Shenyang / Hongdu GJ-11 "Lijian" (Sharp Sword) UCAV demonstrator

[Machdiamond]

I just like to ask why does the engine nozzle on that drone look like it is in full open, after burner position if it is only capable of dry thrust?

Because full open nozzle also happens to be the idle and low thrust positions.
This is a red herring and I concur with Sundog's comments.

 

[Deino]

:-* :-*

 

[bobbymike]

Leaving the charming digression about whether it speaks well or ill of the chinese to avail themselves of good defence ideas where they find them (Speaks very well of the right sort of hubris that doesn't go to their heads, unlike the wrong sort sometimes exhibited on this board, IMHO), I just like to ask why does the engine nozzle on that drone look like it is in full open, after burner position if it is only capable of dry thrust?

Is there any evidence that the afterburner is NOT operational? Did they just ditch the afterburner and slap the nozzle on the end of a shorter engine? And why would nozzle setting on a stationary aircraft determine anything anyway? And I don't believe anybody has said anything about copying being good/bad, just that it makes things easier. Theft on the other hand is completely worthy of condemnation. YMMV.

Without having to comment on the efficacy of the entire Chinese weapons R&D and production establishment (I am sure there are hundreds of brilliant scientists, engineers, etc) I don't think there is any doubt that they have benefited from the first massive, targeted and systematic cyber espionage program in the history of the world. The target being industrial and military computer networks.

 

[Gridlock]

first massive, targeted and systematic cyber espionage program in the history of the world.

:

 

[sferrin]

first massive, targeted and systematic cyber espionage program in the history of the world.

:

Perhaps you could name one prior of the scale of China's current efforts? (And don't shame yourself by babbling about Cold War nonsense as none of that remotely compares.)

 

[bobbymike]

first massive, targeted and systematic cyber espionage program in the history of the world.

:

Perhaps you could name one prior of the scale of China's current efforts? (And don't shame yourself by babbling about Cold War nonsense as none of that remotely compares.)

Yes because the strongest arguments is to take a partial quote from the original post and add an 'eye roll' smiley. I believe Cicero used that technique.

http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/cyberwar-china-steals-tons-of-sensitive-data-from-us_699966.html

http://www.dailytech.com/Secret+Chinese+Military+Unit+May+Be+Behind+Series+of+Hacks+on+US+Since+2006/article29931.htm

http://news.yahoo.com/cyber-war-just-dangerous-chinas-military-hackers-090000370.html

http://money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?post=10b464d5-c082-4f0e-a34f-7642cef26b71

............and hundreds more...............

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

:-* :-*

Thats a lot of engine for a UAV of that size, don't you think?

 

[sferrin]

Frankly I don't see how anybody could deny it. If it wasn't so infuriating/concerning it would be almost comical the degree they've copied and or stolen western designs.

 

[sferrin]

:-* :-*

Thats a lot of engine for a UAV of that size, don't you think?

Apparently there isn't a functioning afterburner. It's just a variable nozzle on a non-afterburning engine.

 

[sublight_]

But You have no proof ??!! I know - maybe better than some others here - the history of Chinese Aviation but I also know these repeatedly quoted stupid statements since it is so much easier if it fits the own point of view, opinion or limited horizon to keep that line even if the facts are completely different in the meantime.

As such tell us from what type of UCAv these blue-prints were stolen ... ???

Sometimes I really have the feeling that we are too close to Keymag's poor quality,
Deino

There is absolutely no doubt that China has undertaken a massive program of intellectual property acquisition by espionage. In some cases they don't even try to do it surreptitiously. (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-15/china-corporate-espionage-boom-knocks-wind-out-of-u-s-companies.html)

Even if by a complete miracle the Lijian is somehow a 100% clean room design, it will always have dubious creative roots courtesy of China's hacking program. This situation will continue to deteriorate even if China was to immediately cease its espionage. At some point China will want to export its hardware based upon stolen intellectual property and the US will be forced to stop their own designs from being pointed against them.

 

[flateric]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/3319656
http://www.amazon.com/Tiger-Trap-Americas-Secret-China/dp/0547553102

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

first massive, targeted and systematic cyber espionage program in the history of the world.

:

Perhaps you could name one prior of the scale of China's current efforts? (And don't shame yourself by babbling about Cold War nonsense as none of that remotely compares.)

If we are talking specifically about cyber espionage, no. Espionage in general, well I think the efforts of both the US and the USSR deserve the title of "massive, targeted and systematic", don't you? Spy

Both sides of the Cold War put in a vast amount of effort aimed specifically at getting hold of the other side's technology, whether that be to make valid assessments of their capabilities or (in the USSR's case) to steal the technology for their own use. The field of play for espionage may have changed a bit, but this is only a minor change. I am pretty sure the US will be putting a lot of effort into doing to the Chinese something very like what the Chinese are doing to the US in the cyber-warfare arena.

 

[Deino]

Apparently there isn't a functioning afterburner. It's just a variable nozzle on a non-afterburning engine.

Apparently ??? ... why do You think so !?? Wouldn't it be much easeier to simply delete the AB insted of adding dead-weight by retaining the AB-nozzle but to delete the AB itself ?

Again I only heard that staement from You ... no other forum mentions this !

Deino

 

[flateric]

Apparently there isn't a functioning afterburner. It's just a variable nozzle on a non-afterburning engine.

it's just ol' good [afterburning] smoky RD-93 per se
a question if they will use afterburner at all

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I expect the prototype has standard RD-93 with afterburner simply because its off the shelf. They might not use it however. A production model would have a non-afterburning RD-33 or WS-13 with a custom nozzle.

 

[sferrin]

Apparently there isn't a functioning afterburner. It's just a variable nozzle on a non-afterburning engine.

Apparently ??? ... why do You think so !?? Wouldn't it be much easeier to simply delete the AB insted of adding dead-weight by retaining the AB-nozzle but to delete the AB itself ?

Again I only heard that staement from You ... no other forum mentions this !

Deino

I was referring to post #15.

 

[sferrin]

first massive, targeted and systematic cyber espionage program in the history of the world.

:

Perhaps you could name one prior of the scale of China's current efforts? (And don't shame yourself by babbling about Cold War nonsense as none of that remotely compares.)

If we are talking specifically about cyber espionage, no. Espionage in general, well I think the efforts of both the US and the USSR deserve the title of "massive, targeted and systematic", don't you? Spy

Both sides of the Cold War put in a vast amount of effort aimed specifically at getting hold of the other side's technology, whether that be to make valid assessments of their capabilities or (in the USSR's case) to steal the technology for their own use. The field of play for espionage may have changed a bit, but this is only a minor change. I am pretty sure the US will be putting a lot of effort into doing to the Chinese something very like what the Chinese are doing to the US in the cyber-warfare arena.

Yes there was a lot of effort made but compare the results. For example, a blurry "RAM-K" from a spy satellite isn't quite as useful as a terabyte download of engineering data from the manufacturer wouldn't you agree?

 

[Gridlock]

Perhaps you could name one prior of the scale of China's current efforts? (And don't shame yourself by babbling about Cold War nonsense as none of that remotely compares.)

Largest cyber-espionage scheme in the history of the world, but not between 1947 and 1990. Got ya.


I'd have put ECHELON up there, especially given all the fun with Airbus contracts, but you're right, China invented large scale SIGINT and network intrusion.

 

[sferrin]

Perhaps you could name one prior of the scale of China's current efforts? (And don't shame yourself by babbling about Cold War nonsense as none of that remotely compares.)

Largest cyber-espionage scheme in the history of the world, but not between 1947 and 1990. Got ya.


I'd have put ECHELON up there, especially given all the fun with Airbus contracts, but you're right, China invented large scale SIGINT and network intrusion.

I mentioned leaving out the Cold War because it's perfectly obvious neither side obtained as much data as China hoovers up in a year. Sure, both sides spent billions to obtain those crumbs (by comparison) of information, but it doesn't remotely compare to today.

 

[bobbymike]

Perhaps you could name one prior of the scale of China's current efforts? (And don't shame yourself by babbling about Cold War nonsense as none of that remotely compares.)

Largest cyber-espionage scheme in the history of the world, but not between 1947 and 1990. Got ya.


I'd have put ECHELON up there, especially given all the fun with Airbus contracts, but you're right, China invented large scale SIGINT and network intrusion.

I mentioned leaving out the Cold War because it's perfectly obvious neither side obtained as much data as China hoovers up in a year. Sure, both sides spent billions to obtain those crumbs (by comparison) of information, but it doesn't remotely compare to today.

That's the orginal reason to specifically use 'cyber-espionage'. Just the data transfer rates that the fastest internet connections make compared to 1990 is incredible literally kilobytes/hour to Terrabytes/minute probably Exabytes to follow. The volume of data that could be stolen in a day from a computer network could equal the information found in the Library of Congress AND its getting faster.

We had a thread here about how some SP members had Gigabytes of aerospace 'stuff' on their home computers probably enough to fill a medum sized U-haul in 'hard copy' form.

 

[sublight_]

Perhaps you could name one prior of the scale of China's current efforts? (And don't shame yourself by babbling about Cold War nonsense as none of that remotely compares.)

Largest cyber-espionage scheme in the history of the world, but not between 1947 and 1990. Got ya.


I'd have put ECHELON up there, especially given all the fun with Airbus contracts, but you're right, China invented large scale SIGINT and network intrusion.

I mentioned leaving out the Cold War because it's perfectly obvious neither side obtained as much data as China hoovers up in a year. Sure, both sides spent billions to obtain those crumbs (by comparison) of information, but it doesn't remotely compare to today.

In fact one year of Chinese espionage may cost the US more than the espionage of the entire cold war: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-22634685

 

[Deino]

Can we please go back to the topic ??? ... and continue this China-espionage-discussion either in a new tread or in the already existing one about "China's coying of foreign weapons systems and subsystems"

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18898.msg182724.html#msg182724

Deino

 

[Machdiamond]

How about that. Sorry to beat a subject to death but I realize I was too cryptic in my prior response regarding the presence of afterburner.
So my position is that the RD-93 still has its afterburner and it is not going to be used because:
- All they need is an off-the-shelf engine
- Removing the afterburner is not trivial. They could do it but why bother? Proof of concept empty weights are generally irrelevant (unless they are above max takeoff weight which I have already seen in the past but that is another story). I suspect they do not have the afterburner fuel boost pump installed.
- UCAV of this category (subsonic/medium-low maneuverability) are all about persistence. Laws of physics do not allow the words "persistence" and "afterburner" in the same sentence. In other words, it does not make any sense.
Now if it was me managing that program I would light that afterburner at dusk at least once for a photo op, just for keeping you guys guessing.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

The thing is, the afterburner itself isn't much weight - some fuel pipes and spray bars. Yes, the entire exhaust will be larger and heavier than it needs to be, but making a new one is complex.

 

[Reaper]

The thing is, when you design a stealthy UCAV, you dont want anybody to see it and rely on its stealth capabilies to get through enemy air defences. The advantage of an afterburner (maybe not necessarily, mentioning super cruise) you would be faster through the air defence, but if you are already stealthy they wont see you anyway. So an afterburner for a highly stealthy platform wouldnt make sense since you already have the capabilty you need: surviveabilty, and you would have again disadvantages (cooling the afterburner for signature...) if you include the afterburner.

 

[Deino]

Agreed and as such I'm convinced that this thing is currently simply a testbed or a demonstrator, which uses this afterburning engine as it most likely fits the thrust and so on requirements best ... for a later serial UCAV a AB-less engine - maybe a version of the WS-10 - will surely be the better option.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

You are over thinking it. It will most likely use the same engine or its indigenous counterpart ws-13 but with an LO configured nozzle which isn't ready yet and not needed for aerodynamic tests. The afterburner is probably not even connected up in this demonstrator.

 

[bobbymike]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/confidential-report-lists-us-weapons-system-designs-compromised-by-chinese-cyberspies/2013/05/27/a42c3e1c-c2dd-11e2-8c3b-0b5e9247e8ca_story.html?hpid=z1

 

[sublight_]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/confidential-report-lists-us-weapons-system-designs-compromised-by-chinese-cyberspies/2013/05/27/a42c3e1c-c2dd-11e2-8c3b-0b5e9247e8ca_story.html?hpid=z1

We should probably take this here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,13345.0.html

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

higher res?

 

[Deino]

Video ... but skip to 1:50 and ignore the music

http://v.ifeng.com/v/mil/zhongguolijian/index.shtml#8b8a3fa1-616d-40bc-9841-2f67cfafe2ac


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3CSUlEwSLtg

Deino

 

[Deino]

Again from China (via Top.81.com-forum), the UCAV "Lijian" or "Sharp Sword" performed its maiden flight today. It took off at 13：00 h local time and landed at 13：17 h. The "Lijian" is designed by SAC and build by Hongdu.

 

[Deino]

To admit it's becoming ever more confusing ! ??? So far I thougth that the Sharp Sword is a joint SAC/HAIG-product, whereas the Soaring Dragon joint-wing UAV is a joint CAC/GAIC-product ... as such this image showing both new UAVs as well as a JL-9H gives me some mysteries !!!???

If this image is taken at Nanchang (home of HAIG) it would explain the Sharp Sword in the background, but not the JL-9 and Soaring Dragon.
On the other side if it is in contrast taken at Anshun/Huangguoshu where GAIC is at home, it would explain the JL-9 and the Soaring Dragon, but what then does the Sharp Sword is doing there ???

Deino

 

[Deino]

Not exactly Lijian ... but also related to SAC and in the same way Lijian was unveiled a few months (last year I think) ago too.

http://thedragonstales.blogspot.ru/2013/09/chinese-uav-conducts-simulated-carrier.html :huh:

Chinese media reports indicate that the winner of the 2nd AVIC-Cup International UAV Innovation Grand Prix (UAVGP) in the fixed-wing category this week was fielded by a group of students representing Shenyang Aerospace University in Liaoning Province. The AVIC-Cup competition was held at Miyun Airport in northeast Beijing. According to media reports, the fixed-wing UAV attempted to land on a mock aircraft carrier in the center of the airfield. It successfully snagged the second hook. It is unclear how well other competitors performed.

Deino

 

[Sark]

Seems like progress is being made:

The Sharp Sword UAV, China’s stealthy attack drone, just won second place in the National Science and Technology Advancement Prizes. Considering the secrecy surrounding stealth drones to come out of China—there are relatively few photos of the Sharp Sword available, particularly as opposed to, say, the J-20 fighter—the Sharp Sword’s victory is pretty noteworthy.

http://www.popsci.com/china-sharp-sword-lijian-stealth-drone

 

[VTOLicious]

AVIC desktop model with some details...

 

[litzj]

Thx for posting pictures.

EOTS like sensor, separated bomb bays with SDB class and 1 heavy bombs with glider kit should be noticed

 

[Deino]

Sharp Sword spotted for the 1st October parade rehearsals.

 

[pjchappy]

Thanks for trying Flyaway.

Well, what’s your take?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

What appears to be a mockup of the production Sharp Sword with stealthy nozzle. Designation given as GJ-11. Via https://twitter.com/dafengcao