Shenyang / Chengdu 6th Gen Demonstrators?

Were I to stage an attack against Taiwan, I'd begin with with j7 feints...get the air defense guys haggard.

With each feint, I sneak in a J-20 and listen for chatter.

During the attack proper I have my worst J7s as loyal wingman and stay in the back in my J-20 as the fishbeds seem to go wild weasel. I target what targets them.

J-36 is well behind me--they launch munitions at Formosan targets and use a gun on anything that gets behind me to spook interceptors.

The rest of the J-7s of China are suicide drones and they come in last--junking engines while Taiwanese aircraft are occupied with me.

The J-36s would have NO air-to-air missiles, and hide amidst the last wave(s) of J-7s...some of which refuel me and the pilot bails.

Lack of stealth is an asset here--because Allied forces might expect J-36 to come in first, then J-20s, then J-7s last.

I on the other hand mix it up--so you don't know what's what.

Wear you out with feints--then wear you down.

The Long View.
 
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I don't even believe that it is high Mach capable.
View: https://x.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1874087980492792145

It's almost confirmed that the J-36 is not meant to fly high supersonic given the information we have and from this post by Deino.

I'm just wondering why can't the caret intake have a flexible portion/bump in the throat itself that can change it's size and geometry sort of like a ramp to control the supersonic flow. Since it's already being studied in China, yes it's theoretical. But what makes you believe it's 99% pure theory and cannot be implemented in the real world?
Variable inlets mean gaps to allow motion. Those gaps are terrible for stealth (notable exception for the full conical inlets as on Blackbirds).

A DSI bump would need to translate forward somehow and get bigger. That would require flexible skin, which hasn't been demonstrated to my knowledge. A composite skin that is as flexible as human skin, at that!
 
I don't even believe that it is high Mach capable.
View: https://x.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1874087980492792145

It's almost confirmed that the J-36 is not meant to fly high supersonic given the information we have and from this post by Deino.

I'm just wondering why can't the caret intake have a flexible portion/bump in the throat itself that can change it's size and geometry sort of like a ramp to control the supersonic flow. Since it's already being studied in China, yes it's theoretical. But what makes you believe it's 99% pure theory and cannot be implemented in the real world?
I am not an aeronautical engineer, so just consider it as an opinion.
I am an engineer but in other area, not related to airplanes.

But for what it is known in real intakes.

DSI have fixed bumps for two reasons first DIS are fixed because they are designed like that so no mechanical parts are needed reducing costs and maintenance.
The DSI bump is fixed because has no moving parts and is made from the fuselage skin material.

Caret intakes have flat ramps, like on wedge intakes or 2D intake as those seen on MiG-23 or F-15s, These ramps have mechanical parts on Su-57 with variable geometry and are fixed on F-22 with no variable geometry.

The main problem is how to make a material that can grow, inflate or swell in a way it does not damage the fuselage adjacent panels and at the same time narrows the intake throat.

In my humble opinion, and I say opinion that material does not exist, at least in the west where DSI are also made, F-35 has a simple DSI and the figures given are what reality real numbers are Mach 1.6.
At least for what real aircraft are concerned, F-35 has not such technologies.
 
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I am not an aeronautical engineer, so just consider it as an opinion.
I am an engineer but in other area, not related to airplanes.

But for what it is known in real intakes.

DSI have fixed bumps for two reasons first DIS are fixed because they are designed like that so no mechanical parts are needed reducing costs and maintenance.
The DSI bump is fixed because has no moving parts and is made from the fuselage skin material.

Caret intakes have flat ramps, like on wedge intakes or 2D intake as those seen on MiG-23 or F-15s, These ramps have mechanical parts on Su-57 with variable geometry and are fixed on F-22 with no variable geometry.

The main problem is how to make a material that can grow, inflate or swell in a way it does not damage the fuselage adjacent panels and at the same time narrows the intake throat.

In my humble opinion, and I say opinion that material does not exist, at least in the west where DSI are also made, F-35 has a simple DSI and the figures given are what reality real numbers are Mach 1.6.
At least for what real aircraft are concerned, F-35 has not such technologies.
F14,

There has been advances by Boeing to make variable geometry DSI's for their 6th Gen program, reference:

 

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You or him are not wrong, remember these 2 factors, F-117 has no afterburner.
And Intakes are designed for several speeds, the intake on F-16 can go from 0 to Mach 2, its efficiency is what matters.

At Mach 1 the intakes works well, but by Mach 1.3 the intake will lose efficiency, thus you have ramps or sliding spikes or semi cones to move the supersonic shocks and reduce the intake throat.
Capture.JPG
 
A thought occurred to me - if these systems are indeed real and installed on the J-36, then they would render the idea of dogfighting utterly impossible - these missiles, even though they were designed to shoot down other missiles, would do just as well against aircraft, should they come into range of probably not more than low tens of kilometers.
Dogfighting is larger process than pure wartime maneuvering.
Just like ranged weaponry (from bows to theater missiles) doesn't prevent the need for ships to ram each other - in peacetime.

Overall, seems rather wasteful.
Dogfighting is ultimately a process of pointing your your weapons and sensors at the opponent, while denying him the same. Sensors can be made 720, this is not a problem and already happened in 5th generation(to be fair, for this exact reason I'd rather call 2020s 5th gens "5.5"; raptor here is a clear outlier).

Speed is vector quantity, such launch does little good other than emposing requirements on the launcher and interceptor(both to make it launch safely and always waste energy on solving high offbore).
Weapons on patent are painted small, almost countermeasure level small Counterflow interceptor, capable of outmatching proper forward launch in energy in all aspects, won't be this small.

Carrying lots of counterflow shorter range weapons onboard a vehicle, that by definition can and should escape from unfavorable engagements, is wasteful.

Overall, I'd rather expect J-36 to try defend itself with PL-15s, while getting the h out of being under fire.
And frankly speaking, IMHO j-20 with pl-10s is much better positioned for either WVR or defending itself through interception of attacking munitions.
 
Gotta be folding fins in that case.

If the side bays are big enough for PL15s, what does that make the overall length of the aircraft?



The idea of a fighter without afterburner, whether for faster takeoffs or for going supersonic, is kinda ludicrous.
I believe the J-36 is no more a fighter than the F-117, which in fact does not have reheat.
 
A DSI bump would need to translate forward somehow and get bigger. That would require flexible skin, which hasn't been demonstrated to my knowledge. A composite skin that is as flexible as human skin, at that!
Flexible skin was demonstrated on the NASA AFTI/MAW (Mission Adaptable Wing) F-111A some time ago.
 
I believe the J-36 is no more a fighter than the F-117, which in fact does not have reheat.
Saying that aircraft with clear a2a bays and main sensors, regardless of purpose of the main bay(which at least is indeed multipurpose), is no more a fighter than aircraft that literally can't engage air target...
Well, it's not obvious.
 
Saying that aircraft with clear a2a bays and main sensors, regardless of purpose of the main bay(which at least is indeed multipurpose), is no more a fighter than aircraft that literally can't engage air target...
Well, it's not obvious.
There is a tendency, aircraft from 11000 to 30000kg are usually fighters, around 40000 or more are attack aircraft and their G limits go down.

MiG-31 at at max weight is a 5Gs fighter, at max weight.

Now is speculation but by the landing gear similar to Su-34 and MiG-31 you can expect a very heavy weight aircraft, you can not expect that at 50000kg J-36 will pull 9Gs sorry but structures will not allow it, that aircraft has a low G capability, multiply 45000kg per 9 and you can get an approximation of its G load.

Of course all of these is speculation since no specifications are know, but you can guess a heavy weight.
 
Saying that aircraft with clear a2a bays and main sensors, regardless of purpose of the main bay(which at least is indeed multipurpose), is no more a fighter than aircraft that literally can't engage air target...
Well, it's not obvious.

It somewhat reminds me of when General Goldfein in the 2016 who compared J-20 and F-117 for some strange reason because he was under the impression it didn't emphasize networking or emphasize fighting as a system of systems.



I'm not sure what the pattern is with people and comparing PRC stealth aircraft with F-117...


There is a tendency, aircraft from 11000 to 30000kg are usually fighters, around 40000 or more are attack aircraft and their G limits go down.

MiG-31 at at max weight is a 5Gs fighter, at max weight.

Now is speculation but by the landing gear similar to Su-34 and MiG-31 you can expect a very heavy weight aircraft, you can not expect that at 50000kg J-36 will pull 9Gs sorry but structures will not allow it, that aircraft has a low G capability, multiply 45000kg per 9 and you can get an approximation of its G load.

Of course all of these is speculation since no specifications are know, but you can guess a heavy weight.

The question shouldn't be "is J-36 a fighter" because the word "fighter" makes people think about high G maneuvering.

Instead, the question should be "is J-36 primarily air to air oriented in mission set" and the answer to that is yes. The next question after that is to ask what traits it emphasizes and how it's meant to fight.

Things like stealth, range, altitude, speed, high speed maneuvering, are all important yes -- but also think about power generation, sensors, networking, weapons, and command capability.
 
There is a tendency, aircraft from 11000 to 30000kg are usually fighters, around 40000 or more are attack aircraft and their G limits go down.

MiG-31 at at max weight is a 5Gs fighter, at max weight.

Now is speculation but by the landing gear similar to Su-34 and MiG-31 you can expect a very heavy weight aircraft, you can not expect that at 50000kg J-36 will pull 9Gs sorry but structures will not allow it, that aircraft has a low G capability, multiply 45000kg per 9 and you can get an approximation of its G load.

Of course all of these is speculation since no specifications are know, but you can guess a heavy weight.
(1)45t class mig 1.42 was a thing. If that thing wasn't meant to be maneuverable - few aircraft do.
(2) Maneuvering isn't a strict requirement for an a2a aircraft. You've mentioned mig-31 (other heavy interceptors like tu-128 or yf-12). In the end, BVR can be done without maneuver(very, very few aircraft truly can do BVR maneuvering on supersonic speeds anyway, and even those that can are suspected, not confirmed).
So in fact can WVR, at least to some degree
 
F14,

There has been advances by Boeing to make variable geometry DSI's for their 6th Gen program, reference:

This still implies a discontinuity in the skin where the spiral cone exits. And that discontinuity is where the RCS troubles happen.

The best variable inlet for RCS is a full spike like on the Blackbird, where the gaps where the parts move are concealed from the radars.
 
Thanks sferrin for putting the YF-23 image up. Non-variable ramped inlets, spikes or bumps, M2.0 capable and a classified supercruise speed. Now an F-23A with the half-cone inlet, refined inlet design including the OML and production rated F120 (or F135) engines, imagine the the performance of a production F-23A, definitely a M2.0 supercruiser and very high sustained turn rates. The second YF-23 was able to sustain a 6.5g climbing, supercruise turn rate and could still accelerate while climbing, that's performance.
 
This J-36 is not a fighter but a strike/medium bomber platform. They probably need the three engines to get their desired performance and is not designed to be agile like a true fighter. It probably has good high-speed, low altitude capability but we are all speculating of course.
 
Also, everyone has seen the videos of F-22 and SU-57 maneuverability but I have not seen one video showing the type of agility has displayed by the 22 or 57 even though the Chinese claim the 20 does. They have been bold showing these two new platforms but I think the J-20 does not have the performance as touted. The MiG 1.44 was not stealthy and was a dog that is why the Russians never moved forward with it, even though they claimed it was stealthy.
 
This J-36 is not a fighter but a strike/medium bomber platform. They probably need the three engines to get their desired performance and is not designed to be agile like a true fighter. It probably has good high-speed, low altitude capability but we are all speculating of course.
I'm expecting it to use the same WS10 engines as the J-20 (and a bunch of other planes), so it's got ~81-93klbs of thrust.
 
(1)45t class mig 1.42 was a thing. If that thing wasn't meant to be maneuverable - few aircraft do.
(2) Maneuvering isn't a strict requirement for an a2a aircraft. You've mentioned mig-31 (other heavy interceptors like tu-128 or yf-12). In the end, BVR can be done without maneuver(very, very few aircraft truly can do BVR maneuvering on supersonic speeds anyway, and even those that can are suspected, not confirmed).
So in fact can WVR, at least to some degree
I will tell you my opinion about J-36


It is a heavy weight aircraft basically a Su-34 type it can do Air to Air but in BVR.
It is heavy, not very fast, probably in the region of Mach 1.6 and not very maneuverable.

Why I think so, first Deltas without canards and aft tail are not the best fighters, being heavy and relying on split rudders will not be very controllable at high speeds, it has fixed intakes.

If it has a high energy weapon then I think it could be 6th generation, if it does not well many UCAVs should be called 6th generation.

Any way happy new year. the rest you already know my opinion there is no need to repeat my self
 
Thanks sferrin for putting the YF-23 image up. Non-variable ramped inlets, spikes or bumps, M2.0 capable and a classified supercruise speed. Now an F-23A with the half-cone inlet, refined inlet design including the OML and production rated F120 (or F135) engines, imagine the the performance of a production F-23A, definitely a M2.0 supercruiser and very high sustained turn rates. The second YF-23 was able to sustain a 6.5g climbing, supercruise turn rate and could still accelerate while climbing, that's performance.
YF-23 has a flat fixed intake (it is basically a caret), it has no variable geometry but as a caret it has flat surfaces with drilled holes to suck boundary layer it has no proper ramps but so F-22 and its caret only Su-57 has ramps of variable geometry.

In my opinion it is very unlikely J-36 has Variable geometry caret since its DSI is very likely fixed, it might have other technologies but I doubt it.

the Jet has many technologies already seen, in my opinion, it is a weird attempt to create a 6th generation strange aircraft, time will tell.

So you do not need to believe me only believe what time will unveil, but I am almost sure it is not as advanced as internet sources claim.
 
Also, everyone has seen the videos of F-22 and SU-57 maneuverability but I have not seen one video showing the type of agility has displayed by the 22 or 57 even though the Chinese claim the 20 does. They have been bold showing these two new platforms but I think the J-20 does not have the performance as touted. The MiG 1.44 was not stealthy and was a dog that is why the Russians never moved forward with it, even though they claimed it was stealthy.
To be fair, the kind of maneuverability that matters the most can't be directly shown at airshows anyways. Sure, in certain situations post-stall etc matters(as, in general, more control over aircraft is always better than less, just because), but overall no one seriously aimed at WVR as the main regime since 1980s (though certain someone in fact started aiming at closing distance as much as possible to do a sure shots, but this is kinda different from maneuvering). Most certainly not Russia, btw, despite whatever airshows tell you.

Airshows show that can be shown - both to entertain the crowd(and by extension - politicians and decision makers), and show aspects of maneuvering that have impact in other, faster speed regimes. There's no good airshow if you perform at 15km up (no one can see sh, and it looks lazy anyway), there's no good airshow if you just wounded(or killed by panic) tens of thousands of viewers by doing supersonic stuff low.

From aerodynamic pow, unless J-20 is somehow completely wrong, it has all the rights(and it isn't first CAC/fbw delta canard anyway). Furthermore, the fact it is in mass production(and not production into storage, like F-35, or, say, Su-27 for first 5 iirc years of its serial run) is a statement that there's hardly anything major wrong with this platform.
We know f-22 problems, we know f-35 problems, we know su-57 problems(delays are telling even if nothing surfaces). J-20 just went past all of them.

As for mig 1.44(demonstrator for 1.42). It simply got outdated during the post-soviet decade; thing was meant for service in mid-1990s, but as a matter of fact, its demonstrator flew in 1997, with major chunk of development cost still ahead. Russia either could push with it anyway like other eurocanards(no money to accept conceptual fail, only enough money to somehow finish what's already been done) but even later(like, mid 2010s), or admit that whole "reduced signature" thing isn't right, and begin from scratch reducing it properly(and living on 4++ stopgap, which eventually became su-35s).
They've chosen the latter.
 
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Characteristics of the J-36M serial version (J-36 demonstrator)

Length 22.8 m
Wingspan 24 m
Height 3.5 m (4.3 m)
The wing area is 227 m2
Volume 107.4 m3 (116 m3)
The volume of weapon bays is 23.3 m3 / 22% (20%)

Weight:
Maximum 58700 kg (58900 kg)
Normal 40200 kg (41200 kg)
Fuel 18000 kg / PTB 10000 kg (16400 kg)
Loads of 12,000 kg (12,000 kg)
Empty 28,500 kg (30300 kg)

Engines:
Thrust 2 x 23100 kgf / 14250 kgf (3 x 15400 kgf / 9500 kgf)
Fuel consumption 0.57 kg/kgf*h (0.67 kg/kgf*h)

Maximum speed 2200 km/h, M=2.1 (1900 km/h, M=1.79)
Cruising speed 1800 km/h, M=1.7 (1470 km/h, M=1.38)

Flight range:
Subsonic 4,100 km (2,900 km)
Supersonic 2,600 km (1,600 km)
Subsonic with one tank in weapon bays 5000 km (3600 km)
Subsonic with two tanks in weapon bays 5,500 km (4,000 km)

6g operational overload
RCS 0.28 m2 (0.3 m2)

4 PL-17 + 4 PL-15 = 4 * 400 kg + 4 * 225 kg = 2500 kg
8 FAB-500 + 4 PL-15 = 4900 kg
2 KD-21 + 4 PL-15 = 2 * 5000 kg + 4 * 225 kg = 10900 kg
4 X-55 + 4 PL-15 = 2 * 1185kg + 4 * 225 kg = 5640kg
2 PTB-5000 + 4 PL-15 = 2 * 5500 kg + 4 * 225 kg = 11900 kg (fuel tank in weapons bay)

Total combat effectiveness 3.874
J-20 – 1.9, F-22 – 2.14, NGAD – 3.74, Su-57 – 3.24
 

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Same reason I posted the YF-23
The angle of the "first oblique jump" is 52 degrees. This corresponds to a maximum speed of 2200 km/h. Unlike the F-22, the air intake of the F-23 is optimized not for cruising, but for maximum speed.

MiG-29, Su-27, Su-57 59 degrees, speed 2500 km/h
52 / 59 * 2500 km/h = 2203 km/h
 

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From aerodynamic pow, unless J-20 is somehow completely wrong, it has all the rights(and it isn't first CAC/fbw delta canard anyway). Furthermore, the fact it is in mass production(and not production into storage, like F-35, or, say, Su-27 for first 5 iirc years of its serial run) is a statement that there's hardly anything major wrong with this platform.
We know f-22 problems, we know f-35 problems, we know su-57 problems(delays are telling even if nothing surfaces). J-20 just went past all of them.

Do we know for a fact that the J-20 has had no issues?

If it has actually had no issues, is that because it is not pushing the envelope in its deployment and use?

Is it because its envelope is non-challenging?

The F-22 and 35 have been operationally used in tactical situations for some time now.

The Su-57 has had some recent use.

As for the J-20, it has not been used tactically, and all I can recall of its appearances has been pretty standard - but on that point, I am willing to be educated.
 
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Do we know for a fact that the J-20 has had no issues?
Well, we know that China has made 300+ of the things, and hasn't slowed or paused production once they got going.

So if it's got issues, they aren't stopping production to fix them.


As for the J-20, it has not been used tactically, and all I can recall of its appearances has been pretty standard - but on that point, I am willing to be educated.
Has there been any really impressive airshow demos of the J-20? And are those available to watch online anywhere?
 
Were I to stage an attack against Taiwan, I'd begin with with j7 feints...get the air defense guys haggard.

With each feint, I sneak in a J-20 and listen for chatter.

During the attack proper I have my worst J7s as loyal wingman and stay in the back in my J-20 as the fishbeds seem to go wild weasel. I target what targets them.

J-36 is well behind me--they launch munitions at Formosan targets and use a gun on anything that gets behind me to spook interceptors.

The rest of the J-7s of China are suicide drones and they come in last--junking engines while Taiwanese aircraft are occupied with me.

The J-36s would have NO air-to-air missiles, and hide amidst the last wave(s) of J-7s...some of which refuel me and the pilot bails.

Lack of stealth is an asset here--because Allied forces might expect J-36 to come in first, then J-20s, then J-7s last.

I on the other hand mix it up--so you don't know what's what.

Wear you out with feints--then wear you down.

The Long View.

The issue is, having J-7 (and previously J-6) modified to UCAV/bait will always cost more than building an all new, better performance UAV/UCAV.

And even though J-36 will act as the node, it will still be armed for sure, as in the battle space anything can happen.
 
Care to explain or at least mention what issues?

I am not a China or Chinese mil expert. I leave it to them to sift through audited budget and program documents on various Chinese high profile military programs like I and others spend time doing for US systems.
 
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I am not a China or Chinese mil expert. I leave it to them to sift through audited budget and program documents on various Chinese high profile military programs like I and others spend time doing for US systems.
Care to explain or at least mention what issues?
His original comment was ironic... I think.
 
The angle of the "first oblique jump" is 52 degrees. This corresponds to a maximum speed of 2200 km/h. Unlike the F-22, the air intake of the F-23 is optimized not for cruising, but for maximum speed.

MiG-29, Su-27, Su-57 59 degrees, speed 2500 km/h
52 / 59 * 2500 km/h = 2203 km/h
That's not the YF-23.
 
And a pretty damn good try at explaining the J-50 configuration. Is this 100% accurate? That would make the J-50 even more impressive aerodynamically than the J-36, imo anyway.
View: https://x.com/xmszeon/status/1874428854556864516

Really curious how they fit in the actuators that power the all moving slabs. I think this interpretation might be too radical. Sure the slabs could be folded, but all moving as well?
 
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This still implies a discontinuity in the skin where the spiral cone exits. And that discontinuity is where the RCS troubles happen.

The best variable inlet for RCS is a full spike like on the Blackbird, where the gaps where the parts move are concealed from the radars.
I think that it isn't so much a discontinuity as an under device that stretches a covering to a desired contour, maintaining RCS integrity.
 

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