograph on page 1.

 

[PhR]

The program for category T3 was first published by the Air Force headquarters in Septembre 1936. It was then formalized by the Air Ministry in December. A second edition was published in February 1938.
Hanriot initially proposed its H.240 project (2xLorraine 9Na 450 hp). After review, its proposal was replaced by the NC.510 which derived from H.240. It seems that the designation H.510 was initially used.
Then the Ministry placed the order 1158/7 for 3 prototypes in August 1938: one NC.510 (2x 9Kfr), one NC.511 (2x GR 14M4/5) and one NC.512. The 3 prototypes seems to have flown, but I know only photos of 01 and 02 (see attached).
Finally, the NC.510-01 was modified to become NC.530 Exp.

 

[Stargazer]

Then the Ministry placed the order 1158/7 for 3 prototypes in August 1938: one NC.510 (2x 9Kfr), one NC.511 (2x GR 14M4/5) and one NC.512. The 3 prototypes seems to have flown, but I know only photos of 01 and 02 (see attached).

Conflicting infos here:

• I have the first prototype NC.510 T3.01 ("avion de travail") with two 750 hp Gnôme-Rhône 9Kjr (not 9Kfr). It had round tail fins.
• I have the second prototype NC.510.02 (recce and trainer) with two 690 hp Gnôme-Rhône 14M engines as the NC.510 M, not the NC.511. It had redesigned tail fins.
• I have the NC.511 and NC.512 as both unbuilt, the former planned with two 450 hp Renault 12R 0/1 engines, the latter with two 450 hp Lorraine Algol engines.
• While NC.510.01 was transformed into NC.530 Expérience, NC.510.02 was apparently modified as NC.513, keeping its GR 14M 4/5 "Mars" engines, but I have no details about that modification.

 

[PhR]

Conflicting infos here:

• I have the first prototype NC.510 T3.01 ("avion de travail") with two 750 hp Gnôme-Rhône 9Kjr (not 9Kfr). It had round tail fins.
• I have the second prototype NC.510.02 (recce and trainer) with two 690 hp Gnôme-Rhône 14M engines as the NC.510 M, not the NC.511. It had redesigned tail fins.
• I have the NC.511 and NC.512 as both unbuilt, the former planned with two 450 hp Renault 12R 0/1 engines, the latter with two 450 hp Lorraine Algol engines.
• While NC.510.01 was transformed into NC.530 Expérience, NC.510.02 was apparently modified as NC.513, keeping its GR 14M 4/5 "Mars" engines, but I have no details about that modification.

Hi Stargazr.
Of course, I know what have been published about these planes. Nevertheless, I disagree.
Usually, I prefer working from primary sources when possible. In that case, the information I wrote comes from Air Ministry archives. I attach few samples about A19 program follow-up synthesis documents, but many other ones confirm what I wrote above.
Maybe the proposed projects of NC.511 Renault 12R and 512 Algol were never built, but at least one NC.511 Renault and one NC.512 14N were ordered.

 

[PhR]

I also add a photo showing that the designation Hanriot 510 was also oficially used, not only NC.510.

 

[PhR]

Conflicting infos here:

• I have the first prototype NC.510 T3.01 [...]. It had round tail fins.
• I have the second prototype NC.510.02[...]. It had redesigned tail fins.

Another point here: the NC.510-01 also received the redesigned tail fins during fall 1938, before its transformation into NC.510M by replacing its engines in January 1939 (the 01, not the 02) and later into NC.530 Exp in June 1939. So it is not possible on the photos to distinguish the 01 and the 02 based on their fins.
The configuration of these planes changed several times during their study as projects, and also during their life as prototypes. It is very difficult to follow in detail their career. The SNCAC was not as strict as others on the usage of designations. That not helps.

 

[Stargazer]

Another point here: the NC.510-01 also received the redesigned tail fins during fall 1938, before its transformation into NC.510M by replacing its engines in January 1939 (the 01, not the 02)

Philippe, I can't argue with someone who knows a lot more than I do... And of course I also prefer it when original documents are shown! That being said, allow me to make a few comments about what you just shared:

• The photo you shared with the round tails from a cover of La Vie Aérienne is not the only evidence of the designation H.510 being used. Here is a detail from a later photo with modified oval fins that has "SNCA Centre H.510 n° 01" on its tail. I totally agree that the tail fin business on the prototypes is not clearcut, and that many changes occurred along the way.
  ​
• Your archive documents show the program the way it was planned, not necessarily what really happened in the end... You'll agree of course that "ordered" doesn't mean the aircraft were actually procured, let alone built. There are many examples where orders were either cancelled (NC.520 is proof), or modified along the way. I also wish to remind you that, in another topic, you said yourself that the NC.511 was not built, and served as a preliminary study for the 510.
  ​
• You seem to imply that the NC.510 M was simply the first NC.510 modified, but can you provide evidence of this? Most sources describe them as two separate prototypes. Besides, the second document you shared does NOT mention the NC.511, but two different NC.510 prototypes (one with Gnôme-Rhône engines, one with Renault engines). To me, this is further proof that the NC.510 and NC.510 M were always two separate prototypes, and also that procurement of the NC.511 was probably cancelled and replaced with that of a second NC.510.
  ​
• What was the meaning of the suffix "M" for that prototype, anyway? Couldn't have been "military", because both prototypes were... Couldn't have been "Marine" because the aircraft was meant for the Armée de l'Air... It's not its mission either, because it was for reconnaissance and training, and was designated as a "T3" anyway. The only thing that makes sense to me, therefore, is to indicate the presence of Gnôme-Rhône 14M "Mars" engines, to distinguish it from the regular NC.510.​

 

[PhR]

• View attachment 744284 Besides, the second document you shared does NOT mention the NC.511, but two different NC.510 prototypes (one with Gnôme-Rhône engines, one with Renault engines).​

This is also not clear for me, as the usual definition published about the NC.511 is a NC.510 with Renault engines.
For me, the facts are the following:
- French State placed an official order 1158/7 the 28th October 1937 for 3 "T3" prototypes: 1x NC.510, 1x NC.511 and 1x NC.512. Unfortunately, I do not have the successive amendments to this contract. This is the only reference that could formally clarify what was finally built and tested. 3 prototypes flown, but finally, none was delivered. We only have evidences that the 01 was designated "510" (sometimes Hanriot, sometimes SNCA Centre). The initial engines of the 01 were Lorraine Algol. The 02 received different engines, smaller with 3-blade propeller, apparently Gnome-Rhône 14M (with no accent on "Gnome"), which does not correspond to the supposed description of the NC.511, neither to the initial order.
So, for the moment, it is not possible to conclude if the 02 was flown as a NC.510 or 511.
Additional difficulties: the SNCAC prototypes not always wear their designation in their tail fins as other manufacturers usually do. Even when it is the case, it was changed many times, and not always readable on photos.

What was the meaning of the suffix "M" for that prototype, anyway?

"M" stands for "Modified".

Most sources describe them as two separate prototypes

Which ones?

 

[Stargazer]

Which ones?

Airplanes of the Second World War Volume 8, by William Green and Gordon Swanborough, for example.
I'm sure I've seen others but I need to search for them.

 

[PhR]

Airplanes of the Second World War Volume 8, by William Green and Gordon Swanborough, for example.
I'm sure I've seen others but I need to search for them.

I checked, but I do not see any mention of NC.510M.
For information, the chapters of these books about French planes were written by Pierre Leyvastre.

 

[Stargazer]

I checked, but I do not see any mention of NC.510M.
For information, the chapters of these books about French planes were written by Pierre Leyvastre.

True, it doesn't say "NC.510 M" but it does give two distinct NC.510 aircraft (01 and 02), with only the first one being a T3.

 

[PhR]

This is completely coherent with what I have written above: the NC.510-01 was modified several times, it became NC.510M for "modified" in January 1939, and then transformed into NC.530 Exp in June.

The second prototype was built directly with new 14M engines. It was first presented during an Airshow. It was initially ordered as "NC.511", but the photos I have are not precise enough to read the inscription on its tail during the show, as seen here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ration-aircraft-prototypes.12658/#post-719096.
After, all indications were removed from its tails, as seen attached. Leyvastre called it "NC.510". It would means that the designation NC.511 was abandoned, this is possible, but I don't have any clue of this.

The third prototype, initially ordered as NC.512 has apparently flown, but I never seen any photos.