Shenyang J-11 as an unlawful copy of Su-27 - discussion

[flateric]

July 19, 2010 18:06

Russia has no questions to China about “copying” military equipment

FARNBOROUGH. July 19 (Interfax-AVN) - China is using Russian and Soviet know-how to develop and build aircraft, Alexander Fomin, first deputy head of the Federal Military-Technical Cooperation Service, said at a news conference at the Farnborough air show.

"It is an accomplished fact. China is vigorously developing its defense industry, not without Russia's assistance, of course," he said.

The Soviet Union built about 3,000 enterprises, while Russia handed China licenses to make aircraft and components," he said.

"We handed over a large amount of know-how to China, including information related to the defense industry. It is not surprising that it repeats itself in Chinese products," he said.

Asked whether China has developed a fighter jet which it claims excels Russia's Sukhoi Su-33, Fomin said, "I can neither confirm, nor deny this."

"Concerning the Su-33, Russia did not deliver such planes to China. If our Chinese partners have them, they were not received from Russian sources," he said.

Fomin said Russia has no questions to China so far. "We have an agreement on the protection of intellectual property rights. If we uncover copyright violations, we will deal with this within the framework of the agreement," Fomin said.

http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=178078

but seems that Mikhail Aslanovich still has some questions unaswered
http://www.rian.ru/defense_safety/20100720/256683492.html

 

[Deino]

July 19, 2010 18:06

Russia has no questions to China about “copying” military equipment

That's interesting ... actually very interesting, since it proves my "assumption" that this hype is more from the Russian press and other international "observers" than the designer and original manufactor !

However it also shows that either we really don't know the secret parts of the contract - from what is known at least I see some "questions" too esp. with the latest J-11BS and J-15 models - or Sukhoi and SAC has reached another way to deal with that issue secretly ... or Sukhoi and all the other associated companies ave given up ! (what I don't think !)

Besides that ... a new WS-10A picture.

Deino

 

[Deino]

Latest (semi-officially) leaked pictures of the J-11B, BH and BSH including the WS-10A !

Deino

 

[flateric]

http://periscope2.ru/?digest_id=21131
citing August issue of Kanwa (citing, in their turn, unamed source in Russian aerospace industry)
- 'Carrier-based J-15 fighter finally destroys up mutual trust in Russia-China military-technical cooperation'

 

[Deino]

...
citing August issue of Kanwa (citing, in their turn, unamed source in Russian aerospace industry)
...

That's interesting: Sukhoi reports at Farnborough that "Russia has no questions to China about “copying” military equipment" ... but he makes a news-story from it !

Honestly ... Andrej Chang alias "Pinkov" is an "i...t". He usually mixes up different events, then he uses his imagination to create "News". A very special example was the reports on WS-10A-problems during this summer ... at a round the same time when several factory fresh WS-10A-powered aircraft were flying around. Otherwise a typical anti-China-bashing mixed by fear-making in some conservative US-circles ...

I remember once a "special offer" of J-10 factory-line pictures from CAC - I wanted to use the for the IAPR-feature - ... I'm not sure anymore but the price was horror .... and they were all well-known from several Internet-links. :-[


Typical Kanwa though: outdated "news" with half fetched "sources" as always

At the Key-forum once a nice summary similar to this given by below_freezing @ defence.pk

kanwa is famous for fake news. the editor is:

a chinese, who studied in japan and has a japanese wife, who took a russian name, that is a canadian citizen.

he doesn't even know who the hell he is, what can he say about china?

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

must be the chinese copy of the onion news network :

 

[Deino]

So, the next round of discussion might be open with the unveiling of the J-16 prototype #1606 of Shenyang's "equivalent" to the Su-30MKK.

Follwong the sparse information available, it seems indeed to have an IFR-probe, WS-10A Taihang turbofans, a new radar (if the often mentioned AESA ???), the stronger front landing gear with two tires .... but the former Russian smaller wing-tip pylons.


Deino

 

[pathology_doc]

I find the whole concept of the two former Communist superpowers at loggerheads over evil capitalistic breaches of contract to be nothing short of amusing, especially in the long historical shadow of the Tu-4...

 

[Orionblamblam]

Especially interesting given apparent Russian and Chinese attitudes towards copyright laws and intellectual property rights.

 

[Triton]

Especially interesting given apparent Russian and Chinese attitudes towards copyright laws and intellectual property rights.

Indeed. Chinese industry produces counterfeit clothing, electronics, automobiles, etc.. So it really is no surprise that they would manufacture counterfeit aircraft. If the concept art is legitimate, the Shaanxi Y-20 looks like a counterfeit Boeing C-17 Globemaster III. Since I know nothing about the Chinese legal system, would Sukhoi have any legal remedies in China?

 

[Trident]

So, the next round of discussion might be open with the unveiling of the J-16 prototype #1606 of Shenyang's "equivalent" to the Su-30MKK.

Follwong the sparse information available, it seems indeed to have an IFR-probe, WS-10A Taihang turbofans, a new radar (if the often mentioned AESA ??? ), the stronger front landing gear with two tires .... but the former Russian smaller wing-tip pylons.


Deino

From what I can see it's an interesting amalgam of features from various Flanker variants, but all in all does resemble a Su-30MKK most - cadder's drawing appears to have the tail fins wrong, they have Su-30MKK-style tall rudders (without fixed insets at the bottom like the Su-27UB or Su-30MKI) but Su-27-style cropped tips. Apart from what you mention (it will be interesting to see detailed pictures of its nose, I wonder if the structure has been redesigned as on the Su-35) there seem to be possible MAWS sensors on the LERX below the bort number and further interesting appendages behind the canopy, below the nose and behind the airbrake.


EDIT: No, actually the "things" on the LERX and below the nose look more like relocated pitots on closer examination - note also that the large probe that is located behind the canopy high up on the spine in most Flankers seems to be gone. And whether the stuff behind the canopy hinge and the airbrake really is anything more than a differently coloured panel is also hard to tell - we need better imagery

 

[Deino]

Yes we surely need but sadly acess to SAC is not so open as to CAC !

Reagrding the tails, that's actually correct, since the J-16 feaures indeed the old Su-27UBK/J-11BS-style canted tails.

 

[Trident]

I don't think so - the J-16 has the old, cropped Su-27UB/J-11BS fin *tips* (which are just a fairing covering a radio comms antenna!), but they appear to be mounted on a Su-27M/Su-30MKK-style fin proper.

 

[Trident]

Here are some suggestions for improving the drawing, it appears that the RWR fairings on the intakes have been removed too (as on the Su-30MKK and J-15), but it's hard to be sure with these images. Since they've clearly messed around with the air data system, I also wonder whether there is a nose pitot present at all. The pictures with blurred background suggest that it has one, but is this because the person who modified it expected to see a pitot and misidentified something that is actually part of the background? It would be great to see that photo without censoring (and cropping, as that would probably confirm the presence or absence of the intake RWR).

 

[Deino]

Agreed, good observation ! So it is indeed a Su-30MKK-copy simply with WS-10A + old-stle fin caps !? ... here's a probably better one (albeit without the tail) by an other artist ! (+ comparison to the other Chinese Flankers)

 

[Deino]

Seems as if reports about the start of the J-16 serial production are true ....

 

[Deino]

via SDF !

Bigger Photos of J-16

There is indeed no longer a pitot !!!

Deino

 

[totoro]

who knows, but i would think not. if jh7a production ceased, xian would find itself without much work. as far as i know, xian is building new plant specifically for y-20, so they don't intent to use the jh7 plant for it.

at the same time, we don't know if shenyang can just double its production rate on a whim, doing both j11 and j16. or even just switching to j16 but suddenly doing 45 of them a year. my guess is j16 is simply a more multirole orientated flanker. plaaf may've said "we've got enough single role fighters, we could use the multiroles from now on". So i imagine j16 will just get produced in previous j11 plant and slowly replace existing j7 and j8, alongside j10b.

 

[Trident]

IRST looks like the one on the J-10B, rather than previous Chinese Flanker iterations.

 

[Deino]

Does this mean the impending end of JH-7A production?

Most likely not, since the production seems to be continuing with the latest JH-7B version.

However there are reports that the PLAAF might prefer the J-16 (as one the Su-30MKK) and the JH-7B will only go to the PLANAF.

Deino

 

[totoro]

it doesn't need to be either-or situation for plaaf. they can get both j16 and jh7b, just as they've gotten both jh7a and j11b throughout the last several years.

also, without expansion in number of regiments/bases/pilots planaf doesn't really have much room to accept additional jh7b. A regiment or two more, at the expense of fighter regiments, before pretty much everything gets modernized. At that point one might expect rebuilds of existing jh7 into jh7b, as those jh7 shouldn't have more than a few thousand hours in them.

 

[Trident]

Another thought: with China progressively increasing the indigenous content of their Flanker clones (probably reaching a new high on the J-16), what about the gun? This is an interesting question, because to date even the most modern completely Chinese domestic designs (J-10 and JF-17) still use a local copy of the old GSh-23. While very light, it's a pretty weak gun by current standards, whereas the GSh-30-1 (similar weight!) has probably the best fire power to weight ratio achieved to date.

 

[latenlazy]

Another thought: with China progressively increasing the indigenous content of their Flanker clones (probably reaching a new high on the J-16), what about the gun? This is an interesting question, because to date even the most modern completely Chinese domestic designs (J-10 and JF-17) still use a local copy of the old GSh-23. While very light, it's a pretty weak gun by current standards, whereas the GSh-30-1 (similar weight!) has probably the best fire power to weight ratio achieved to date.

From what I can gather most sources indicate that the J-11 and J-15 both use the GSh-30 so my guess is the J-16 would too?

 

[Trident]

I'm pretty certain it does - but where was it built? Has China perhaps succeeded in making a local derivative?

 

[latenlazy]

I'm pretty certain it does - but where was it built? Has China perhaps succeeded in making a local derivative?

I have no idea, but it wouldn't be the first time China has indigenized a Russian gun . I dare say that China is Russia's most studious student (and America's when they can still get that help).

 

[GARGEAN]

ping

Maybe you know what's with IRST? Is it rotatable?

 

[FighterJock]

View attachment 646950

ping

Maybe you know what's with IRST? Is it rotatable?

I would probably think that instead of being rotatable it is a static protective cover for the IRST. Because if you look at the Russian Su-27's they did not fit one to their IRST's, and you can look at the inner workings.

 

[Trident]

I expect it's rotatable, yes. Rafale OSF IR component does the same thing. Interesting that they kept the dust deflector wedge regardless.

 

[Deino]

Good evening guys,

and first of all I hope you are doing fine and also I hope you don't mind a few questions again on this topic concerning the long-time discussion to what extent legal/illegal the extended licence production of the J-11A to the J-11B was and further to the J-15/16?

In order to know on what basis we are discussing (but please already add any critics to this if you have) I have the following pieces:

• China received several Su-27SK and UBK directly from Russia
• In 1995, Moscow sold Beijing a license to produce 200 Su-27SK aircraft (built as J-11) using Russian components
• Until 2003, China bought 95 sets for them from the Russian Federation, but refused the remaining 105
• From then on the main issue is especially the J-11B with indigenous WS-10 engines and new avionics, the J-11BS since the original license did not include the twin seater Su-27UBK and further the J-15 (Su-33 related) and J-16 (Su-30MKK related)

Regardless what we know about or what we think personally about these claims of being illegal in th end, we will never get any clear image. Anyway after so many years, what's the conclusion:


1. Plain and simple – China copied illegally! As such this issue is in fact not solved but accepted (even more since Russia recently depends more on China‘s money than China on Russia’s technical help) and nothing can be done anyway.

2. or that there was an additional agreement, a contract for additional payment / parallel trade - like other offset deals, the desperately needed Su-35 deal + political support to compensate for the originals contract breach? Was this eventually an alternative contract like AL-31FN engines for the J-10 series, D-30KP-2 engines for H-6 and Y-20s? … and also engines for the first J-20 batch(es)? Even more since we never heard anything about additional AL-31 deals but still J-10AS’ are being built using them. So there must be additional ones delivered!?

3. Or was it in fact always legal and the public uproar is more show?

Supporting this, there is now a strange theory since allegedly the number of J-11s allowed to licence manufacture was depending on Russia’s depth to China. (“The PLAAF has a requirement for 200 Su‑27s, …This may increase should the Russian authorities provide additional aircraft as payment for outstanding debts to China”) Could this be a hint that in fact this issues was long solved and only the public wasn’t informed?

Don’t get me wrong and my intention is surely not to fabricate anything, but my feeling tells me that there is still more behind than is known in the public, otherwise Russia wasn’t that keen to deliver Su-35s and more… and that’s what interests me.

Any help appreciated, take care and stay safe,
Deino

 

[Deino]

PS: latest Chinese Flanker-family member that entered service is the J-16D EW-variant