Shenyang / Chengdu "6th Gen" Aircraft - News and Analysis

His original comment was ironic... I think.

People in the west often project a flawless execution of development programs onto that lack of information or accountability. But the high level corruption cases of the last year or so seem to indicate that even the PRC has flaws in its bureaucracy.

[edited for politics - Admin]
 
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And a pretty damn good try at explaining the J-50 configuration. Is this 100% accurate? That would make the J-50 even more impressive aerodynamically than the J-36, imo anyway.
View: https://x.com/xmszeon/status/1874428854556864516
I did some configuration tests in a sim I have for this and it flies WELL. I used SimplePlanes (burn me for it) the physics are simplified, but it can do a good amount as far as CG, thrust line, airfoil shape, etc. I was able to get it down to nearly 120 mph at 30° pitch. The design is not very stable with the elevators at 0°, I didn't have time to make split rudders for the wing. I augmented the thrust for yaw and it held well.
 

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People in the west often project a flawless execution of development programs onto that lack of information or accountability. But the high level corruption cases of the last year or so seem to indicate that even the PRC has flaws in its bureaucracy.
Quite an irrelevant response if I may. Why an abstract, focus-shifting response to a relatively simple question: what are the so-called "pretty scathing issues" in the recent DOT&E report on the J-20 assuming he's unironically saying so?
 
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I did some configuration tests in a sim I have for this and it flies WELL. I used SimplePlanes (burn me for it) the physics are simplified, but it can do a good amount as far as CG, thrust line, airfoil shape, etc. I was able to get it down to nearly 120 mph at 30° pitch. The design is not very stable with the elevators at 0°, I didn't have time to make split rudders for the wing. I augmented the thrust for yaw and it held well.
Allegedly this has all-moving wingtips instead of split rudders.
 
Really curious how they fit in the actuators that power the all moving slabs. I think this interpretation might be too radical. Sure the slabs could be folded, but all moving as well?
The blisters on the underside cover the actuators except for the two, split outboard surfaces, could be multiple, smaller linear cylinders (like the YF-23) or rotary hingeline units. I don't think the aircraft uses Electrohydrostatic Actuators (EHA) as the F-35 uses. The F-35 EHAs are very large units. As an example, take a look at the fairings below the F-35 horizontal stabilizers, this will give you an idea how much envelope is required to house an EHA. I think the J-36 is probably using a common, distributed hydro power system, maybe operating at 5000 psig mainly for weight savings (also since it seems to be a prototype). Also, anyone familiar with the F-104, the 104 used what is nicknamed "piccolo" actuators to power the ailerons due to the very thin outer wing cross-section. Ten (five per redundant system) small hydro cylinders in a machined block, very interesting how Lockheed solved the problem.
 
I am not a China or Chinese mil expert. I leave it to them to sift through audited budget and program documents on various Chinese high profile military programs like I and others spend time doing for US systems.


Well, at least you said "The recent DOT&E report on the J-20 had some pretty scathing things to say about a whole host of issues." ... therefore I'm interested in what issues they refer!
 
I hope someday he'll tell us which he liked better, the YF-23 or the F-22A.
I have have heard unofficially from former NG colleagues (both engineering and pilots) that Paul had stated and knew the YF-23/F-23 was the best all-around aircraft as compared to the YF/F-22 or any other fighter. If you watch some videos of Paul being interviewed as well, he stated the YF-23 is by far the best aircraft he has ever flown and was stated when he was flying the F-22 for LM. The 23 was well ahead of its time and that I think was a handicap regarding Northrop/NG, the corp developed well advanced platforms (the older flying wing family as examples). Its like, we can give you what your spec states but we can give so much more to blow everyone else away. Great approach for tech but hurts trying to win a program.

NG could still win the F/A-XX program.
 
Here the angle is greater - 65 degrees. Maximum speed for duralumin aircraft :)

A set of seal jumps determines the length of the air intake duct. It cannot be less than a certain limit.

YF-23 - 3.7 m
Su-27 - 4.6 m
Su-57 - 4.4 m

3.7 m : 4.5m * 2500 km/h = 2056 km/h
 

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I have have heard unofficially from former NG colleagues (both engineering and pilots) that Paul had stated and knew the YF-23/F-23 was the best all-around aircraft as compared to the YF/F-22 or any other fighter. If you watch some videos of Paul being interviewed as well, he stated the YF-23 is by far the best aircraft he has ever flown and was stated when he was flying the F-22 for LM. The 23 was well ahead of its time and that I think was a handicap regarding Northrop/NG, the corp developed well advanced platforms (the older flying wing family as examples). Its like, we can give you what your spec states but we can give so much more to blow everyone else away. Great approach for tech but hurts trying to win a program.

NG could still win the F/A-XX program.
I sure hope so because I can't see Boeing doing a good job and I can't see the .gov giving everything to LM again.
 
I am not a China or Chinese mil expert. I leave it to them to sift through audited budget and program documents on various Chinese high profile military programs like I and others spend time doing for US systems.

Considering there are no equivalent documents for the PLA, the whole point of PLA watching is acknowledging that we are only aware of a handful of milestones that happen to be high profile enough to make it to us.

Other milestones and information, both "negative" and "positive" are very scarce in comparison to say, what the US publishes.

OTOH if you are saying the US has published something about the J-20, feel free to refer to the documents you're talking about and justify their credibility.
 
There are a lot of details on challenges encountered during J-20 development in AVIC’s retrospective on aircraft development published in 2020 I think? During one test flight (2002 or 2004 prototype) almost crashed due to avionics issue during landing with strong side wind conditions. Pilot managed clipped the wing on the ground but managed to make an emergency landing.

The book is in Chinese and open to perusal by the generic public but I don’t think there is an English version.
 
Considering there are no equivalent documents for the PLA, the whole point of PLA watching is acknowledging that we are only aware of a handful of milestones that happen to be high profile enough to make it to us

Wouldn't such papers in China be classified as "State secrets"?
 
Wouldn't such papers in China be classified as "State secrets"?

I'm not sure about their classification level, but in general there is greater secrecy for PRC military developments at all levels, whether news is "positive" or "negative".

The idea that the PLA doesn't reveal "bad news" that other military forces do is not a gotcha, because they don't reveal "good news" that other military forces do so as standard either. Putting it another way, it's just a case of overall higher levels of PRC military secrecy.
 
Saying that aircraft with clear a2a bays and main sensors, regardless of purpose of the main bay(which at least is indeed multipurpose), is no more a fighter than aircraft that literally can't engage air target...
Well, it's not obvious.
Another way to look at the evidence is that the aircraft is an attack aircraft with self defense capability.
 
I sure hope so because I can't see Boeing doing a good job and I can't see the .gov giving everything to LM again.
I think NG has been putting most of its efforts into F/A-XX especially based the success of the X-47/A/B aircraft. Poor Boeing really needs an overhaul. The new head of the Phantom Works is a former NG advanced projects person. LM could get the USAF NGAD just because Boeing could potentially screw the program up. I predict (and I could be wrong) NG for F/A-XX and LM for USAF NGAD. Now NGAS will be interesting, I know that Boeing PW is working a larger, land-based version of the MQ-25 and I think NGAS is up for grabs.
 
Considering the j-36's presumed role as a 'fightercruiser' then this article might be interesting.


[T]he People's Libration Army Air Force (PLAAF) advocates for multi-seat configurations to manage data-rich combat environments effectively.

Based on this, I think it's very likely a two-seater and I wouldn't be surprised if it was side-by side to aid quick, intuitive cooperation between the pilot and what the author calls the 'air mission commanding officer.' There's been discussion of side-by-side versus tandem in two-seat arrangements but in this case, if the J-36 isn't going to be involved in dogfights, having another head blocking some of the view isn't going to be a major problem. If the canopy really is as dark as it looks, then high visibility isn't prioritised. Moreover, it looks proportionally low and broad and while we don't have a good head-on view, the underside of the forward fuselage is quite broad compared to single-seat fighters.

The render below is not a real photograph but shows what it might look like.

Also, the attached text indicates that electrical power requirements for the various EW gear and sensors have driven engine design, further justifying the installation of three rather than two engines (though again, the central one of the system might differ significantly in bypass ratio compared with the outer two for the sake of more efficient high altitude supercruise). With all the electronic hardware and their heavy power requirements, this makes sense to me. I wouldn't be surprised if there's eventually a version with a DEW module fitted.
 

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I think NG has been putting most of its efforts into F/A-XX especially based the success of the X-47/A/B aircraft. Poor Boeing really needs an overhaul. The new head of the Phantom Works is a former NG advanced projects person. LM could get the USAF NGAD just because Boeing could potentially screw the program up. I predict (and I could be wrong) NG for F/A-XX and LM for USAF NGAD. Now NGAS will be interesting, I know that Boeing PW is working a larger, land-based version of the MQ-25 and I think NGAS is up for grabs.
As far as F/A-XX is concerned, I'd love to see NG return to its naval glory as it did with the tomcat, I mean look at the gear on this thing, sure seems beefy!
 

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Quite an irrelevant response if I may. Why an abstract, focus-shifting response to a relatively simple question: what are the so-called "pretty scathing issues" in the recent DOT&E report on the J-20 assuming he's unironically saying so?

I assume his response was sarcastic; if the PRC has a GAO equivalent, it certainly does not publish its findings. That was the point of my response: not only is information not public; sometimes it simply is not collected. There is no way to leak numbers that do not exist.
 
I assume his response was sarcastic; if the PRC has a GAO equivalent, it certainly does not publish its findings. That was the point of my response: not only is information not public; sometimes it simply is not collected. There is no way to leak numbers that do not exist.

The problem is that he was being sarcastic to begin with, and the problem is also your response.

The idea that the PLA does not collect such information is bizarre.

As I wrote above "The idea that the PLA doesn't reveal "bad news" that other military forces do is not a gotcha, because they don't reveal "good news" that other military forces do so as standard either. Putting it another way, it's just a case of overall higher levels of PRC military secrecy."


If people in the west choose to project a perception of flawless management onto PLA developments, then that's a problem with those observers, not with overall PLA opsec.
 
Here the angle is greater - 65 degrees. Maximum speed for duralumin aircraft :)

A set of seal jumps determines the length of the air intake duct. It cannot be less than a certain limit.

YF-23 - 3.7 m
Su-27 - 4.6 m
Su-57 - 4.4 m

3.7 m : 4.5m * 2500 km/h = 2056 km/h
thanks for teaching, i assume you correlate mach angle with the sweep the intake has and the Mach angle obviously gives you the speed, I did not know that but thanks.

However i guess Stealth also plays a role perhaps that is why F-117 has that acute angle.

Could you not consider J-36 also is sweeping the wings and intake based upon stealth?
 
Time again for NATO reporting name suggestions.... :D

If it´s a 'J-36': Fatnose
If it´s a 'JH-36': Fatboy
If it´s a 'H-36': Boxer (as Bill Sweetman came up with)

And just for the eventuality of a future variant without the third engine, respectively:
'Fatnose Slim'
'Fatboy Slim'
'Slim Boxer'
It's the PLAAF's Weapon of Choice.
 
Another way to look at the evidence is that the aircraft is an attack aircraft with self defense capability.
Tbh, given how we can have a felon using its main iwbs for 1 LACM, 1 ARM, 1 ASCM and 1 VLRAAM at the same time(while having self defense capability), the best way to conclude fighter/striker argument IMHO is simply multirole aircraft.

I personally consider main mission to be a2a interdiction (with other interdiction as second), but it really isn't worth breaking spears over it.
 
As far as F/A-XX is concerned, I'd love to see NG return to its naval glory as it did with the tomcat, I mean look at the gear on this thing, sure seems beefy!
Any idea what the white one might be?
 
OK, this is for everyone, let's all come up with some nice, serious CGI concepts with realistic combat potential then we'll see who's get selected by the Chinese to build a prototype or prototypes, could be fun!
 
Time again for NATO reporting name suggestions.... :D

If it´s a 'J-36': Fatnose
If it´s a 'JH-36': Fatboy
If it´s a 'H-36': Boxer (as Bill Sweetman came up with)

And just for the eventuality of a future variant without the third engine, respectively:
'Fatnose Slim'
'Fatboy Slim'
'Slim Boxer'

Personally I’d prefer something like Fury but knowing NATO naming it’ll probably be something lame like Flatfish.
 
I think that it isn't so much a discontinuity as an under device that stretches a covering to a desired contour, maintaining RCS integrity.
That's not how I read it, but it's not worth arguing over.

For what it's worth, I hope you're right and there's a skin material that stretches enough to make that work without discontinuities.


I think NG has been putting most of its efforts into F/A-XX especially based the success of the X-47/A/B aircraft. Poor Boeing really needs an overhaul. The new head of the Phantom Works is a former NG advanced projects person. LM could get the USAF NGAD just because Boeing could potentially screw the program up. I predict (and I could be wrong) NG for F/A-XX and LM for USAF NGAD. Now NGAS will be interesting, I know that Boeing PW is working a larger, land-based version of the MQ-25 and I think NGAS is up for grabs.
I agree with that. NG seems to be concentrating on FAXX and Boeing is too much of a fustercluck to give another contract to.


Stealthy tanker.



Tbh, given how we can have a felon using its main iwbs for 1 LACM, 1 ARM, 1 ASCM and 1 VLRAAM at the same time(while having self defense capability), the best way to conclude fighter/striker argument IMHO is simply multirole aircraft.

I personally consider main mission to be a2a interdiction (with other interdiction as second), but it really isn't worth breaking spears over it.
I think what people are saying is that it's not going to be as good WVR dogfighting due to the stealth requirements. So the plane is more of an "interceptor with strike/bomber capabilities" than either the "F-15-on-steroids" F-22 or the "Stealthy supersonic A-7" F-35.

And an "interceptor with strike capabilities" is a weird type of aircraft that we haven't really had before. (Maybe the French Mirage series is closest?)
 

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