Shenyang / Chengdu 6th Gen Demonstrators?

and to address the elephant in the room, I too am laughing at the idea of a super cruising J-36 plus a couple of advanced UCAVs controlling a large volume of airspace and spectrum overlapping so well with the Cadillac NGAD vision with the exquisite PCA and advanced CCAs. ROW vs Chinese defense purchasing power just got very real (again).
 
Basic technological independence, especially in an environment of ongoing legal disputes on flanker family(risk of outright cut off).
Making use of huge investment into ws-10.
Learning through use.
Keeping money at home working, within RMB loop.
Inner politics(engine manufacturer has teeth).
National pride, too.

Overall, you replace engines with local ones as soon as you can, immediately, even if they're good for not very reliable hundreds of hours only.
It's the right thing to do, and it's the only way to get started.

Realistically, ws-10 reached metrics matching 1990s al-31fs(not high, but a predictable bar) when they were displaced on j-10 and j-20 airframes, which is very late 2010s.

Which isn't exactly 117s level (2000s engine), much less the much hotter f-119.

Well how would you build a “5th” or “6th” generation aircraft with 1970s era western engine technology?
 
AB achieves this high velocity by adding a ton of heat to the exhaust.

Not just heat, by adding all of the that fuel the engine's exhaust mass-flow is dramatically increased too which dramatically increases the exhaust gases momentum.
 
Basic technological independence, especially in an environment of ongoing legal disputes on flanker family(risk of outright cut off).
Making use of huge investment into ws-10.
Learning through use.
Keeping money at home working, within RMB loop.
Inner politics(engine manufacturer has teeth).
National pride, too.

Overall, you replace engines with local ones as soon as you can, immediately, even if they're good for not very reliable hundreds of hours only.
It's the right thing to do, and it's the only way to get started.

Realistically, ws-10 reached metrics matching 1990s al-31fs(not high, but a predictable bar) when they were displaced on j-10 and j-20 airframes, which is very late 2010s.

Which isn't exactly 117s level (2000s engine), much less the much hotter f-119.
Sorry, gotta ask, this has always bothered me - my pilot acquaintance who flies helicopters said what kills engines is not hours of operation but rather start-stop cycles, as the engines experience the most stress during spin up/heat up, and regular operation is comparably rather gentle on the engine. Yet I never see this metric mentioned, and engine life is always measured in thousands of hours.
Is there an actual good reason for this, or is this another case of 'Excel engineering'?
 
Sorry, gotta ask, this has always bothered me - my pilot acquaintance who flies helicopters said what kills engines is not hours of operation but rather start-stop cycles, as the engines experience the most stress during spin up/heat up, and regular operation is comparably rather gentle on the engine. Yet I never see this metric mentioned, and engine life is always measured in thousands of hours.
Is there an actual good reason for this, or is this another case of 'Excel engineering'?
Modern Western engines use ‘on-condition‘ maintenance, which means that the engine is inspected regularly and maintained according to actual usage rather than a specific schedule– there is no requirement for scheduled engine removal and overhaul like with Russian engines. Engine lifespan could match the airframe - commercial CFM-56-3s have reached 40,000 hours 'on the wing' i.e. installed on the airplane. EJ200 gives a figure of 1200 hours 'on the wing' and engine should last the life of the Typhoon. I haven't immediately been able to find similar metrics for modern US engines.

The older Soviet/Russian approach typically puts less emphasis on regular inspections and instead effectively removes and rebuilds (remanufacturers) the entire engine every 500, 1000, 1500 hours etc.
 
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In respect of electrical power generation from a jet engine. How much one can actually draw for a jet engine of certain rating ?

Like say i have AL-31F with some 8000 Kgf of Dry thrust, this usually comes with GP-21 electrical generator with 30 KW capacity, can i say just to install GP-25 with 60 KW capacity ? How much loss of thrust i can expect from just switching to larger and larger generator ?
 
First time that I have heard that the J-50 is the Naval variant and the J-36 is the land based variant Scott Kenny, I had thought that both variants would be bought by the PLAAF and PLAN. :confused:


That's just a rumour and according toy most recent information "According to a friend with access to much better images, this „appears to be an incomplete or partially covered J-15. In an HD image it looks like the outer bit of the right wing is exposed and it has the FLANKER style profile and wingtip rail.“

By the way, great news ... @高山CG on Weibo is working on a CG showing SAC's 6th generation fighter!In fact I still prefer to use the interim designation J-XDS instead of J-50, which IMO is an unlikely designation. Cannot wait for the final artwork!

SAC J-XDS - CG - 高山CG - 9.jpg SAC J-XDS - CG - 高山CG - 8.jpg SAC J-XDS - CG - 高山CG - 7.jpg SAC J-XDS - CG - 高山CG - 6.jpg SAC J-XDS - CG - 高山CG - 5.jpg SAC J-XDS - CG - 高山CG - 4.jpg SAC J-XDS - CG - 高山CG - 3.jpg SAC J-XDS - CG - 高山CG - 2.jpg SAC J-XDS - CG - 高山CG - 1.jpg
 
Well how would you build a “5th” or “6th” generation aircraft with 1970s era western engine technology?
Being fair, there's a lot more performance metrics to an engine than lifespan, if the Chinese can achieve an engine performance similar or even better than F-119 albeit at perhaps 60 percent of the total engine lifespan with the WS-15(There's been a recent statement that WS-15 have a better performance envelope than the F-119, see attached below). It wouldn't really affect the aircrafts actual performance in flight but only hamper the lives of the ground crew a bit by needing slightly more "regular" engine replacement. Do note that western engines with lifespans up to 8000 hours are meant to be replaced once every ~30 years, so 60 percent of that would still be 18 years. Perhaps by the time the very first batch of WS-15 are nearing the end of their designed lifespan, China would have caught up to the bleeding edge on engine technology if not already before.

35399705c61f391d5d61314c39e8234.jpg
 
In respect of electrical power generation from a jet engine. How much one can actually draw for a jet engine of certain rating ?

Like say i have AL-31F with some 8000 Kgf of Dry thrust, this usually comes with GP-21 electrical generator with 30 KW capacity, can i say just to install GP-25 with 60 KW capacity ? How much loss of thrust i can expect from just switching to larger and larger generator ?
This unit ensures the operation of the Irbis radar. He also works on the B-70 during the entire flight.
Selected electric power, kVA 20-40


ta14.jpg
 
Not just heat, by adding all of the that fuel the engine's exhaust mass-flow is dramatically increased too which dramatically increases the exhaust gases momentum.
The fuel mass flow is almost negligible compared to air mass flow.

In respect of electrical power generation from a jet engine. How much one can actually draw for a jet engine of certain rating ?
It depends. You're removing power that would otherwise be available for the compressor so it impacts surge margin and hence high altitude performance. If you can accept this then it seems possible to double the electrical generation capacity from "normal" from multiple examples. But it all depends e.g. newer engines generally have higher electrical generation designed in from the start so doubling this is unlikely. The loss of thrust from the engine is very small - it's more impacting the operability envelope.
 
Totally agree. Lifespan's not everything, what matters is total cost of ownership. A couple of points:
  • I remember reading somewhere, that Soviets expected the pace of technological progress to be such, that new designs would be introduced every 15 years (which is roughly the time between the introduction of the MiG-23 and 29). If you assume a flight time of 200 hours/year, that'd mean a 3000 hour lifespan. Considering the J-20 entered service in 2017, a 15 year cadence would mean the J-50/36 would enter service in 2032 (my guess is it will be earlier than that).
  • Considering these shorter timelines, mass manufacturing capability is paramount - afaik F-35 production is still rate limited by the speed they can crank out engines
  • I'm not a materials science guy, but I feel like not a lot of new ground has been broken in the absolute high-end materials in the past 30-40 years. What has improved a lot, is our ability to a manufacture not-so high end stuff at industrial scale. The best carbon fiber is still hand-woven imo, but nowadays there's pretty good stuff made by gluing patches together with resin. Things like injection molding magnesium, and aluminium alloys is a thing now.
  • Our ability to work with lesser grade materials has improved a lot - there are hot hatches made of steel nowadays that outperform sports cars made in the 90s out of exotic stuff
  • Modern mass-manufacturing techiques favor having things factory sealed and thrown away. I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese made engines are made with light maintenance in mind, and instead of having a heavy maintance logistics chain, they just replace them
 
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Sorry, gotta ask, this has always bothered me - my pilot acquaintance who flies helicopters said what kills engines is not hours of operation but rather start-stop cycles, as the engines experience the most stress during spin up/heat up, and regular operation is comparably rather gentle on the engine. Yet I never see this metric mentioned, and engine life is always measured in thousands of hours.
Is there an actual good reason for this, or is this another case of 'Excel engineering'?
It's largely because older engines were designed under "replace X part every Y many hours" or "Inspect every Z many hours" and there are still a LOT of those older engines in use in helicopters and general aviation.

It wasn't until the F100 engines and IIRC CFM56 on the civilian side that engineers found out that cycle count is more important than total hours. (Also pressurization cycles for airframes. Remember the Aloha Airlines convertibles in the mid 1980s?) The F100 engines were needing a lot more maintenance early on in their life than anyone expected. USAF screams WTF, engineers realize that the pilots were cycling the engines from flight idle to full AB a lot more than the J79 engines in F4s (etc) were being cycled. The engineers had expected the pilots to move the throttles like in the F-4.



In respect of electrical power generation from a jet engine. How much one can actually draw for a jet engine of certain rating ?

Like say i have AL-31F with some 8000 Kgf of Dry thrust, this usually comes with GP-21 electrical generator with 30 KW capacity, can i say just to install GP-25 with 60 KW capacity ? How much loss of thrust i can expect from just switching to larger and larger generator ?
As an example, the P-8 Poseidon has a pair of 27,000lb thrust CFM56-7B27A engines. Those have double capacity generators installed to power the radar. 90kVA generators on the civilian 737NGs, 180kVA on the P-8. I believe the E-7 Wedgetail has the same setup, but am not finding a reference for that quickly.

There's not a really good conversion from thrust to horsepower, unfortunately. Too many variables involved in how much thrust an engine makes versus how very little there is involved in how much torque/horsepower you make when you pull power off the shaft. 180kVA is on the order of 250 horsepower to drive the generator, which is somewhere between 500 and 1000lbs less thrust. (I'm rounding here)
 
USAF screams WTF, engineers realize that the pilots were cycling the engines from flight idle to full AB a lot more than the J79 engines in F4s (etc) were being cycled.

Wasn't this referred to as slam-throttling? IIRC with the J79 it would be advanced to military thrust, allowed to settle then put into zone-1 reheat before going to full reheat.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese made engines that are made with light maintenance in mind, and instead of having a heavy maintance logistics chain, they just replace them
The "everything LRU" approach. And just about many current Chinese commercial products. Good enough, if faulty, buy new. It's an interesting approach and has proven to outcompete legacy brands (Tupperware etc).
 
Wasn't this referred to as slam-throttling? IIRC with the J79 it would be advanced to military thrust, allowed to settle then put into zone-1 reheat before going to full reheat.
Not sure, what I heard/read was that the pilots were going to and from max thrust a lot more often than was happening in the J79-powered planes.

For example, instead of going to max throttle just to close in or extend out, pilots would cut throttle in the middle of a turn and then go to max throttle at the end of the turn to regain the energy, and they'd do that for every turn in the dogfight.
 
You might want to read thru this thread: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ruise-performance-and-2nd-stage-engine.38521/

Short version - for supersonic thrust, you need exhaust velocity faster than the speed of the aircraft. AB achieves this high velocity by adding a ton of heat to the exhaust. At Mil power, you need a very high exhaust pressure (i.e. nozzle pressure ratio) to get the necessary exhaust velocity. Once you reach the aircraft velocity equal the exhaust velocity, you have zero net thrust. Adding a third engine in this condition still gives you zero net thrust.

In addition to high NPR (engine pressure ratio x ram pressure ratio = nozzle pressure ratio) needed to supersonic thrust, most engines run into a turbine and / or rotor speed limit as the inlet temperature goes up with increasing Mach number. At any Mn / inlet temperature above this, the engine performance progressively goes down with both airflow and engine pressure ratio decreasing, lowering NPR and exhaust velocity, which reduces the supersonic thrust. And unless the 3rd engine design is optimized for a different part of the flight envelope, it is just as impacted by increasing inlet temperatures as the other two.

Ah, that makes perfect sense, thanks!
 
Not just heat, by adding all of the that fuel the engine's exhaust mass-flow is dramatically increased too which dramatically increases the exhaust gases momentum.
True, but it is is not a dramatic increase in mass flow. With stoichiometric being around 15:1 air to fuel, and the main combustor already burning around half of the O2, the AB will only be adding about 1/30th to the total mass flow. A higher bypass engine would add more fuel, but it is still on the order of 5% added mass flow.
 
Not sure, what I heard/read was that the pilots were going to and from max thrust a lot more often than was happening in the J79-powered planes.

For example, instead of going to max throttle just to close in or extend out, pilots would cut throttle in the middle of a turn and then go to max throttle at the end of the turn to regain the energy, and they'd do that for every turn in the dogfight.
It was the reducing power toward Idle to slow down to corner velocity that was the surprise. The increased performance of the F-15 and F-15 compared to the F-4 which was usually at Mil or Max AB in a fight that greatly increased the cycle count.

The F100 counted cycles as 1 cycle being from Shutdown to Mil to Shutdown, and Mil to Idle to Mil as a 1/4 cycle. This is a composite of how the cycles affect different parts of the engine, with pressure vessels and turbine blades probably being 1:1, and shutting down the engine is the worst thing for compressor and turbine disks, affecting them at something like 10:1. The newest engines (F119 and F135) use data streaming and structural models to calculate the life usage for each tracked part individually.
 
True, but it is is not a dramatic increase in mass flow. With stoichiometric being around 15:1 air to fuel, and the main combustor already burning around half of the O2, the AB will only be adding about 1/30th to the total mass flow. A higher bypass engine would add more fuel, but it is still on the order of 5% added mass flow.
Except that a jet engine only burns about 1/4 the ingested air, the rest is used for keeping the turbines from overheating.

This means that you can add enough fuel to burn all the leftover oxygen in the afterburner, which means up to 3x the fuel mass flow compared to what the engine burns. For a straight turbojet. Turbofans mean even more available oxygen, so a 1:1 bypass ratio jet could burn up to 8x the MIL fuel mass in max AB.

IIRC, an afterburning TF41 can get 26klbs thrust in AB and 14klbs in MIL.
 
Except that a jet engine only burns about 1/4 the ingested air, the rest is used for keeping the turbines from overheating.

This means that you can add enough fuel to burn all the leftover oxygen in the afterburner, which means up to 3x the fuel mass flow compared to what the engine burns. For a straight turbojet. Turbofans mean even more available oxygen, so a 1:1 bypass ratio jet could burn up to 8x the MIL fuel mass in max AB.

IIRC, an afterburning TF41 can get 26klbs thrust in AB and 14klbs in MIL.
A F100-220 has a sea level airflow of approx 224 lbs / sec. At Mil power, burns a little less than 4 lbs /second fuel flow. At Max AB, burns about 14 lbs / second fuel flow. So about 10 lbs / sec fuel added to the 224 lbs / second airflow. So about 4.5% added mass flow from the AB fuel addition.
 
Well how would you build a “5th” or “6th” generation aircraft with 1970s era western engine technology?
Well, 1990s Russia is not only properly reliable AL-31FN, it is also AL-41F (article 20) on mig 1.44 in the air, not just on engine test aircraft.
It wasn't finished, but not because it was impossible.
I.e. it isn't exactly a low bar.

As many posters say, Ws-15 doesn't need to clock 8000 hrs to make Chinese aircraft a menace.

It's going to be expensive, sure, but even reliable 500 is enough for early silver bullet capability, esp. on a multi-engine bird.
Endurance testing can be done in parallel.
 
Guys … are we still in the China‘s 6th generation thread?

All I read since pages are hypothetical discussions on unproven things presented as facts, old stereotypes presented as whatever and now endless discussions as if these theories are facts!

If there is nothing new to discuss since no new facts are known, it‘s probably better NOT to post!?
 
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I don't think this has been posted before, but apparently Chinese ambassador Wu Hailong officially confirmed the aircraft flown last year was a 6th generation fighter prototype in a speech 2 days ago. I believe this should be the first official confirmation from the Chinese government about the nature of the aircrafts.
 
Thanks Alpha_Particle, that would be something to look out for in Chinese language news articles in the future.
 
IMO the distinctions are woolly enough it doesn't matter what word is actually used. A technology demonstrator is going to give you some of the functionality of a prototype, a prototype can incorporate technology demonstrations. The real measure is how much changes between there and production. LRIP is a bit more definitive, but even that can be subject to change (cf F-35B bulkhead cracking).
 
I don't think this has been posted before, but apparently Chinese ambassador Wu Hailong officially confirmed the aircraft flown last year was a 6th generation fighter prototype in a speech 2 days ago. I believe this should be the first official confirmation from the Chinese government about the nature of the aircrafts.
He's Assistant Minister of Foreign Affairs according to https://www.mfa.gov.cn/eng/zy/wjrw/lrfbzjbzzl_665553/202405/t20240531_11367657.html

Important to remember he's a diplomat, not an engineer. His job is to boost China's rep, not be 100% accurate in what he says.
 
He's Assistant Minister of Foreign Affairs according to https://www.mfa.gov.cn/eng/zy/wjrw/lrfbzjbzzl_665553/202405/t20240531_11367657.html

Important to remember he's a diplomat, not an engineer. His job is to boost China's rep, not be 100% accurate in what he says.
Still, words from a high-ranking official are still very important if they officially announce something. The main takeaway point here isn't about any engineering aspects (He doesn't really mention them anyways only calling it a 6th generation figther), it's about the fact that they are confirming its indeed a fighter and not a bomber or fighter-bomber. Also, someone like him fumbling a bomber or strike aircraft as a fighter seems very unlikely in a publicized speech (Which are probably double checked by experts and stuff), so I feel like this is genuine official confirmation of a fighter.
 
Still, words from a high-ranking official are still very important if they officially announce something. The main takeaway point here isn't about any engineering aspects (He doesn't really mention them anyways only calling it a 6th generation figther), it's about the fact that they are confirming its indeed a fighter and not a bomber or fighter-bomber. Also, someone like him fumbling a bomber or strike aircraft as a fighter seems very unlikely in a publicized speech (Which are probably double checked by experts and stuff), so I feel like this is genuine official confirmation of a fighter.
That is an interesting conundrum. Your signature is "Everybody lies" but then stand by the words of a member of the Foreign Ministry of China which has about as much credibility as Baghdad Bob...
 
That is an interesting conundrum. Your signature is "Everybody lies" but then stand by the words of a member of the Foreign Ministry of China which has about as much credibility as Baghdad Bob...
I do not see a reason for him to lie, it's not like they just came out with "We have flown a 6th gen prototype" without any proof or prior announcement. This is after basically everyone saw the new planes unless your suggesting those are CGI, I don't see where your getting this.
 

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