Shenyang J-8II 1968 design

[lion1984]

Ladies and gentlemen, my English is not good, use translation software and you communicate some secret project.

manufacturing company, in 1968 for the J - 8 ii design scheme. Due to the lack of all-weather J - 8 interception ability, so as to increase machine head space. In 1968-8 J prototype, the improving measures are put forward. New solutions to two side inlet, accommodate larger radar. Program code is likely to be "66" program. (J - 8 is 65 program, J - 9 is 67 program)

Compared to the first flight in 1984 J - 8II . the 1968 scheme biggest characteristic is directly adopted the J - 11 (old), the j-10 (old) and DF - 113 of the inlet cone inlet shock wave and the design of the nose. And simplify the design

Later, China from Egypt won a MIG - 23, after the reference to choose nowJ - 8II inlet.

Without the influence of the cultural revolution, in J-9, the J-10 (old) and the J-11 (old), and the scheme may have similar mirage F1 similar inlet.

Is derived from the above comprehensive analysis of China's aviation history. Known a J - 8II shock wave inlet cone, there are orders in the wing and single wing two revisions scheme.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Software translation is fine, thank you for this post, interesting to see how early the J-8II concept was formulated.

 

[Deino]

First of all wellcome here !

But to admit, in parts it sounds reasonably, in other parts I have some reservations to believe.
Could You therefore please provide the source of this information and even more og this three-side drawing ?

But let's discuss:

YES, it sounds reasonable that the J-8II re-used this intake configuration, but most likely simply as a split half-sided design derived from the original J-8. The DF-113 seems unlikely, since it was developed by Harbin and surely not from the J-11 (old), which came only much later ... following my information, concept studies for the original J-8 began in 1964, development of the J-8I began only in 1976 an an improved all-weather version and requirements for a much improved version - which later eveolved into the J-8II - were approved in September 1980 with concept definition studies began in April 1981.

As such I think the timeline You describe does not fit and it is highly unlikely that already in 1968 a J-8II was considered 8 ears before the J-8I. Even more the J-10 (old) had a boxy intake similar to the MiG-25 and was only in development between 1968-1970 and the J-11 (old) was initiated only in August 1969; this design in fact had the intake configuration You describe.

As such how could the J-8II take over in 1967 a design of an intake from fighters, which were not even under development at that time ?

Deino

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Also the J-8II (1968) ventral fin is pure MiG-23, which I assumed came to the actual J-8, like the intakes, from studying Egyptian MiG-23MS. I would second Deino's request for a source of the drawing.

 

[lion1984]

Sorry, may be I stated there is a problem.

This J-8 1968 scheme is J-8 after confirm eight goals in 1965, when choosing the nose inlet side inlet scheme or on both sides of the air intake. Development to 1969 J-8 after the first flight is give up.

On both sides of the air intake technology reserve insufficiency, the biggest impact speed and want to catch such factors as the first flight in 1969, J - 8 finally chose the nose inlet.

Is considered by shock wave inlet cone inlet, there are confirmed to have seen relevant model (no picture).Message from Bai Wei weibo (China's twitter), he claimed that he saw the shock model of the air inlet


Another 1968-1970, the J - 11 (1969) and J - 10 (1969） is similar to the inlet.
Use similar inlet and the head design, be helpful for production and processing convenience

On both sides of J - 8 admission scheme sources Gu Songfen oral 《my plane design career》on page 112

 

[lion1984]

Figure is my memoirs painted according to the designer, OK, do not seem authoritative source ~ ~

But to get Bai Wei confirmed that he claimed to have seen a similar model, but is low wing. And that the mid wing may also exist in

Deion , Baiwei Do you know?

Last year, I see your contact information in your blog, to give him contact you~

 

[lion1984]

Also the J-8II (1968) ventral fin is pure MiG-23, which I assumed came to the actual J-8, like the intakes, from studying Egyptian MiG-23MS. I would second Deino's request for a source of the drawing.

Sorry, drawing is the design with J-8II change, details may not be entirely correct. Ventral is an obvious mistake :'(

 

[Deino]

Thanks a lot "lion1984" ... especially for Your source, that at least can't be simply turned down (sadly I can't read Chinese even if I know this booklet ... as far as I remember there are similar ones of Song Wencong (J-10) and for the JH-7's designer)

Anyway could it be that this design or at least gebneral layout was already under consideration for the original J-8I and was put aside to develop a simpler updated type and was only revived again, when the J-8II was under development. Those details like the intakes and folding fins were then simply added after accsess to the MiG-23 ?!

Deino

PS: Regarding Bai Wei, yes I know him and without his help and even more his artworks my latest book - which will go to the printer next week !! - surely would not be as it is. Thanks a lot.

 

[hesham]

Hi Lion1984,


about the old J-9 fighter,it was a swing wing fighter and powered by two R-11
engines,I hope to get a drawing to this aircraft.

 

[lion1984]

Unfortunately, the chief designer of the memoirs allow us to clearly understand the Chinese aviation industry for quite a long time to digest the Soviet legacy of darkness and chaos slowly forward in time. Of course, there are a considerable number of projects incomplete information during the Cultural Revolution, this is a pity.

J-8 developed to the J-8I to 80 years of development to the J-8II, not so much a technical problem the whole development is slow, as it is J-9, J-10, J-11's existence, a great little distracted R & D capabilities. J-8 as a very important Chinese Air Force planes were ranked in the final. If science is a little, if not the Cultural Revolution, if less ambitious · · · · · · J-8, and the 1968 program on both sides of the intake appears to be earlier than expected. :

Throughout the 1960s, after all, China is the enemy of the Soviet Union the United States, there is no formal channels to get technical. For an agricultural country for thousands of years, just basic support that point of the rapid development of industrialization and the aviation industry, too difficult ~ ~ and that even when manufacturing satellites, missiles and nuclear weapons :'(

 

[lion1984]

What you say is the old J-10, there is currently only a CG figure, drawing my paintings, but I'm not sure what time of completion, I am not a professional, I tried to take the F-111 + j-8 to splice ~ ~Now drew these old J - 10 is a canard, I haven't painted

Also, according to the author of some of China's aviation history description, Shenyang order to accelerate progress, trying to use J-8 loaded variable sweep wing swing-wing program verification

 

[lion1984]

there is currently only a CG figure ???

 

[hesham]

That's right Lion,


it is too hard to get a drawings to old China projects,here is a real drawing
to old F-12 or J-12 of late 1970s and early 1980s;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,679.msg99883.html#msg99883

 

[lion1984]

This is more like MIG-23, in Chinese MIG-23 obtained from Egypt, China conducted a comprehensive research and mapping. Some network news that the Air Force intends to mimic the MIG-23's production on the Cultural Revolution, the only fighter to manufacture qualified Nan chang Aircraft Factory.

As Shenyang has not put fake MIG-23 No. J-12 is not clear :'(

 

[famvburg]

There's a top and side view of your CG here in this thread. http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,679.msg51969.html#msg51969

 

[Deino]

Sorry guys, but either I'm completely wrong - and even more the CG's Bai Wei made for my book - but both this J-10 and the J-12 are simply fan-arts, nothing more. The J-10 was indeed planned as a swing-wing design in its initial stage but later converted to a MiG-25-delta-wing style type and the J-12 is nothing more than a joke, the true J-12 was a tiny bantam fighter similar in appearance to a mini-Mig-21 with neww wings.

Quite interesting, the J-12 swing wing design was taken over in the West when the first reports of new fighters under development appeared during the late 1970 and early 1980, but in the end, they were all J-9 and J-13 configurations, which were misidentified in the West.

However there was indeed a J-8 VG concept under the designation "mission 613" !

Deino

 

[Pioneer]

What you say is the old J-10, there is currently only a CG figure, drawing my paintings, but I'm not sure what time of completion, I am not a professional, I tried to take the F-111 + j-8 to splice ~ ~Now drew these old J - 10 is a canard, I haven't painted

Also, according to the author of some of China's aviation history description, Shenyang order to accelerate progress, trying to use J-8 loaded variable sweep wing swing-wing program verification

Interesting! Although I would say your drawing looks more akin to the LTV V-507 or Dassault Mirage G8, than a F-111!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[hesham]

My dear Deino,


of course you are right,but for the old F-9 or J-9,it is a real informations about
it,I can't tell about my sources,but the real drawing to this bird,shows it as a
swing wing aircraft,and powered by two R-11s,with nose intake as Sukhoi
Su-17,or based on it.

 

[Deino]

Dear Hesham, sorry but the model You describe never existed; it was only a what-if drawn at a time when the West barely knew anything about the CHinese Air Force, its industry and even more its aircraft types under development.

As far as I'm correct, this type You know is a "we expect to look like" image of the J-8 and similar models were at first described in a book called "The Chinese War Maschine". Here the Q-5 was shown for the first time - then mislabled as a J-6B - as well as two other types, which were reportedly under development, the first one a delta winged fighter called J-12A (= was in fact J-9) and the other one a VG-design, which were labled J-12B (= was in fact Q-6).

Sorry, but they never existed !

Deino

 

[hesham]

OK my dear Deino.

 

[Deino]

@ dear lion1984 ... I hope You did not take my posts as too offensive especially since You had some very interesting points to reconsider !

As such I hope You will post more,
Deino

 

[lion1984]

Sorry guys, but either I'm completely wrong - and even more the CG's Bai Wei made for my book - but both this J-10 and the J-12 are simply fan-arts, nothing more. The J-10 was indeed planned as a swing-wing design in its initial stage but later converted to a MiG-25-delta-wing style type and the J-12 is nothing more than a joke, the true J-12 was a tiny bantam fighter similar in appearance to a mini-Mig-21 with neww wings.

Quite interesting, the J-12 swing wing design was taken over in the West when the first reports of new fighters under development appeared during the late 1970 and early 1980, but in the end, they were all J-9 and J-13 configurations, which were misidentified in the West.

However there was indeed a J-8 VG concept under the designation "mission 613" !

Deino

It seems the current data, the speed of Mach 2.6, altitude 20,600 meters of "NO.3 program" (similar to what you say MiG-25) and HQ -3 together, is to deal with the SR-71 product. "NO.3" was briefly known as Shenyang J-10. However, the development of genuine long enough or variable-geometry wing of J-10.Their relationship at the moment, I haven't straighten out.

Another J-12 error message may be the West 80s MiG -23 imitation after making inferences. As there did not use the J-12 this code, there is currently no information to confirm.

As the chaos of that era, as well as secrecy, now the vast majority of information in the closet. Now only be able to learn a variety of memoirs, but do not dictate insurance, so slowly waiting for a variety of new information and pictures of it

This length of text you have not seen?

 

[tround]

it's look like a MIG 31 with one seat .

 

[Deino]

It seems the current data, the speed of Mach 2.6, altitude 20,600 meters of "NO.3 program" (similar to what you say MiG-25) and HQ -3 together, is to deal with the SR-71 product. "NO.3" was briefly known as Shenyang J-10. However, the development of genuine long enough or variable-geometry wing of J-10.Their relationship at the moment, I haven't straighten out.

Another J-12 error message may be the West 80s MiG -23 imitation after making inferences. As there did not use the J-12 this code, there is currently no information to confirm.

As the chaos of that era, as well as secrecy, now the vast majority of information in the closet. Now only be able to learn a variety of memoirs, but do not dictate insurance, so slowly waiting for a variety of new information and pictures of it

This length of text you have not seen?

Thanks a lot and to admit this text about the J-10 I did not know (sadly it's too late for my book , which will go to the 'printer' in about two weeks), but I think all the info is included since bai Wei - please note the same artwork ! - was my main consultant for the book.

Do You have any more information regarding the also mentioned "No. 4" or "Mission 4" VSTOL-type ??

Best regards and thanks a lot,
Deino

 

[lion1984]

Yes, at present domestic about the plan of reconstruction and senior researchers seem to only BAI WEI, CG models are made of him. Gradually, some of the other data to enrich and prove that the presence of these models.

"Mission 4" today, only 2 or 3 piece of text, mainly motor, fan, there is no figure. Fuel tank J-6 was the result of the "Mission 4"

 

[lion1984]

New, Chen Ying Ming "Chinese aircraft encyclopedia" published in a number of projects screenshots, but no new about J-10,(old) J-11 (old)more introductions

 

[Deino]

All I got so far is this ....

There have been rumours about proposals, or perhaps better to say suggestions, for a V/STOL type aircraft. One known project was an engine study called the ‘Number 4 Lift-Fan’, which in fact was one of the first Chinese proposals for a turbofan. For some time nothing was known in regard to what type of aircraft this would be used for but recent research has revealed a concept known as the ‘Mission 4’ VTOL fighter which is shown on a commemorative wall at SAC’s No. 601 Design Institute. It shows close similarities to a small J-6-based design but, instead of having ‘lift-engines’ in the normal sense, it shows a propulsion system similar to that used in the 1960s by the American Ryan XV-5 Vertifan. The design reportedly had four lift-fan engines – two at the forward fuselage and two behind the wings in front of the tail – that would retract into a conformal pod underneath the fuselage. The stone wall ‘model’ shows only the two rear engines deployed, plus a nose intake and highly swept wings and empennage. The chosen engine was a variant of the WP-6 and the ‘Mission 4’ was considered as an operational type for use as a close-airsupport fighter and for the anti-tank role, but the design never left the drawing board.

Deino

 

[lion1984]

J-11，No new content

 

[Deino]

J-11，No new content

Ohhh this book seems to be a real gem !?? ... any idea where to get one copy ??? (and even more a translated version in English !)

Anyway, that's what I have for the J-11 (old) again via Bai Wei ...

Deino

 

[lion1984]

ha ~ ~, a side view of the famous aviation artist Glen Chin painting, this book is currently too expensive, 4 BOOK,each of the 300-600RMB, without any particular information, so I did not buy it.
There are some figure not seen, if someone scans, I will occasionally posted over

In addition, J-11 seems to be the model which Mirage F-1 modified wing seems wrong.

 

[hesham]

For J-8 & J-8II,their variants are;

J-8
J-8 Day Type
J-8A
JZ-8
J-8B
J-8 IE
J-8 ACT
J-8B
J-8B Block 02
J-8B Peace Pearl upgrade
J-8C
J-8D
J-8F
J-8G
J-8H
JZ-8F
J-8 II ACT]
J-8II Fadec
F-8B (Export version of the J-8B)
F-8 IIM

 

[PDMODE]

For J-8 & J-8II,their variants are;

J-8
J-8 Day Type
J-8A
JZ-8
J-8B
J-8 IE
J-8 ACT
J-8B
J-8B Block 02
J-8B Peace Pearl upgrade
J-8C
J-8D
J-8F
J-8G
J-8H
JZ-8F
J-8 II ACT]
J-8II Fadec
F-8B (Export version of the J-8B)
F-8 IIM

You lost some old version upgrade type my friend:J8BH ,J8DH DF and J8HF. But also nice job.