Triton said:Even when the cost goes down, the CH-53K is likely to remain the most expensive helicopter in the world.
Hilarious. If not the CH-53K then which helicopter SHOULD be "the most expensive helicopter in the world"?
Triton said:Even when the cost goes down, the CH-53K is likely to remain the most expensive helicopter in the world.
Triton said:His top three ground priorities – the Amphibious Combat Vehicle to replace the AAVs, the Joint Light Tactical Vehicle to replace Humvees and the Ground/Air Task Oriented Radar (G/ATOR) – are progressing well, he said. JLTV is in procurement, ACV is set to begin testing two competitors’ vehicles this spring, and USNI News understands the Marine Corps is getting ready to accept the first G/ATOR.
The Marine Corps and Northrop Grumman hosted a rollout ceremony for the new G/ATOR radar system for the Corps March 29, 2017. Northrop Grumman will produce 45 of these new radar systems for the Marine Corps by 2024.
I do as well. Army bailed because cost projections put it at over $100M a copy for the aircraft.fredymac said:The whole "sea-basing" idea also relies on effective heavy lift as an important element. I wish the Army and Marines could have gotten together during the vertical theater transport effort (quad tilt-rotor, speed agile, etc solutions) in order to pool the quantity buys but there seems to be institutional jealousy in who gets to be in the drivers seat for program control. I hope the Future Vertical Lift program is structured in a way that gets around this.
_Del_ said:When you could have two SSC's and an F-35B for the cost of a pair of Super Stallions, I think raising questions about costs and opportunity costs under budget constraints is pretty fair. Not hilarious. Just me.
yasotay said:I do as well. Army bailed because cost projections put it at over $100M a copy for the aircraft.fredymac said:The whole "sea-basing" idea also relies on effective heavy lift as an important element. I wish the Army and Marines could have gotten together during the vertical theater transport effort (quad tilt-rotor, speed agile, etc solutions) in order to pool the quantity buys but there seems to be institutional jealousy in who gets to be in the drivers seat for program control. I hope the Future Vertical Lift program is structured in a way that gets around this.
sferrin said:_Del_ said:When you could have two SSC's and an F-35B for the cost of a pair of Super Stallions, I think raising questions about costs and opportunity costs under budget constraints is pretty fair. Not hilarious. Just me.
It IS hilarious. "Most expensive helicopter in the world." Okay, which helicopter should logically cost more than a CH-53K. Not more than what a CH-53K DOES cost but which helicopter in the world can you point to and say, "by all rights, that helicopter should cost more than a CH-53K"?
Also, consider the computer CPU in your car. You could get several tires for the price of that CPU (don't believe me, just wait until you have to buy a new one). Why not just tell the dealer you want them to keep the CPU and give you a few extra tires instead? Yes, that's how ridiculous this whole discussion is. You have to have all the pieces.
yasotay said:I do as well. Army bailed because cost projections put it at over $100M a copy for the aircraft.fredymac said:The whole "sea-basing" idea also relies on effective heavy lift as an important element. I wish the Army and Marines could have gotten together during the vertical theater transport effort (quad tilt-rotor, speed agile, etc solutions) in order to pool the quantity buys but there seems to be institutional jealousy in who gets to be in the drivers seat for program control. I hope the Future Vertical Lift program is structured in a way that gets around this.
fredymac said:The CH-53K will be highly applicable to this concept as well as providing heavy equipment lifting capability that no number of smaller helicopters will be able to provide.
The Marine Corps is disputing recent assertions that the CH-53K chopper is more expensive than an F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, as the heavy-lift helicopter program awaits an initial production decision from Pentagon leadership.
During a Monday briefing at the Navy League’s annual Sea-Air-Space conference, Col. Hank Vanderborght sought to clarify the cost of the CH-53K aircraft. The issue stems from a March 10 House Armed Services Committee hearing, during which Rep. Niki Tsongas (D-MA) said a new estimate puts the cost of the CH-53K helicopter at $122 million apiece, or 22 percent more than the original baseline. She compared it to the F-35A conventional-takeoff-and-landing jet, which cost $94.6 million per copy in the Lot 10 buy.
But Vanderborght said outside cost estimates were not accurate, adding that the initial aircraft produced under any aircraft program will naturally be priced higher because of the costs associated with non-recurring engineering and establishing the production line.
He said measuring the first aircraft produced in one program against the 100th produced under another is "comparing apples and oranges." The CH-53K is still under development, with just four test aircraft delivered so far, while the F-35 program had produced nearly 200 aircraft as of December.
"The first unit in a production run costs more than the last unit," Vanderborght said. "It's economies of scale. There are things called learning curves, rate curves and things like that that we use to calculate cost."
The Marine Corps expects the CH-53K’s flyaway unit cost will average $87.1 million in FY-17 dollars over the life of the 200-aircraft program, according to Vanderborght. The flyaway unit cost represents the true price of each aircraft, he said, although it does not account for ancillary program costs such as development or sustainment.
As of August 2016, the CH-53K program acquisition unit cost -- or the average unit price when taking the full cost of the program into account -- is $131.3 million in FY-17 dollars, according to the Government Accountability Office’s March 2017 "Assessments of Selected Weapon Programs" report. Vanderborght said he agrees with that figure.
GAO’s report says the total CH-53K program cost has risen to $26.2 billion in FY-17 dollars -- $6.9 billion in research and development and $19.2 billion planned for procurement. When the program started in 2005, the total program cost was expected to be $17.9 billion in FY-17 dollars, according to GAO.
Initial operational capability is planned for the first quarter of FY-20, with a full-rate production decision expected in FY-21, according to Vanderborght. He said the program has flown more than 400 test flight hours.
The Pentagon's acquisition chief was scheduled to chair a March 30 Defense Acquisition Board meeting on whether to advance the CH-53K program from development into low-rate initial production, Bloomberg reported last week. The defense secretary's office did not respond to requests for comment on the outcome of the meeting.
Vanderborght said the program was ready to move into LRIP. But he confirmed initial production would be delayed under a full-year continuing resolution, unless the CH-53K program receives a waiver from Congress. The ongoing CR runs through the end of April. The Navy requested $436 million in FY-16 to buy two CH-53Ks as part of the first lot of low-rate initial production, according to budget justification documents.
Shifting facilities
The GAO report also describes the challenges the CH-53K program faces in standing up a production line, as the facilities are being moved from Florida to Connecticut because of Lockheed Martin’s November 2015 purchase of CH-53K prime contractor Sikorsky from United Technologies, according to the auditors.
"The move will require a number of equipment and configuration changes to Sikorsky's Stratford[, CT], facility, which will take time to complete and pose risk to the CH-53K production schedule," according to the report. "Program officials continue to assess the potential impacts of the production relocation."
The CH-53K program office, however, said the move to Connecticut "was driven by required capacity and not the Lockheed Martin acquisition."
The fifth system demonstration test article will be the first CH-53K assembled at Sikorsky's Stratford facility early next year, according to Michael Torok, Lockheed's vice president of CH-53K programs.
During the Monday briefing, Torok said the Stratford facility -- which has mostly produced Army Black Hawks and Navy Seahawks over the past decade -- is being modified to accommodate final assembly of the larger CH-53K.
April 04, 2017 |
Justin Doubleday
Pentagon leadership has approved the Marine Corps' developmental CH-53K heavy-lift helicopter to enter production, according to a spokesman.
On April 4, James MacStravic, who is the acting under secretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics, gave the go-ahead for the
$26.2 billion, 200-aircraft program to begin low-rate initial production, according to Pentagon spokesman Cmdr. Patrick Evans.
"From the review, the Senior Official Performing the Duties of the USD(AT&L) determined that the program is ready for the Production and Deployment phase,"
Evans wrote in an email.
The CH-53K helicopter's prime contractor is Sikorsky, now owned by Lockheed Martin. The CH-53K has been developed to carry three times the maximum load of
a legacy CH-53E heavy-lift helicopter. The Navy requested $436 million in fiscal year 2017 to buy two CH-53Ks as part of the first lot of low-rate initial production,
according to budget justification documents. But the program will not be allowed to begin initial production under a continuing resolution. The current CR runs through April 28.
Lately, the cost of the CH-53K has been a contentious point. During an April 3 briefing at the Sea Air Space conference in National Harbor, MD, Col. Hank Vanderborght
disputed recent statements comparing the cost of the CH-53K to the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
Vanderborght, H-53 program manager, said the average cost of a CH-53K chopper would be $87.1 million over the course of the program. But he conceded the average
unit price when taking total program costs, including research and development, into account is $131.3 million in FY-17 dollars, as cited in the Government Accountability Office's
March 2017 "Assessments of Selected Weapon Programs" report
Triton said:Sikorsky CH-53K model on display at the International Helicopter Forum in Bückeburg 2017. Sergei Sikorsky was in attendance.
Source:
https://www.dewezet.de/region/weserbergland_artikel,-stelldichein-der-helikopterexperten-_arid,2384691.html
http://www.flugrevue.de/militaerluftfahrt/kampfflugzeuge-helikopter/hubschrauberforum-bueckeburg-2017/728650?skip=4#4
sferrin said:It might be displayed today but it's still an old model. Look at the trailing edge of the sponsons and then go look at the real one. That changed before even the first one was built.
Colonial-Marine said:Any chance we could see a new MH-53 in the future based off the CH-53K? It seems a shame to me that they retired the Pave Low.
The “proof of concept” test, which Boeing is pursuing under a cooperative research and development agreement
with General Electric and the U.S. Army, would use the new T-408 engine — same engine GE is building for the
Marine Corps’ new Sikorsky CH-53K King — according to Chuck Dabundo, Boeing VP of cargo helicopter
programs. Army Chinooks are currently powered by the Honeywell T-55.
Andrea Shalal
BERLIN (Reuters) - The U.S. military has approved Lockheed Martin Corp’s
new CH-53K heavy-lift helicopter to fly at the Berlin air show
next April, according to two sources familiar with the program.
It will mark the CH-53K’s international debut at time when a German
helicopter competition could start heating up again, said the sources,
who were not authorized to speak publicly.
The German defense ministry is nearing the kickoff of a competition
valued at nearly 4 billion euros ($4.7 billion) between two U.S.
helicopters - Lockheed’s massive Sikorsky CH-53K and the smaller
Boeing Co (BA.N) CH-47 twin-rotor helicopter - to replace its existing
fleet of CH-53G aircraft.
A formal decision on how to structure the competition has stalled as
Chancellor Angela Merkel’s conservatives try to forge a ruling coalition
with the pro-business Free Democrats and the Greens, an endeavor
that could take until the end of the year.
Military sources expect the program to proceed only after a new
government is in place, but say it could be delayed further if the current
defense minister, Ursula von der Leyen, is replaced. Any successor
would want to review major weapons programs like the heavy-lift helicopter.
Europe’s Airbus is also challenging the ministry’s plans,
arguing that German firms should get a big share of the maintenance
and management of the project.
The ministry has pushed back, saying it would be too unwieldy to award
separate contracts for production and sustainment of the planes.
A top general with the Israeli Air Force, which is also considering buying
the new helicopters, flew the aircraft during a 90-minute orientation
flight at a Maryland air base on Nov. 7, a Navy spokesman said on Wednesday.
Brigadier General Nir Nin-Nun, commander of the Israeli Air Force’s air
support and helicopter division, was the first international ally to fly the
new helicopter, the Navy said.
“Flights like this give us an opportunity to strengthen relationships with
our allies while sharing a taste of America’s next-generation heavy lift
helicopter,” said CH-53K program manager U.S. Marine Corps Colonel
Hank Vanderborght.
Israel is considering buying 20 of the helicopters,
while Germany could buy around 40 aircraft.
Bringing the CH-53K helicopter to Berlin will allow military officials to
compare the two aircraft on site. The Navy supports Sikorsky’s effort to
bring an aircraft to the Berlin air show, a spokesman said.
Two Boeing CH-47 Chinook helicopters came to a conference
in Germany in July, but the Lockheed aircraft, just entering production for
the U.S. Marine Corps, was not on site.
Eight other NATO countries already use the CH-47, while Germany
currently flies the CH-53G, an older version of the CH-53K that
Lockheed will offer.
Some German military officials favor the CH-47 which they say is
combat-proven and cheaper, but others say the larger CH-53K
would allow growth in future missions.
The U.S. Marine Corps expects to declare the CH-53K ready for combat
use in 2019. The Marines have said the average cost of the huge aircraft
will be around $88 million per aircraft. The cost could drop somewhat if
Germany, Israel and Japan also buy the planes.
Germany is hoping to start buying planes in 2023, about a year
before that average cost will be achieved.
Experts say it would cost less for Germany to buy the Chinook, but that
helicopter will require several upgrades in coming years that could add
cost. It also carries less, so it takes more flights to accomplish the same
mission.
Beth Parcella, in charge of Lockheed’s drive to win the German contract
for the CH-53K, told Reuters she thought the helicopter still had good
chances in the German competition.
“The price differential is not going to be anywhere as significant as it’s
being portrayed,” she said. “It’s a larger, heavier aircraft, so it’s going to
cost more. But it’s going to be a lot closer than people think.”
She said the new aircraft would also cost far less to service given its on-board diagnostic system.
Sikorsky’s CH-53K King Stallion flew a 90-minute orientation test flight — a “first of its kind,” according to the U.S. Naval Air Systems Command (Navair). The flight was hosted at Navair's Patuxent River, Maryland, facility for Brig. Gen. Nir Nin-Nun, commander of air support and helicopter division for the Israeli Air Force. It occurred during a scheduled test flight.
Navair said yesterday that Nov. 7, the aircraft performed various operational maneuvers, landings and takeoffs. Nin-Nun was able to get a firsthand look at the CH-53K’s full authority fly-by-wire flight controls. He also completed a familiarization flight in the simulator and safety brief before his ride, Navair said. The flight was arranged based on a government-to-government request from Nin-Nun and made possible through a contract modification between Sikorsky and Navair.
“This is the first time we have flown an international ally in the CH-53K,” said U.S. Marine Corps Col. Hank Vanderborght, program manager for the H-53 Heavy Lift Helicopters program office, PMA-261. “Flights like this give us an opportunity to strengthen relationships with our allies while sharing a taste of America’s next generation heavy lift helicopter.”
In April, multiple U.S. senators and representatives targeted Israel to solicit a CH-53K deal. While cost was not explicitly named a motivator for the members of Congress, successful procurement could bring down the price. PMA-261 works with international partners through the Foreign Military Sales program to potentially meet the international partners’ heavy lift helicopter requirements, Navair said. The more helicopters the government sells to international buyers, the more unit cost is decreased for all users. Navair told R&WI in March that the cost per unit is some $87 million at production, not including other costs. The program has come under scrutiny for its high price tag.
There are four engineering development and manufacturing King Stallion models in test, and one ground test vehicle. Together, they have logged more than 606 flight hours, according to Navair. The program is still on track to reach initial operational capability in 2019, which would have four aircraft with combat-ready crews logistically prepared to deploy. Navair said the U.S. Department of Defense’s program of record still calls for 200 aircraft.
Prior to using the JLTV, the program tested various external payloads on
the CH-53K using representative concrete slabs, up to 27,000 pounds. This
year, the test team will expand that external weight envelope up to 36,000 pounds.
sferrin said:That name, "King Stallion", don't tell me you didn't giggle the first time you heard it.
TomS said:It is. I can't find a folded pic of the King Stallion anywhere. Not even a drawing, which is surprising. I mean, they must have folded the beast by this point in testing.