The Shenyang 601 Institute has been working for some years now on what might be a competition for Chengdu's J-20. Here's a handful of pics( sorry, can't remember the site, I think it was a Pakistani defence forum) of a model strongly resembling the blurred windtunnel model from Huitong's site. It is also Huitong who suggests a full-scale mock-up Shenyang J-19 has been built. Note the puzzling designation on the tail-F-60? This might suggest that (in case of losing to the J-20?) it is export-oriented, like the JF-17. Along with the stealthified J-11, JF-17, JH-7 and an LO replacement for the J-15, looks like an unprecedented cornucopia of LO airframes will soon be churned out by the Chinese.
Shenyang FC-31 demonstrators / J-35 naval fighter / J-35A land-based version
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11768.msg135286.html#msg135286
These pics already showed up in this thread. Should the mods merge this?
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11768.msg135286.html#msg135286
These pics already showed up in this thread. Should the mods merge this?
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
Its a UAV, made for a competition, already discussed here some weeks ago.
Its a UAV, made for a competition, already discussed here some weeks ago.
Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
Are you serious Overscan? Does it even look like a UAV? And since when have UAVs had glass canopy-covered cockpits? The Chinese sites I've just inspected call it a stealth fighter, anyway.
Are you serious Overscan? Does it even look like a UAV? And since when have UAVs had glass canopy-covered cockpits? The Chinese sites I've just inspected call it a stealth fighter, anyway.
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
That thread I linked to has Overscan posting a quote from a Chinese Military forum saying that it's merely a university design and not official.
That thread I linked to has Overscan posting a quote from a Chinese Military forum saying that it's merely a university design and not official.
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
You can disbelieve me all you like, won't alter the fact I'm right.
http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=5390.80
Foxglove said:
You can disbelieve me all you like, won't alter the fact I'm right.
http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=5390.80
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
I cannot recall the article but there had been some speculation for sometime that the Shenyang aircraft corporation (SAC) was working on a counterpart, albeit probably less sophisticated and more exported orientated one, for the Chengdu J-20. The pictures show where Shenyang's work is orientated at present. The Chinese show their continuous use of proven design elements, with the strong frontal and cockpit resemblance to the F-35 for insistence, which apart from other issues allows for savings on R&D. Also, with this new project, certain design elements such as twin-tales and 2D intakes seem to be now accepted trends within the Chinese industry. Two other elements caught my attention, one is the unknown UAV project on the background poster, and the other is what appears to be a nose cannon on the scale-model-- which leads me to the conclusion that this aircraft is designed to be better catered for air-to-air engagements, especially given that in appearance it seems smaller than the J-20.
It also shares certain design features with the Korean KFX program.
Forscher
I cannot recall the article but there had been some speculation for sometime that the Shenyang aircraft corporation (SAC) was working on a counterpart, albeit probably less sophisticated and more exported orientated one, for the Chengdu J-20. The pictures show where Shenyang's work is orientated at present. The Chinese show their continuous use of proven design elements, with the strong frontal and cockpit resemblance to the F-35 for insistence, which apart from other issues allows for savings on R&D. Also, with this new project, certain design elements such as twin-tales and 2D intakes seem to be now accepted trends within the Chinese industry. Two other elements caught my attention, one is the unknown UAV project on the background poster, and the other is what appears to be a nose cannon on the scale-model-- which leads me to the conclusion that this aircraft is designed to be better catered for air-to-air engagements, especially given that in appearance it seems smaller than the J-20.
It also shares certain design features with the Korean KFX program.
Forscher
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
Yes, of course, it has a gun in the middle of its frigging radome. What geniuses!
Its a student project, designed for the AVIC UAV Cup. This has been established beyond any doubt. This team wanted to make a cool looking fighter UAV, others went with different shaped designs. It has no connection to Shenyang or their possible J-20 rival.
Yes, of course, it has a gun in the middle of its frigging radome. What geniuses!
Its a student project, designed for the AVIC UAV Cup. This has been established beyond any doubt. This team wanted to make a cool looking fighter UAV, others went with different shaped designs. It has no connection to Shenyang or their possible J-20 rival.
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
I wonder if that Chinese Student built plane is how the JSF would have looked if the STOVL requirement hadn't been included.
I wonder if that Chinese Student built plane is how the JSF would have looked if the STOVL requirement hadn't been included.
Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
How serious we're the student project? Sophomore or junior undergraduate project or graduate level project. If the latter, we might speculate that it is either based on some real project, or will have some chance to form the basis of some real future project.
BTW, the thing likes like a twin engined F-35' without the lift fan compromise.
The fact that this thing looks like the Korean project doesn't mean much. Independently conceived stealthy design is very likely to look similar.
How serious we're the student project? Sophomore or junior undergraduate project or graduate level project. If the latter, we might speculate that it is either based on some real project, or will have some chance to form the basis of some real future project.
BTW, the thing likes like a twin engined F-35' without the lift fan compromise.
The fact that this thing looks like the Korean project doesn't mean much. Independently conceived stealthy design is very likely to look similar.
Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
and you have to take the chinese tech and military blogs with a few tons of salt. they've made alot of claims that turned out wrong.. and have a tendnacy to assume any cool looking thing even remotely connected to china is china's newest [blank]..
lets not even get into the "submarine super carriers" and "flying helicarriers" and "zepplin super carriers" and other such nonsense that comes out of some of the more popular sites.
UAv as in "remote controlled Plane" and for RC planes, the fancy ones have see through cockpit canopy's. the really fancy ones have ultra detailed cockpit interiors.Foxglove said:
and you have to take the chinese tech and military blogs with a few tons of salt. they've made alot of claims that turned out wrong.. and have a tendnacy to assume any cool looking thing even remotely connected to china is china's newest [blank]..
lets not even get into the "submarine super carriers" and "flying helicarriers" and "zepplin super carriers" and other such nonsense that comes out of some of the more popular sites.
Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
By UAVs I mean military machines used for reconnaissance/ combat missions, not civilian toy models, thought that was clear enough.
For news on Chinese flying stuff I rely on Huitong's site, which so far has proven reliable.
It is there that you can see a photo of a wind-tunnel model that, blurred as it is, shows more than passing resemblance to the display-model shots I've posted here.
By UAVs I mean military machines used for reconnaissance/ combat missions, not civilian toy models, thought that was clear enough.
For news on Chinese flying stuff I rely on Huitong's site, which so far has proven reliable.
It is there that you can see a photo of a wind-tunnel model that, blurred as it is, shows more than passing resemblance to the display-model shots I've posted here.
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
I simply lost this tread but following some latest reports, this "UAV-project" indeed is not only a student's project and actually more related to SAC's Institute 601.
Anyway this was posted today at several Chinese blogs and even if I have some strong reservations to cry out loud "Juhu the J-xy from SAC" ... this thing is quite intersting.
Actually I can't think that SAC will travel its future stealthy fighter simply thru the streets on the back of a truck.
As such I was thinking more towards a mock-up, a theme-park model or something similar simple ??? ... or an L-15 trainer ???
Following some posts at the CDF, there are however some differences to exclude an L-15 .... and especially that tight securety on this parking place crowded by military security and so on ... . Reportedly it is indeed from SAC on the way to Tianjin. ... but why in Tianjin !
Anway interesting,
Deino
I simply lost this tread but following some latest reports, this "UAV-project" indeed is not only a student's project and actually more related to SAC's Institute 601.
Anyway this was posted today at several Chinese blogs and even if I have some strong reservations to cry out loud "Juhu the J-xy from SAC" ... this thing is quite intersting.
Actually I can't think that SAC will travel its future stealthy fighter simply thru the streets on the back of a truck.
As such I was thinking more towards a mock-up, a theme-park model or something similar simple ??? ... or an L-15 trainer ???
Following some posts at the CDF, there are however some differences to exclude an L-15 .... and especially that tight securety on this parking place crowded by military security and so on ... . Reportedly it is indeed from SAC on the way to Tianjin. ... but why in Tianjin !
Anway interesting,
Deino
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
Indeed interesting, Deino, thanks for the post. The wing geometry seems to match that of the exhibition model, too bad the critical element, the characteristic J-19 tooth-shaped inlet can't be seen. Can't wait to see more.
Indeed interesting, Deino, thanks for the post. The wing geometry seems to match that of the exhibition model, too bad the critical element, the characteristic J-19 tooth-shaped inlet can't be seen. Can't wait to see more.
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
Yep, looks like a mockup of something.
Yep, looks like a mockup of something.
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
Here's another image ! ... as such at least not again a PS-hoax like the JH-XX. ???
Besides that it was transported out of SAC on the 19th June and arrived at Tianjin on the 21st via the Beijing-Harbin Expressway.
Anyway, I still don't understand, why the move to Tianjin ???
Does anyone know if there some kind of special inditute, test facility, university out there ... and even more specialised for "things" which can't be done at SAC itself ??
Or is there a special event, a celebration, congress, anniversary or anything similar near Tianjin, wherea new fighter might be shown for the first time ???
Actually I don't get it ?
Deino
Here's another image ! ... as such at least not again a PS-hoax like the JH-XX. ???
Besides that it was transported out of SAC on the 19th June and arrived at Tianjin on the 21st via the Beijing-Harbin Expressway.
Anyway, I still don't understand, why the move to Tianjin ???
Does anyone know if there some kind of special inditute, test facility, university out there ... and even more specialised for "things" which can't be done at SAC itself ??
Or is there a special event, a celebration, congress, anniversary or anything similar near Tianjin, wherea new fighter might be shown for the first time ???
Actually I don't get it ?
Deino
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
I don't know... seems like another famous fifth gen gets the same treatment as well:
Anyways I am looking forward to Kopp's comments once this bird takes off in August. Looks like his F-35 bashing is about to backfire.
coanda said:
I don't know... seems like another famous fifth gen gets the same treatment as well:
Anyways I am looking forward to Kopp's comments once this bird takes off in August. Looks like his F-35 bashing is about to backfire.
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
Sorry gents, a little off topic........ But I can not but help wounder if the PRC might be playing the United States at its own 'Cold War' game?
What I mean is that just as the United States put the financial pressure on the former Soviet Union to continuously commit to massive amounts of R&D and manufacturing of technology and weapons systems to counter the threat of U.S/Western technological advantage and leads over the USSR - which was and is greatly contributed to the Soviet Unions economic collapse, along with my long readings of Sun Tzu's Art of War! Could the PRC being playing this same economic & threat generated game against the United States?
Could a lot of this PRC/PLA perceived technological leap/challenge in 'advanced' 5th Gen aircraft, missiles, ships and armoured vehicles etc, all be a part of a strategy to force the United States into spending vast amounts on its own defence, which it can clearly no longer afford, whilst capitalizing on a combination of the American public's paranoia, the well established and embedded military complex to force the United States to commit to its own mass R&D and continued arms race????
After all the PRC/PLA are well versed and have continuously intrusted in the art of deception (along with its wiliness to beg, borrow and steel (oh and reverse engineer) advanced military technology that other governments and military have invested vast amounts of time, money, resources into!! Hence all these mock-ups and supposed prototypes!!!
Just a thought
Again sorry to deviate from topic :-X
Regards
Pioneer
Sorry gents, a little off topic........ But I can not but help wounder if the PRC might be playing the United States at its own 'Cold War' game?
What I mean is that just as the United States put the financial pressure on the former Soviet Union to continuously commit to massive amounts of R&D and manufacturing of technology and weapons systems to counter the threat of U.S/Western technological advantage and leads over the USSR - which was and is greatly contributed to the Soviet Unions economic collapse, along with my long readings of Sun Tzu's Art of War! Could the PRC being playing this same economic & threat generated game against the United States?
Could a lot of this PRC/PLA perceived technological leap/challenge in 'advanced' 5th Gen aircraft, missiles, ships and armoured vehicles etc, all be a part of a strategy to force the United States into spending vast amounts on its own defence, which it can clearly no longer afford, whilst capitalizing on a combination of the American public's paranoia, the well established and embedded military complex to force the United States to commit to its own mass R&D and continued arms race????
After all the PRC/PLA are well versed and have continuously intrusted in the art of deception (along with its wiliness to beg, borrow and steel (oh and reverse engineer) advanced military technology that other governments and military have invested vast amounts of time, money, resources into!! Hence all these mock-ups and supposed prototypes!!!
Just a thought
Again sorry to deviate from topic :-X
Regards
Pioneer
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
I think he simply espects that Carlo Kopp again will repeat his concers, he will describe these latest Chinese developments as a danger to Australia ... and that the F-35 is still not the correct type to cope with that threat.
Besides that, it's still on the move ....
SOC said:
I think he simply espects that Carlo Kopp again will repeat his concers, he will describe these latest Chinese developments as a danger to Australia ... and that the F-35 is still not the correct type to cope with that threat.
Besides that, it's still on the move ....
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
Simple. Kopp believes that the F-35 is an inferior platform to all known 5th gen platform and consistently bashes its RCS reduction capabilities, aerodynamics, etc. He will face a dilemma once the F-60, which takes a similar design approach to the F-35, takes off since it indicates that the Chinese are interested in a similar approach to fifth gen. aircraft design.
SOC said:
Simple. Kopp believes that the F-35 is an inferior platform to all known 5th gen platform and consistently bashes its RCS reduction capabilities, aerodynamics, etc. He will face a dilemma once the F-60, which takes a similar design approach to the F-35, takes off since it indicates that the Chinese are interested in a similar approach to fifth gen. aircraft design.
Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
I find it a very believed idea. And not quite uncommon in the world of arms.
North Korea tried to pull the same stunt with some ICBM-looking fake missiles. But China has vast more resources to fake stuff, they can build a plane that looks 5th generation and add the required technology later. As long as no one has seen the insides of all the latest hi-tech planes and ships, it all could still be 4th generation (or lesser).
But now we have to assume it all is pre-production or production of a real 5th generation plane.
Cheers,
Rob
I find it a very believed idea. And not quite uncommon in the world of arms.
North Korea tried to pull the same stunt with some ICBM-looking fake missiles. But China has vast more resources to fake stuff, they can build a plane that looks 5th generation and add the required technology later. As long as no one has seen the insides of all the latest hi-tech planes and ships, it all could still be 4th generation (or lesser).
But now we have to assume it all is pre-production or production of a real 5th generation plane.
Cheers,
Rob
Pioneer said:
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
That's a lot of security in the parking lot photo for this to be a mockup guys! As mentioned earlier in the comments the overall shape really looks very similar to the model of the SAC J-60 that was circulating in the blogs late last year.
That's a lot of security in the parking lot photo for this to be a mockup guys! As mentioned earlier in the comments the overall shape really looks very similar to the model of the SAC J-60 that was circulating in the blogs late last year.
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
IMO simply YES ! If that is indeed a real bird, than it is
1. from a different requirement .... and ...
2. a different weight-class
What remains to be seen, if it is simply a technology demonstrator (it would be at least SAC's first new design since decades !), for export or as a supplement / complement to the J-20.
Deino
flateric said:
IMO simply YES ! If that is indeed a real bird, than it is
1. from a different requirement .... and ...
2. a different weight-class
What remains to be seen, if it is simply a technology demonstrator (it would be at least SAC's first new design since decades !), for export or as a supplement / complement to the J-20.
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
Andreas - what do you think of engines? Ivchenko-Progress only comes to mind... some damn upgraded AI-222-25F
or something new from them or - indigenous design?
wish I could see bottom of engine nacelles
Andreas - what do you think of engines? Ivchenko-Progress only comes to mind... some damn upgraded AI-222-25F
or something new from them or - indigenous design?
wish I could see bottom of engine nacelles
siegecrossbow
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
The SAC already lost the competition to J-20. The so called "snow owl", which had a tri-plane configuration, was eliminated for being too long and too heavy.
What we need to watch out for is another twin-engined heavy strike fighter with conventional configuration. The F-60 seems to fit the profile of a medium multi-role platform (possibly supplementing or replacing the J-15 at a much later date) for naval applications.
flateric said:
The SAC already lost the competition to J-20. The so called "snow owl", which had a tri-plane configuration, was eliminated for being too long and too heavy.
What we need to watch out for is another twin-engined heavy strike fighter with conventional configuration. The F-60 seems to fit the profile of a medium multi-role platform (possibly supplementing or replacing the J-15 at a much later date) for naval applications.
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
Actually I'm not sure, but my bet would go to the RD-93 or the (at least for me still mysterious) WS-13.
I wish I could see the whole damn thing !!
Deino
flateric said:
Actually I'm not sure, but my bet would go to the RD-93 or the (at least for me still mysterious) WS-13.
I wish I could see the whole damn thing !!
Deino
Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
Has anybody asked the USAF to count their F-35s? Maybe we're witnessing a getaway
The North Korean 'fake' missiles, by the way, were generally thought to be 'fake real' - i.e. not fantasy, but pre-production mockups. There were various cable ducting choices etc that only made sense in this context, I seem to recall. So while they haven't yet entered service they've apparently been designed. The $35m TELs would be a bit of overkill for a potemkin parade.
Has anybody asked the USAF to count their F-35s? Maybe we're witnessing a getaway
The North Korean 'fake' missiles, by the way, were generally thought to be 'fake real' - i.e. not fantasy, but pre-production mockups. There were various cable ducting choices etc that only made sense in this context, I seem to recall. So while they haven't yet entered service they've apparently been designed. The $35m TELs would be a bit of overkill for a potemkin parade.
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
If we take the 15.05 Meters (49.37ft) measurement in the attached photo as roughly accurate this would make this aircraft nose to tail just slightly smaller than the J-10A at 15.49M (50.82ft) and larger than the JF-17 at 14.93M (48ft) in length.
This would indicate a medium size/class fighter just slightly smaller a Dassault Rafale. It's hard to see where this would fit into the current Chinese fighter force considering that the J-10B will be entering production in the near future. As already discussed maybe this is the Chinese answer to the F-35? BTW - notice in the foreground of the photo even more armed security. This amount of force indicates the importance of whatever this "thing" is.
If we take the 15.05 Meters (49.37ft) measurement in the attached photo as roughly accurate this would make this aircraft nose to tail just slightly smaller than the J-10A at 15.49M (50.82ft) and larger than the JF-17 at 14.93M (48ft) in length.
This would indicate a medium size/class fighter just slightly smaller a Dassault Rafale. It's hard to see where this would fit into the current Chinese fighter force considering that the J-10B will be entering production in the near future. As already discussed maybe this is the Chinese answer to the F-35? BTW - notice in the foreground of the photo even more armed security. This amount of force indicates the importance of whatever this "thing" is.
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
i agree that a possible medium sized, twin engined fighter has little room in future PLAAF.
the overall length is probably longer than 15 meters. Lately many high performance planes have horizontal tail surface hanging far behind, making the plane longer. Probably we are also missing engines there, so overall length could easely go to 16 meters or even a bit more.
i agree that a possible medium sized, twin engined fighter has little room in future PLAAF.
the overall length is probably longer than 15 meters. Lately many high performance planes have horizontal tail surface hanging far behind, making the plane longer. Probably we are also missing engines there, so overall length could easely go to 16 meters or even a bit more.
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
Why ??? ...as a successor to the numerous J-8 and later even Flankers, since surely not all will be replaced by the J-20 ... + the first generation J-10. IMO the best option however is a carrier-borne type.
Yepp ... completely agree with that.
totoro said:
Why ??? ...as a successor to the numerous J-8 and later even Flankers, since surely not all will be replaced by the J-20 ... + the first generation J-10. IMO the best option however is a carrier-borne type.
Yepp ... completely agree with that.
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Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!
Well if it is J-21, it definitely won't be coming into service until J-20 enters significant numbers (post 2019), and between now and then there is still a need for J-10Bs to fill the ranks of retiring J-7s. But by then, the oldest J-10s, J-11s and maybe even Q-5s (PLAAF seem intent on keeping them forever) will need replacing and they will need something in that class which is survivable for the 2020s, which J-10B may not be able to fill. Also by then the navy may desire a stealthy mid weight striker as well, and there has been speculation this plane is aimed for PLANAF eventually as well.
If this turns out to be a twin engined F-35 class fighter it won't be an answer to F-35 but more PLAAF's own medium weight stealth fighter (akin to all the ATD-X, KAI KF X, AMCA, TFX and what not that are popping up all over the place these days).
RSF said:
Well if it is J-21, it definitely won't be coming into service until J-20 enters significant numbers (post 2019), and between now and then there is still a need for J-10Bs to fill the ranks of retiring J-7s. But by then, the oldest J-10s, J-11s and maybe even Q-5s (PLAAF seem intent on keeping them forever) will need replacing and they will need something in that class which is survivable for the 2020s, which J-10B may not be able to fill. Also by then the navy may desire a stealthy mid weight striker as well, and there has been speculation this plane is aimed for PLANAF eventually as well.
If this turns out to be a twin engined F-35 class fighter it won't be an answer to F-35 but more PLAAF's own medium weight stealth fighter (akin to all the ATD-X, KAI KF X, AMCA, TFX and what not that are popping up all over the place these days).
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