SECM/Amiot Designations

[Apophenia]

Félix Amiot and SECM Corporate Timeline

The history of SECM and Félix Amiot personally are rather convoluted. Although not directly related to aircraft designations, a timeline may be useful for sorting out some of the details.

1894 - Oct 17,* Félix Amiot is born at Cherbourg in Normandy
- * Some sources say Félix Amiot was born in 1897

1908- Amiot family leave Cherbourg for Issy-les-Moulineaux
- Issy-les-Moulineaux is an outlying suburb of Paris

1912 - Félix Amiot completes his first aircraft design
- Amiot 01 monoplane at built at Issy-les-Moulineaux

1913 - Félix Amiot wrecks his sole Amiot 01 monoplane
- Amiot 01: Preserved at Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace
-- http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/listinmae/index.php/les-appareils-en-reserve/224-amiot-01

1914 - September, Félix Amiot leaves for the front.

1915 - October, Félix Amiot called back to work for Morane-Saulnier
- Develops techniques for stamped alloy parts for the aircraft industry

1916 - Defence Minister Louis Loucheur proposes Amiot direct his own factory
- Ing. Loucheur was Ministre de l'Armement and Reconstitution industrielle

191? - Some sources claim Félix Amiot had a propellor works during WWI*
- * No mention of Amiot in Les héliciers français by Gérard Hartmann [1]

1916-1917 - Société d'Emboutissage et de Constructions Mécaniques* founded
- Financed by the owners of Les Parfums Chanel, Pierre & Paul Wertheimer
-- * SECM translating as the Stamping and Mechanical Engineering Company

1917 - SECM Avenue des Ternes, Paris plant license-builds/repairs aircraft*
-- * Built Bréguet Bré XIVs, repaired Morane-Saulnier & Sopwith airframes

1917 - Late, second SECM workshop created at Colombes in NW suburbs of Paris
- Construction also begins on a new SECM factory at the Colombes site

1917-1918 - SECM licensed-construction of Bréguet Bré XIV & Bré 19 biplanes

19?? - SECM license-construction of twin-engined Farman F.50 Bn2 biplane
- F.50 Bn2, 2 x 240 hp Lorraine 8Bb engines, span 22.85 m (unequal-span)
-- 3v: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe..._Bn.2_dwg.jpg/1200px-Farman_F.50_Bn.2_dwg.jpg

1919 - SECM leaves Avenue des Ternes for 171 boulevard du Havre, Colombes

1919-1923 - SECM license-construction of Bréguet XIX biplanes at Colombes

1920 - Original aircraft design prototypes produced (SECM XX and type 100)*
-- * SECM XX Lutèce light biplane and the (unflown) SECM 100 night bomber

1921 - Official launch date for establishing SECM design office, Colombes

1922-1923 - Design of SECM 2-seat biplane trainer series prototypes

1925 - SECM license-construction of Dewoitine D 1ter fighter
- 18 Jan 1925, 1st SECM series D 1ter flew, SECM built x 108

1925 - Amiot develops SECM 120 series of large single-engine biplanes
- 1925 SECM 120, 1927 SECM 121/122/123, 1932 Amiot-SECM 124/125/126

1927-1928 - Liquidation of flying boat-maker, la Société Latham

1928 - Amiot buys ex-Latham plant at Caudebec-en-Caux in Normandy
- The Latham-designed flying boat, Amiot 110 S, completed in 1931

1929-1930 - State-owned Société Générale d'Aéronautique formed
- SGA combined 5 airframe firms* and Lorraine-Dietrich engines
-- * Incl. SECM-Amiot's Colombes and Caudebec-en-Caux plants [2]

19?? - SECM assembles CAMS 37 biplane flying boat (no details)*
- * Presumably all-metal CAMS 37/9 vers. built under SGA auspices

1934 - SGA 'money-pit' collapses, is broken up, and then sold off*
- * Félix Amiot and Wertheimers buy back both SECM factories [3]

1937 - Amiot's Caudebec-en-Caux, Normandy plant nationalized again
- The Caudebec-en-Caux facility then becomes part of SNCAN (Nord)
-- Result: SECM cannot recruit workers from Rouen industrial area

1938 - SCAN (Société des Chantiers Aéronautiques de Normandie) formed
- SCAN Cherbourg made up for lost production space at Caudebec-en-Caux
-- SCAN (sometime given as CAN) was a fully-owned subsidiary of SECM

1938 - July, SCAN wing prod'n scheduled to begin, delayed until 1939
- Being outside nationalization schemes, results in worker hortages*
-- * Due to locations and ministère du Travail favouring nat'd firms

1939 - January, Pierre Wertheimer visits US to plan aircraft plant
- New Orleans factory meant to get around Amiot's labour shortages

1939- - Air France Le Bourget/Orly hangars requisitioned for assembly

1939-1940 - Planned move of Amiot design office to new Evreux site

1940 - Planned assembly Amiot plant at Taverny (20 km NW of Paris)

1940 - June, Wertheimer brothers flee France (via Brazil) for US*
- * Some sources claim Pierre became a Director at Bell Aircraft

1940 - Félix Amiot and 3,000 workers head south for Unoccupied Zone
- Factory space in Marseilles refurb'd to maintain Vichy airframes

1943 - 1.2B franc contract with Junkers to produce 370 Ju 52/3ms*
- * Ju52/3mg14e models produced by Amiot factory at Colombes [4]

1944 - Ju 52/3m production for Luftwaffe begins at Amiot Colombes

1944 - November, French government requisitions SECM-Amiot plants

1944-1945 - Félix Amiot investigated for collaboration with Nazis

1946 - French government fully nationalizes former Amiot plants

1956 - Félix Amiot forms Constructions Mécaniques de Normandie [5]
- CMN shipyard would build racing craft & patrol boats for export

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[1] This claim is connected with the story that the Wertheimers bought a 50% interest in said Amiot propeller factory. In exchange, control of Les Parfums Chanel (which the Wertheimers had begun in 1924) was turned over to Félix Amiot for safe keeping. Minority shareholder Coco Chanel had been agitating for a greater share in the company. With the German occupation, Coco became a Nazi collaborator and denounced the Jewish Wertheimers. But, by then, control of this perfume business had been passed to the 'Aryan' Amiot. At the end of the war, Félix Amiot returned control of Les Parfums Chanel to the Wertheimer brothers.

[2] SGA's airframe-makers were formerly CAMS (Sartrouville), Hanriot (Paris and Bourges), Nieuport-Astra (Suresnes, Paris), SAB (Bacalan, Bordeaux), and SECM-Amiot (Colombes and Caudebec-en-Caux). Engine manufacturer Lorraine-Dietrich's factory was at Argenteuil (where some Amiot 350-series wings would later be built under subcontract).

[3] In the 1929 SGA nationalization, the state had paid 32M francs for SECM shares. The Wertheimer brothers and Félix Amiot bought back those majority shares in SECM for 9M francs.

[4] Production of the Ju 52/3m continued postwar in the same factory - by then renamed the Atelier Aéronautique de Colombes - under the AAC 1 designation. In total, around 415 Ju 52/3ms would be built at Colombes.

[5] Now CMN Yachts. Amiot's Cherbourg works were not part of the 1946 nationalization scheme.
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[Apophenia]

SECM/Amiot Aircraft Designations

Since Félix Amiot and the Société d'Emboutissage et de Constructions Mécaniques (SECM) were inextricably linked, the contemporary aviation press used the name Amiot and the acronym SECM interchangeably or in combination. By the late 1920s, SECM itself seems to follow suit.

By the mid-1930s, popular use of 'Amiot' seems to have all but completely eclipsed use of SECM. By that stage, 'Avions Amiot' seems to refer to the design office and its products, SECM referring more to the assembly plants. Here, for earlier designs, SECM is used unless 'Amiot' was more commonly applied by contemporary sources.

Société d'Emboutissage et de Constructions Mécaniques Designations

The early style of SECM designations is confusing. In 1920, two original aircraft designs were created (both using Félix Amiot's stamped duralumin construction techniques). One, a night bomber, is usually designated as SECM 100 (or, sometimes, as the Amiot-X). A second, the Lutèce [1] light biplane trainer was designated SECM XX (often written today as SECM 20 or even Amiot 20).

The SECM XX Lutèce [2] was followed by a series of similarly-designated designs - the SECM XXI, SECM XXII, SECM XXIII, SECM XXIV, SECM XXV, and SECM XXVI. Then, in 1923, that Roman numeral sequence abruptly halts. Which raises a few questions ...

Why does the SECM/Amiot Roman numeral sequence begin with XX? Is it simply because the SECM XX Lutèce appeared in the 20th year of the 20th Century? Or were there now-mysterious aircraft designs between the 1912 Amiot 01 and the 1920 Lutèce? Or did SECM apply its own Roman numeral designations to its license-built aircraft?

Roman vs Arabic Numerals in SECM/Amiot Aircraft Designations

Then there is the SECM 100 night-bomber prototype. Why was it given an Arabic numeral designation with a much higher number than SECM's Roman numeral sequence? Were designs aimed at the civilian market (such as flying schools) assigned Roman numerals while designs for the Aéronautique Militaire were given military-style three-digit Arabic numerals? Possibly.

In any case, after 1923, SECM abandoned its Roman numeral sequence designations. Therafter, all SECM designs received three-digit Arabic numeral designations. Still, puzzles remain. The SECM 120 long-range aircraft began as a 1923 study for a night bomber. So far, so good. But why does the SECM 110 C1 fighter design not appear until 1928? (The out-of-sequence SECM 110 was also proceeded by the SECM 121, SECM 122, and SECM 123 - all dating from 1927.)

The SECM/Amiot Aircraft Designation Style

In modern sources it has become the norm to re-render SECM Roman numeral designations in Arabic numerals. Here, Roman numerals are used (with 'also known as' listings for Arabic numerals). There are three examples of SECM/Amiot applying its own designation suffix letters. These are the 'S' of the 1927 SECM 122 S biplane and the 1931 SECM-Amiot 110 S flying boat plus the 'M' applied to the Amiot 140 series.

I must speculate about what these corporate suffixes refer to. The 110 S numbering sprang from the original Latham designation. But that number also duplicated that of the 1928 Amiot 110 fighter. The 'S' suffice served to distinguish between two '110' designs. But that 'S' suffix was also applied to the earlier record-attempt version of SECM 122. It seems reasonable to assume that 'S' stood for 'Spécial'.

As for the corporate 'M' suffix applied to 140-series designations, this is usually characterized as Amiot sticking doggedly to the increasingly out-of-date Armée de l'Air 'Multiplace de Combat' role designator. But does that explanation hold water? Armée de l'Air role designators - like their Aéronautique Militaire predecessors - invariably specify a crew size as well. Amiot corporate use does not. So we see Amiot 143 M (or 143M) in corporate use but Amiot 143 M5 in official use.

In any case, Amiot was well aware of the AdA changing roles for its designs - eg: the 'Multiplace' 143 M5 becoming the Amiot 143 Bn5 night bomber. Then there were oddities like the Amiot 141 BCR (Bombardement Combat Renseignement). Note that no crew size was specified. (Does anyone know for sure if BCR was an Armée de l'Air designator or simply an Amiot corporate concoction?)

In any case, Amiot applied that 'M' suffix to 140-series aircraft long after the Ada had abandoned the 'Multiplace de Combat' - both as a concept and as a role designator. I wonder if Amiot hadn't meant that 'M' suffix to indicate something more generic like 'Militaire'?

(Aéronautique Militaire/Armée de l'Air role designator suffixes relevant to SECM/Amiot products are listed separately below.)

SECM/Amiot designations had no prefix letters - akin to the 'Bré' prefix usually applied to Bréguet products. However, the SECM design office did use 'E' for Expérimental prefixes for design studies. (Although outside of the SECM/Amiot designation listing, I have included two 'E' studies here for their relevance to the evolution of the Amiot 340 series.)

'Missing' SECM/Amiot Aircraft Designations and Confusions

I have included the 'Amiot 13' and 'Amiot 14' although I've found no evidence for either. Still, it is possible that these designation reference otherwise unknown SECM XIII and SECM XIV designs.

There is mention of an 'Amiot 22D' [3] in a 1936 Flight article [1] on flush riveting techniques. I assume this to be a reference to the 1922 SECM XXII. But, as only three SECM XXII trainers were completed, that 'D' sub-type is improbably as well as being atypical for SECM designations of the time. As a result, the 'Amiot 22D' has been omitted from the SECM/Amiot designation listing.

Also omitted is the 'Amiot 122.EP2' (F-AIUQ) mentioned in Air Britain's The Pre-War French Register. [3] This is surely a simple typo for the Amiot 122 Bp2 pre-production recce-bomber.

Beyond the use of both Roman and Arabic numerals in SECM/Amiot designations, added confusion arises from the shift in French aircraft designation preferences to a three-digit style where the final Arabic numeral distinguished the introduction of a major model variation.

Often, the first variant (or prototype) was/is only given the first two digits. So, the prototype SECM-Amiot 120 might be correctly styled as the 'SECM-Amiot 12' (without the final '0'). But that would not have applied to production aircraft in military service. Listings like 'SECM Amiot 12BN' [3] obviously refer to the Amiot 120 Bn2 night bomber.

Searching for higher-numbered Amiot designations invariably brings up a lot of 'What-If' notions. One confirmed 'whif' that I have entertained as also being a possible 'Real World' designation is 'Amiot 200'. However improbably , 'Amiot 200' could conceiveably be a reference to the SECM-Amiot XX (in a reversal of the above-mention three-digit designation confusion). But I highly doubt it

A host of these Amiot 'What If' designation originate with 'clausuchronia'. When descriptions are read, most of these 'clausuchronia' Amiots are obviously nonsense ... but I've listed those that I've seen to avoid others wasting time on web search for such 'missing' Amiot designations.

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[1] Flight, 26 Nov 1936, 'The Aircraft Engineer' supplement, pg 580b. I regard Flight's mention of an 'Amiot M.142' (Flight, 24 Jan 1935 pg.90) as a simple garbling of Amiot 142 M.

[2] Lutèce seems to be the sole example of a popular name being applied to an Amiot/SECM design. Lutèce is the French spelling of Lutetia, the Roman city on what is now the Ile de la Cité of Paris.

[3] 'The Pre-War French Register' (Version 120211) http://www.ab-ix.co.uk/f-aaaa.pdf
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Aéronautique Militaire/Armée de l'Air/Aéronavale Role Designators

Below are listed the Aéronautique Militaire/Armée de l'Air role designators applied to SECM/Amiot types (as well as one Aéronavale role designator). The Aéronavale does not seem to have applied crew size numerals (unless re-using an AdA role designator). Oddly, no crew size numeral seems to have been applied for the AdA's 4-seat Amiot 141 BCR role designator either.

AM/AdA role designators are presented in a range of styles - with or without spaces between the aircraft type number and the role designator; with or without periods between the role designator letter(s) and the crew size number. Here I've used the space but dropped the punctuation.

Secondary roles were sometimes presented as all caps - eg 'BN5' (or 'BN.5'). Here we will use the upper and lower case style - eg Bn5.

B = Bombardement (Bomber)
- B3 : Bombardement-Triplace, eg Amiot 400 B3 project
- B4 : Bombardement-Quatre-place, eg Amiot 351 B4
- B4 : Bombardement-Cinq-place, eg Amiot 380 B5 project

BCR = Bombardement de Combat Renseignement, eg Amiot 141 BCR

BE = Bombardement et exploration (Aéronavale designator)
-- eg Amiot 150 BE (or 150 B-E), aka Amiot 150 M

Bn = Bombardement de nuit (Night Bomber)
- Bn2 : Bombardement de nuit-Biplace, eg SECM 100 Bn2
- Bn5 : Bombardement de nuit-Cinq-place, eg Amiot 143 Bn5


Bp = Bombardement et Protection* (Deterrence Bomber)
-- * On Amiot types, often give as Bombardement du Précédent
- Bp2 : Bombardement et Protection-Biplace, eg Amiot 122 Bp2
- Bp3 : Bombardement et Protection-Triplace, eg SECM 120 Bp3

Br = Bombardement de Représailles (Retaliation Bomber)
- Br3 : Bombardement de Représailles-Triplace, eg Amiot 340 Br3

C = Chasse (Fighter Aircraft)
- C1 : Chasse-Monoplace, eg SECM-Amiot 110 C1-01

M = Multiplace de Combat (multi-seat/multi-purpose aircraft)
- M4 : Multiplace de Combat-Quatre-place, eg Amiot 143 M4
- M5 : Multiplace de Combat-Cinq-place, eg Amiot 143 M5

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[Apophenia]

Félix Amiot, Société d'Emboutissage et de Constructions Mécaniques (SECM), and Avions Amiot

Amiot Projects: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.0/all.html

Félix Amiot Aircraft Designations

Amiot 01 - 1912 2-seat monoplane built at Issy-les-Moulineaux
- Amiot 01: Crashed by Félix Amiot in 1913 accident
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg210729.html#msg210729

Amiot 02 - (??) hypothetical designation

___________________


SECM (Société d'Emboutissage et de Constructions Mécaniques)

SECM XIII - (??) No details, see reply #26
- SECM XIII: aka Amiot 13

SECM XIV - (??) No details, aka Amiot 14
-- See hesham's reply #26
- SECM XIV: Poss. trimotor monoplane project*
-- * Model wind tunnel-tested in 1923
-- See hesham's replies #21 and #23

SECM XV-SECM XIX - (??) hypothetical designations

SECM XX -- 1920 Lutèce, metal* 2-seat biplane,** x 1
- SECM XX: 1 x 110 hp Le Rhône 9J rotary, span 9.50 m
-- * Fabric-covered stamped-Duralumin struc., aka SECM 20
-- ** Side-by-side (côté à côté) seating for crew

SECM XXI -- (Project) 1921 biplane, x 1 (but never flown)*
- SECM XXI: 1 x 150 hp Farman (type?),** span (??) m
-- * SECM XXI "reprised" (converted?) as sole SECM XXIII (qv)
-- ** Airframe done, cancelled Farman engine not delivered
-- ** Farman 8 V variant V-8? (far too early for 7Ea radial)
-- aka SECM 21 (contemporary use by aviation journalists)

SECM XXII - 1922 side-by-side 2-seat biplane trainer, x 3
- SECM XXII: Dual controls, as advanced trainer or tourer
- SECM XXII: 1 x 150 hp Hispano-Suiza 8A V-8, span 11.20 m
-- aka SECM 22, type 22, modèle 22, Amiot 22, Amiot XXII
-- http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/FT/FT1923/02/61-3.jpg
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg189512.html#msg189512

SECM XXIII - 1923 3-seat* sequiplane, aerial photo/air-taxi, x 1
- SECM XXIII: Enlarged SECM XXII,** night-flying equipment
- SECM XXIII: 1 x 180 hp Hispano-Suiza 8Ac V-8, span 11.20 m
- SECM XXIII: Metal tube constr., ailerons on lower wings only
-- * Pilot between wings, 2 x pax side-by-side behind wings
-- ** Or, alternatively, revised SECM XXI w/ new powerplant
-- aka SECM 23, aka Amiot Type 23, modèle 23, aka Amiot XXIII
-- SECM XXIII F-ESEF, destr'd 1924 Cherbourg landing accident
-- http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/FT/FT1922/12/764-6.jpg
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg189513.html#msg189513

SECM XXIV -- 1923 2-seat tandem* biplane school a/c, x 1
- SECM XXIV: Rotary-powered flying school SECM XXII deriv.
- SECM XXIV: 1 x 80 hp Le Rhône 9C 9-cyl rotary, span (??) m
-- * But F-AIAQ (N°4) photo shows side-by-side cockpit
-- http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/FT/FT1926/08/561-1.jpg
-- * Aviafrance says single-seat, aka SECM 24, aka Amiot 24
-- Sole example of the SECM XXIV in STAé employ until 1930

SECM XXV -- (Project) Radial-engined deriv. of SECM 24 model
- SECM XXV: 1 x 120 hp Salmson 9Ac 9-cyl radial, span (??) m
- SECM XXV: aka SECM 25, (poss.) aka Amiot 25 light transport

SECM XXVI -- 1923 2-seat biplane, 1 x 80 hp Le Rhône 9C, x 1
- SECM XXVI: To 1923 EP2 (École Pilotage double commande)*
- SECM XXVI: 1 x 80 hp Le Rhône 9C 9-cyl rotary, span (??) m
-- * Dual-control trainer, won by Morane-Saulnier 35 & Hanriot HD 14
-- aka SECM 26, aka type 26, aka modèle 26, aka Amiot Type 26

SECM 100 - (Project) 1920 single-engine, 2-seat night bomber
- SECM 100 Bn2: 1 x 500 hp Salmson 18 CNZ radial, span 15.50 m
-- aka Amiot-X, aka Amiot 100; SECM 100 built but not flown
-- Exhibited at 1922 Salon de l'Aeronautique in Paris*
-- * Intended as a replacement for the Bréguet Bré XVI**
-- ** Or poss. just 'tech demo' for steel/duralumin structure
-- https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1923/1923 - 0061.PDF

Amiot 110 - 1928 single-engine, single-seat parasol* fighter
-- * Or sequiplane (lower 'wing' = jettisonable fuel tank)
- Amiot 110: 1 x 500 hp Hispano-Suiza HS 12M,** span 10.50 m
-- ** Some source list HS 12Ma engine, others list HS 12Mb
-- 2 x Type 110 prototypes to 1927 C.1 'Jockey' competition
-- aka SECM 110, all-metal constr, 2 x 7.7 mm Vickers mgs
- Amiot 110 C1-01: Metal struct. with fabric-covered wings
-- 110 C1-01 transf. into aerobatics a/c F-AJGD, crashed
- Amiot 110 C1-02: Differed in having metal-clad wings*
-- 110 C1-02 dismantled after crash of 1st prototype
-- * Some sources say that 110 C1-01 was rebuilt as -02

Amiot 110 S - 1931 monoplane flying boat, span 23.24 m, x 2
-- 110 S: Reassignment of original Latham desig. number *
-- * Amiot bought Lathams of Caudebec-en-Caux in 1928
- Amiot 110 S: Single-engined, shoulder-wing flying boat
- Amiot 110 S: 1 x 650 hp HS 12Nbr strut-mounted above hull
-- Initial config.: 'N'-struts for pusher HS Nbr
-- http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6560197q/f3
-- Interim config.: Single strut for pusher HS Nbr
-- http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/EwingBill/11923L.jpg
-- Final config.: 'N'-struts for tractor 860 hp HS 12Ydrs
-- http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/flyboat/amiot110s/amiot110s-3.jpg
-- Armament consisted to 4 x 7.7 mm mgs plus 75 kg bombs
- Amiot 110 S: Aéronavale pilot-trainers served at Hourtin
-- aka Latham-SECM 110, SECM 110, SECM (SGA) 110, Amiot SECM 110-S

SECM 120 - 1925 bomber/transatlantic a/c, SECM 100 deriv. x 3
- SECM 120 : 1 x 580 hp Renault 12 Ma engine, span 21.50 m*
-- * Aviafrance lists SECM 120/Amiot 120 Bn2 span as 19.36 m
- SECM 120 : (Project) 1923 study by Bouchenot of night bomber
- SECM 120-01: 1925 transatlantic a/c, crashed at Villacoublay
-- Hit tree tops, Lt Amaurich unhurt, Lt-Commder Teste killed
-- http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww1/amiot122/amiot122-9.jpg
- SECM 120-02: 1925 transatlantic a/c, distance record attempt
-- Paris-Karachi attempt by Pitot and Pollon, ended in Meaux
-- http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww1/amiot122/amiot122-10.jpg
- SECM 120 S: Spécial, 3-seater, modification of SECM 120-02
-- Paris-Karachi attempt ends with engine failure in Austria
-- http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww1/amiot122/amiot122-6.jpg
- SECM 120-03: 1926 military prototype, night bomber/recce a/c
-- http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww1/amiot122/amiot122-8.jpg
-- SECM 120 Bn2: 1st AM desig., Bombardement de Nuit-Biplace
-- SECM 120 Bn2: 600 km range with 590 kg of bombs at 190 km/h
-- SECM 120 Bp3: 2nd AM desig., Bombardement + Protection-Triplace
-- SECM 120 Bp3: 1,200 km at 190 km/h on reconnaissance missions
-- http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww1/amiot122/amiot122-21.jpg

SECM 121 - 1927 2-seat record a/c, SECM 120 derivative, x 1
- SECM 121: 1 x 650/710 hp Lorraine 18Kd W-12, span ?? m
-- SECM 121 tried Paris-Karachi record with Lorraine pilots*
-- * Capt Pelletier d'Oisy and Lt Gonin crashed near Gonesse

SECM 122 - 1927 record/military a/c, derivative of SECM 120
- SECM 122: Single-engined, reverse-staggered biplane
- SECM 122 S: 1 x 650 hp Lorraine 18Ka W-18, span 21.50 m
-- SECM 122 flew 10,850 km Mediterranean circuit in 1927**
-- * 1928 10,100 km Saharan circuit flown with 4 crewmen
-- ** By Lorraine's Pelletier Oisy, Gonin, and Vigroux
- Amiot 122 Bp2: Pre-production 2-seat recce-bomber
- Amiot 122 Bp3: Recce-bomber, intervention, Saharan duty
-- Amiot 122 Bp3 'la Grosse Julie' ('Big Julie'), x 80

SECM 123 - 1927 Polish east-west Transatlantic attempt a/c
- SECM 123-01: 'Marszalek Pilsudski' lost at sea, Aug 1928
-- Commander Idzikowski & Capt Kubala rescued off Nfld
- SECM 123-02: 1929 crashed in Azores, weather/engine trouble
-- Capt Kubala survived, Cdr Idzikowski died of his burns
-- http://www.baaa-acro.com/wp-content/uploads/1929/07/SP-APO.jpg

Amiot 124 - 1932 engine testbed conv. of Amiot 122 Bp3, x 1
- Amiot 124: 1 x 1,000 hp Hispano 18Sb liquid-cooled W-12*
-- Hispano-Suiza 18Sb was a de-rated HS 18 racing engine
-- https://oldmachinepress.com/2013/07/25/hispano-suiza-18r-and-18sb-aircraft-engines/

Amiot 125 - 1932 engine testbed conv. of Amiot 122 Bp3, x 1
- Amiot 125: 1 x 900 hp Renault 18Jbr liquid-cooled W-18

Amiot 126 - 1932 engine testbed conv. of Amiot 122 Bp3, x 1
- Amiot 126, 1 x 700 hp* Lorraine 18Gad Orion W-18 engine
-- * Some sources say that 18 Gad Orion delivered 900 hp
-- Aviafrance lists Amiot 126 as 'Amiot 123 Bp3'

Amiot 127- (??) Mention by Jacques Noetinger re Léon Bourrieau
-- Rigueur et audace aux essais en vol, typo?

Amiot 128 - (??). hypothetical designation

Amiot 129 - (??) hypothetical designation

Amiot 130 - 1931 2-seat parasol reconnaissance monoplane, x 1
- Amiot 130 R2: 1 x 650 hp HS 12Nbr V-12, span 17.48 m
-- Amiot 130 meant for high-altitude recce, Ceiling 7,800 m
-- aka SECM-Amiot 130 R2, aka Amiot-SECM (SGA) 130 R.2
-- http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6554805v/f10
-- http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6554805v/f11.image

Amiot 140 - 1931 twin-engined Multiplace/bomber, span 26.40 m
- 140 M (as planned): 2 x 960 hp Lorraine 18Gad Orion W-18s
-- 140 M4: (Project) 1928 Multiplace de Combat-Quatre-place
-- 140-01: 1st prototype, 2 x Hispano-Suiza 12Nbr V-12 engines
-- https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1931/1931 - 0195.html
-- 140-02: 2nd prototype (orig. planned with 641 hp HS 12Ybrs)
-- Being identical to 140-01, 140-02 was abandoned unflown
- 140 M4: AdA ordered x 40, Nov 1933 (then tranf. to 143 M4)
-- http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww1/amiot140/amiot140-2.jpg
-- 3v: http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww1/amiot140/amiot140-1.gif
- 140T - (Project) 1932 low-wing trimotor transport
-- 140T: 10-seat, twin-boomed, metal construction
-- 140T: 3 x 120 hp Salmson 9 Ac tractors, span (??) m

- 141: 2 x 888 hp Lorraine 12Q Eider, span 24.45 m, crew x 5
-- 40 x Amiot 141 BCR (Bombardement Combat Renseignement) ordered

- 142: 2 x 860 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Yrs V-12 engines
-- 142-01: Jan 1935 HS 12Yrs-powered 142 M4 prototype, x 1
-- https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1934/1934 - 1247.html
-- 142-01: May 1936 re-engined, 937 hp Gnome-Rhône 14HAs*
-- * The G-R 14HA engine was later re-designated G-R 14AA
-- 142-01: Feb 1935 re-engined with G-R 14Ks as 143 No.75
- 143: 2 x 900 hp Gnome-Rhône 14Kdrs/Kgrs radials
-- 143 M4: (Project) Multiplace de Combat-Quatre-place
-- Original order was for Amiot 132 M4 variant
-- 143 M5: Multiplace de Combat-Cinq-place, revised desig.
-- https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1935/1935 - 0175.html
-- 143 Bn5: Bombardement de Nuit, rev. night bomber desig.
-- 143 No.100 re-eng with prototype G-R 14N radials, 1936
- 144: Jan 1936 prototype with retractable undercarriage
-- 144 M5: To 1933 Multiplace de Combat requirement, x 1
-- 144 M5: Had refined airfoil, wing flaps, retr. main u/c
-- 144 M5: AdA designation (although used as liaison a/c)
-- http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/a144/a144-7.jpg
- 145: (Project) Type 144 deriv. with 960 hp HS 14AA radials
- 146: (Project) Type 144 deriv., 1,250 hp G-R 18Lars***
-- *** Gnome et Rhône dropped the 54.2L 18L engine in 1939
- 147: Oct 1936 Type 144 deriv., 2 x 880 hp HS 12Ydrs/frs
- 148: (??) hypothetical designation
- 149: (??) hypothetical designation
- 150: 'Scout torpedo-bomber' prototype, x 1 (see below)

SECM 150 - (Project) 1926 trimotor monoplane transport
- SECM 150 - Metal construction, aka SECM 150T
- SECM 150: 3 x 350 hp engines,* 14 pax + 700 kg at 150 km/h
-- * HS or Renault, some sources list 1,050 hp total power
-- NB: Centre portion at least was completed (& displayed)
- SECM 150: aka Amiot 150 (1st), 1,000 km range at 150 km/h
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg187299.html#msg187299

Amiot 150 - (Project) 1936 landplane

Amiot 150 - 1937 naval scout torpedo-bomber prototype, x 1
- 150: Amiot 143 deriv. 2 x 900 hp G-R 14Kdrs/Kgrs radials
-- Amiot 150: 10% larger wing,* interchangable wheel/floats
-- * Featuring rounded wingtips, incr'd outer panel dihedral
-- http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww1/amiot150/amiot150-2.jpg
-- 3v: http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/JS/Janes38-3/120-1.jpg
- 150 M: Amiot corporate designation for marketing purposes
- 150 BE: Bombardement et Exploration, Aéronavale desig.**
-- ** Some sources use Amiot 150 BE, some use Amiot 150 B-E
-- Orig. with Amiot 143 tail, later repl. with twin tails
-- http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Braas/4460L.jpg
-- Sole Amiot 150 crashed at St. Raphaël, Var, in June 1939

Amiot 160: (Project) Late '20s wing study related to Amiot 150/170
- 160: Poss. single-engined recce a/c (Cuny/Danel, Docavia 23)

Amiot 160 - (Project) 1932 low-wing, twin-engine tourer
- 160T: Side-by-side 2-seater, metal const., long wings
- 160T: 2 x 90-120 hp Renault Bengali Junior, span (??) m

Amiot 160 - (Project) 1935 twin-engined 'Raid'/multi-use* monoplane
- 160 : 2 x 650 hp engines (type ??), very thick wings
-- * Listed as long-distance 'Raid' and recce/bomber type**
-- ** Related to Amiot 140 design and unbuilt 150 project
-- aka SECM 160, related to Amiot 140 and SECM 150 project

Amiot 170 - (Project) Twin-engined transport monoplane
- 170 (I) : Wing study only
- 170 (I) : Related to Amiot 140, 150, 160 recce/bombers
-- aka SECM 170, related to Amiot 140, SECM 150 and 160

Amiot 170 - (Project) 1935 twin-engined Multiplace a/c
- 170 (II) : Related to above transport(?), aka Amiot 170 M4
-- See possible wind tunnel model of Amiot 170 M4 (below)
-- http://www.wind-tunnel-models.com/wind_tunnel_model_Amiot_170M4.html

Amiot 170 - (Project) Twin-engined naval recce-bomber floatplane
- 170 (III): Twin float development of land-based Amiot 351 B4
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8590.0

Amiot 180 - (Project) 4-engined night bomber monoplane
- 180: Effectively 4-engined Amiot 140 M co-development
- 180: 4 x Hispano-Suiza or Lorraine engines, span (??) m
- 180: 5-seat night bomber, 2,000 kg bombs over 500 km
- 180: To 1932 Bn5 comp. (with LeO 300, won by Bloch 200)
-- Very thick wing related to that of the Amiot 140 series

Amiot 190 - (Project) Late '20s monoplane (no details)
- 190: Long-range bomber, very thick wing, forefather of Amiot 140

Amiot 200 - (Project) no details
-- See hesham's reply below
-- Amiot 200: What-If 'hexamoteur' leads to '210' bomber

Amiot 300 - (Project) no details
-- See hesham's reply below

Amiot 310 - (Project) no details
-- See hesham's reply below

Amiot 320 - (Project) Poss. same as E6 (below)
-- See hesham's reply below
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg226338.html#msg226338

Amiot 330 - (Project) Poss. same as E7 (below)*
-- See hesham's reply below
-- * If so, 2 x HS 9Va (Wright Cyclones), span 24.00 m
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg226338.html#msg226338


Two 'E' for Etude types are mentioned here for their relevance to the design of the Amiot 340/350/370 series. The E6 and E7 studies were products of the chief engineer and head of Amiot's research office, Jean Calvy. The E7 was presented as a model at the Salon de l'aéronautique in 1934.

Ing. Calvy was convinced that only by abandoning the gun turrets of André Dutartre's Amiot 143 design could performance be improved. Both designs would share Calvy's concept for circular-section fuselages and trapezoidal wing plans - the latter presumably describing square-cut wing tips rather than the rounded tips of the built Amiot 340.

SECM E5 - (Project) 1933 landplane concept, wind tunnel tested
-- See hesham's reply below

SECM E6 - (Project) 1934 'Raid' long-distance concept
- SECM E6: Singled-engine 'Raid' type, retracting u/c

SECM E7 - (Project) 1934 'Raid' long-distance concept
- SECM E7: Twin-engined 'Raid' type with retracting u/c
-- E7 wings described as similar to those of 340/350 series
-- E7 study leads directly to the Amiot 340 Br3 (below)


Amiot 340 - 1937 3-seat twin-engined medium bomber, x 1
- 340 Br3: (Project) 1933 retaliation bomber* submission
-- * Bombardement de Représailles, based on E7 project
- 340-01: Dec 1937, 2 x 920 hp G-R 14N 0/1, span 75' 5.5"
-- Sole prototype Amiot 340-01 conv. into Amiot 351-01
- 341: 1936 Paris Salon de Aéronautique display airframe*
-- 341 derivative intended for Istre-Damascus-Paris course
- 341: 2 x 1,100 hp Hispano-Suiza 14Hars radials, 465 km/h
-- * Amiot 341 displayed as postal a/c (despite bomb bays)
-- Amiot 341 airframe completed as prototype Amiot 340-01
- 341 B4: (Project) medium bomber for 1934 programme B4
- 341 B4: 2 x HS-12Y V-12s or G-R 14P or G-R 14N radials
- 342 B4: (Project) revised bomber for 1936 programme B4
- 343 B4: (Project) 342 B4 with revised defensive armament
- 344 : (Project) 'corsaire d'attaque', fixed nose guns
- 345 : (Project) 'corsaire de bombardement' variant
- 346 : (Project) torpedo-bomber carrying 1 x 700 kg torpedo
- 347 : (Project) torpedo-bomber carrying 2 x 700 kg torpedos
-- https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1936/1936 - 3204.html

Amiot 350 - 1939 4-seat twin-engined medium bomber series
- 350: (Project) 2 x 920 hp HS 12Y-28/29 V-12s, not built
-- 350 series to have interchangeable engines/tail units
- 351: Gnome-Rhône 14N-powered production series bomber
-- 351-01: Amiot 340-01 re-eng. w/ 1,020 hp G-R 14N-20/21
-- http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/CrupiRay/11080L.jpg
- 351 B4: Nov 1939 prod'n a/c, 2 x 950 hp G-R 14N-38/39
-- Prod'n Amiot 351 B4 had 74' 10.75" span, twin tails
-- NB: Prod'n 351 had central canopies, 351-01's offset
- 351 (Project) Sept 1942, planned conv. to transport role
-- 1942 plan to repl. 14Ns with R-R Merlin III V-12s
- 352: (Project) 2 x 1,100 hp HS 12Y-50/51 V-12 engines
- 353: 2 x 1,030 hp Rolls-Royce Merlin IIIs, raised tails
- 354 B4: Prod'n, 2 x 1,070 hp G-R 14N 48/49, single tail
-- 2 x Amiot 354 (No.69 & 79) conv. to Air France airmail
- 354 (Project) Sept 1942, planned conv. to transport role
-- 1942 plan to repl. 14Ns with R-R Merlin III V-12s
- 355: Amiot 355 No.12,* 2 x 1,200 hp G-R 14 R-2/3s **
-- * 350 series c/n assigned sequent. regardless of type
-- ** G-R 14R essentially 14N with a 2-speed supercharger
- 356: 2 x 1,130 hp Rolls-Royce Merlin X V-12, single tail
-- 356-01: Air France mailplane conv. F-BAGP, then I/KG 200
-- German Vichy occupation disrupted 354 No.10 conv. to 356
- 357: (Project) Pressurized high-altitude bomber variant
-- 357: 2 x HS 89ter (HS 12Z) V-12s with turbosuperchargers
-- Amiot 357-01 near compl. when Le Bourget plant occupied
- 358: 354 No 68 (F-BAGQ) re-engined with P&W R-1830s*
-- * Air France a/c, recovered in Dakar, also see Amiot 364
-- Flew with the Groupe de Liaisons Aériennes Ministérielles
- 359: (Project) Parallel devel. to Amiot 358 (re-engining?)
-- 359: 1942 Marseille study

Amiot 360 - (Project) Trimotor variant Amiot 370 record a/c
- 360 (I) : For long-distance flights, 3 x HS 12Y V-12s
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg200265.html#msg200265

Amiot 360 - (Project) 1939(?) Twin-engined Amiot 350 deriv.
- 360 (II): 2 x 400 hp Hispano-Suiza H (?? type ??) engines
-- See hesham's reply below

Amiot 364 - Poss. 1946 out-of-sequence re-designation*
- '364': Amiot 354 No 68 (F-BAGQ) re-engined with P&W R-1830s
-- * 'Amiot 364' likely confused with P&W-engined Amiot 358**
-- 364 and 358 were interchangable desig. according to TU 130
-- Claimed left at Istres by Germans (not recovered at Dakar)
-- NB: Both Amiot 358 & '364' said to be w/ GLAD, Villacoublay

Amiot 370 - July 1937 record attempt a/c, span 22.83 m, x 1
- 370: 2 x 860 hp HS 12Yjrs/krs, suppressed cockpit canopy*
-- * Amiot 370-01 airframe otherwise similar to Amiot 140-01
-- 370-01 F-AREU flew Air France airmail (Marseilles-Djibouti)
-- https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1937/1937 - 2246.html
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg199721.html#msg199721

Amiot 371 - Multiple assignments of designation
- 371: (Project) 1937, 340 postal variant
- 371 (1937): 2 x Gnome-Rhône 14N-20/21 radials
- 371: (Project) 193?, 370 w/ reduce wing area
- 371 (193?): 2 x Hispano-Suiza 12Y-50/51 V-12s
-- NB: 371 mentioned related to Amiot 402 (below)
- 371: What If (clausuchronia) bomber, 2 x 1800ch HS 12Z-1

Amiot 372 - (Project) no details, see hesham's reply
-- Hesham has suggested the Amiot 373 was a bomber or postal a/c
- 372: What If (clausuchronia) recce, 2 x 1800ch HS 12Z-1

Amiot 373 - What If (clausuchronia) liaison rapide deriv.
- 373: No evidence for any genuine Amiot 373 project

Amiot 374 - What If (clausuchronia) bomber, 4 x HS 12Z-1
- 373: No evidence for any genuine Amiot 374 project

Amiot 375 - (Project) 1940 high-altitude B4 4-seat bomber
- 375: Airframe under construction in 1940

Amiot 380 - (Project) 5-seat long-range 4-engined bomber
- 380: To 1937 Programme Technique A20 (Farman 222 repl.)
- 380 B5: 4 x 1,100 hp G-R 18Lars 18-cyl, speed 518 km/h
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg15252.html#msg15252
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg200265.html#msg200265
- 381: Amiot 380 deriv., 4 x 940 hp HS 14As radial engines
-- Estimated top speed for Amiot 381 bomber, 482 km/h
- 382: Amiot 380 deriv., 4 x 835 hp HS 12Y-20/21 engines
-- Estimated top speed for Amiot 382 bomber, 492 km/h
- 383: (?? ... hypothetical designation)
- 384: (?? ... hypothetical designation)
- 385: (?? Project) Bomber (no details/evidence)

Amiot 390 - (Project) Postwar, no details, see Hesham's reply
-- 390: Also What If (clausuchronia) post-1945 bomber

Amiot 400 - (Project) Stratospheric bomber, Amiot 357 deriv.
- 400 B4: Amiot 357 deriv. with NC 150-like fuselage engine*
-- * 2 x HS 12Y + 3rd HS 12Y dedicated to drive superchargers
- 400 B3: 2 x 1,200 hp HS 12Y-89, 1,200 kg bombs, def. mgs **
-- * 6 x remotely-comtrolled 7.5 mm machine guns
- 401 - (??)
- 402 - (Project) 1938 Amiot 371-derived postal a/c variant
-- 402: 2 x 900 hp engines (?? type ??), cancelled

Amiot 410 - (Project) 1938 Record version of Amiot 400 B4
- 410 (I) : Presum. 2 x HS 12Y engines as per Amiot 400 B4

Amiot 410 - (Project) Late 1938 stratospheric bomber
- 410 (II) : 4 x 1,150 hp HS 12Y-50/51 V-12s,* span (??) m
-- * Produced at 10,000 m with Farman NCC-1 superchargers
-- Prod'n order signed 24 Jan 1939, cancelled on 27 April 1940

Amiot 410 - (Project) Mid 1939 heavy bomber or transport a/c
- 410 (III): Bomber, 4 x HS 12Y-50/51s as per Amiot 410 (II)
- 410 (III): Transport, 4 x Lorraine (poss. the 24E Taurus)*
-- * 1,600 hp 24-cyl multi-bank 'radial' (6 banks of 4 rows?)
-- Prod'n order signed 24 Jan 1939, cancelled 27 April 1940

Amiot 415 - What If (clausuchronia) 'hexamoteurs' bomber
- 415: No evidence for any genuine Amiot 415 project

Amiot 420-Amiot 520 - (Projects), no details, see hesham's reply

Amiot 430 - (Project) 1942 4-engined transatlantic transport
- 430: 27 ton aircraft, Marseille study, unrelated to Amiot 530

Amiot 530 - (Project) high-winged 4-/8-engined airliner
- 530 (I) : 4 x 3,000 hp HS 24Z, contra-rotating props
-- Passenger transport derivative of Amiot 380 B5 project
- Amiot 530 (I) : 44 passengers, span 58.60 m
- 530 (II): Revised, 8 x V-12 engines mounted in 4 pairs**
-- ** 8 x paired 1,600hp HS 12Z or 1,700 hp R-R Griffons
-- Amiot 530 (II): Pax devel. of Amiot 410 (II) project
- Amiot 530 (II): 40 pax/6 crew, 57.50 tons, span 46.80 m
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg120659.html#msg120659

SECM 540 - Wing design

Amiot (??) - Licensed Junkers Ju-52/3m for Germans, x 370
- (??) : No Amiot desig. known for 1944 Junkers Ju-52/3m
-- AAC-1: Postwar prod'n at Amiot's former Colombes plant

_____________________________________

 

[hesham]

Amazing work my dear Apophenia,and I will add something tomorrow.

 

[hesham]

I can add;

SECM-X was a two-seat night bomber prototype,developed into Type-100
SECM-XI was a single seat fighter Project,not sure
SECM-XII was a two-seat light and attack bomber prototype,developed into Type-120
SECM-XIII was unknown Project
SECM-XIV was also unknown Project,but not related to Amiot-140

Amiot-101 was developed from Amiot-100 as a Project,confirm needed
Amiot-150M was appeared in 1935
Amiot-160 was unknown Project of 1935
Amiot-200 was not a typo,but unknown Project
Amiot-210 to Amiot-290 were probably not used
Amiot-300 to Amiot-330 were a real Projects,but no details are known
Amiot-360/II was a twin engined variant of Amiot-350,powered by two 400 hp Hispano-
Suiza H engines,never completed by 1939
Amiot-371 & Amiot-372 were a real Projects,one of them mentioned in TU magazine
Amiot-390 was unknown Project,no projected after 1945
Amiot-420 to Amiot-520 were unknown Projects,not a hypothetical designs
SECM-30 to SECM-90 were not used
Unknown was early 1939 design of seaplane, transatlantic, with 8 diesel engines CLM Junkers of
500hp coupled 2 by 2 and driving contra-rotating propellers

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks for those additions and details Hesham.

I'm confused by some of the earlier SECM designations. In my reading of changes in the French designation style, there are a great number of overlaps between the earlier two-digit style and the later three-digit style. Accepting that, SECM X (or SECM 10) is obviously a two-digit synonym for SECM 100 in the 3-digit system. Likewise, the SECM XII (or SECM 12) would be one-and-the-same as the SECM 120, just as the SECM XIII would be to the Amiot 130 R2.

Are you saying that the SECM X and SECM XII were both built airframes distinct from the SECM 100 and SECM 120 prototypes? And that the SECM XIII was unknown project ... perhaps unrelated to the Amiot 130?

BTW, the Amiot-150M and Amiot 160 were included in my list (the latter as a corporate designation for the 150 BE). The list has been updated with the other changes and additions.

I've corrected my unintentionally repeated old error/typo of SECM designer office head being an Ing. 'Caloy'. He was, of course, Jean Calvy (who later designed the Noratlas at Issy-les-Moulineaux). I've also added that a model of the E7 was displayed at Paris in 1934. If anyone knows of other 'E' designations, I'd love to hear about them

 

[hesham]

My dear Apophenia,

please notice that,the SECM-X and SECM-XII is already built and I displayed to them
a photos in this topic,but later they developed or redesigned as SECM or Amiot 100 &
120;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg197373.html#msg197373

For Amiot-160,there was two Projects,one of 1933 (not 1935) as you mentioned,and the second was from 1935 as Amiot began to reuse the Model number 150.

For SECM-XIII & SECM-XIV,they were appeared in 1922,and not related to Amiot-130 as I guess.

For E series,of course it was started with E1,and someone suggested that,the designation from Amiot-200 to Amiot-330 was existed and they were an experimental or improvement airplanes, remained at papers stage only,and the E7 was Amiot-330,also E6 was Amiot-320,but no confirm on this ?.

 

[Apophenia]

Many thanks Hesham.

Weird about the Amiot-300 to 330 entry ... I thought I had changed that. Anyway, I've tried to change that entry again (now including your mention of the E6 and E7) and it seems to have 'stuck' this time.

On the 1922 SECM XIII and SECM XIV: You have said that they are not related to Amiot 130 (and would, likewise, be too early for the 1931 Amiot 140). But are the XIII and XIV the same as the previously-mentioned 'Amiot 13' and 'Amiot 14' ?

Your image SECM 12.JPG showing "l'Amiot 12 no 1" also appears on airwar.ru as the "Amiot 12 (120) n.01". So mystery solved ... the SECM 12 and SECM (or Amiot) 120 are the same thing. The airwar.ru also shows the second prototype as the "Amiot 12 (120) n.02". So that also explains why Air Britain mis-identified F-AHCR as the "SECM Amiot 12BN"

Your image "SECM 10 BN2.JPG" is the sole SECM 100 on display at the 1922 Salon de l'aéronautique. A photo of the same display stand (showing the machine from a different angle) appeared in Flight, o1 Feb 1923, pg.61. So, that confirms that the SECM 10 - or "S.E.C.M. B.N.2" as Flight styled it : - are also one-and-the-same.

On the Amiot 160 projects: Is the project that I am describing misdated? If so, the 1933 was the transport monoplane. What was the 1935 project?

Thanks in advance.

(edit) I've just realized that my Amiot 200 changes did not 'take' either. That has been fixed.

 

[hesham]

My dear Apophenia,

yes,the Amiot 13 & 14 were the same as SECM XIII & XIV,and for Amiot-160,you displayed its Info right except the date,it was from 1933 and not 1935,also Amiot-170 transport was from 1933,the Amiot-160
re-allocated,was a project from 1935.

No details was survivor about Amiot-200,and SECM XV to XIX was probably not used.

 

[hesham]

Unknown was early 1939 design of seaplane, transatlantic, with 8 diesel engines CLM Junkers of
500hp coupled 2 by 2 and driving contra-rotating propellers

Maybe this Project was taken the designation between Amiot-420 up to Amiot-520,and
for the Amiot-364,I saw it on Internet before from long time ago,but I think it was a
misprint and they meant Amiot-354,but not sure.

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks Hesham. The 'Amiot 364' was also described by William Green in Warplanes of the Second World War: Bombers and Reconnaissance Aircraft (Volume 7), Macdonald, 1967.

 

[Maveric]

Félix Amiot, Société d'Emboutissage et de Constructions Mécaniques (SECM), and Avions Amiot

Amiot Projects: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.0/all.html

Félix Amiot Aircraft Designations

Amiot 01 - 1912 2-seat monoplane built at Issy-les-Moulineaux
- Amiot 01: Crashed by Félix Amiot in 1913 accident
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg210729.html#msg210729

Amiot 02 - (??) hypothetical designation

___________________


SECM (Société d'Emboutissage et de Constructions Mécaniques)

SECM XIII - (??) No details, Mentioned by Hesham
- SECM XIII: aka Amiot 13

SECM XIV - (??) No details, Mentioned by Hesham
- SECM XIV : aka Amiot 14

SECM XV-SECM XIX - (??) hypothetical designations

SECM XX -- 1920 <i>Lutèce</i>, metal* 2-seat biplane, x 1
- SECM XX: 1 x 110 hp Le Rhône 9J rotary, span 9.50 m
-- * Fabric-covered stamped-Duralumin struc., aka SECM 20

SECM XXI -- (Project) 1921 biplane, Farman engine, x 1
- SECM XXI: Built but never flown (engine not delivered)
-- aka SECM 21

SECM XXII - 1922 side-by-side 2-seat advanced trainer/tourer
- SECM XXII: Dual controls, 1 x 150 hp Hispano-Suiza HS 8A, x 3
-- 1 x 150 hp Hispano-Suiza 8A, span 11.20 m, aka SECM 22/Amiot 22
-- http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/FT/FT1923/02/61-3.jpg
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg189512.html#msg189512

SECM XXIII - 1923 3-seat* biplane, 1 x 180 hp HS 8Ac, x 1
- SECM XXIII: Enlarged SECM 22, aerial photography/transport
-- * Pilot bet. wings, 2 x pax side-by-side behind the wings
-- Span 11.20 m; aka SECM 23, aka Amiot Type 23
-- http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/FT/FT1922/12/764-6.jpg
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15820.msg189513.html#msg189513

SECM XXIV -- 1923 2-seat* biplane, 1 x 80 hp Le Rhône 9C, x 1
- SECM XXIV: Rotary-powered flying school deriv. of SECM 22
-- * <b><i>Aviafrance</i></b> says single-seat, aka SECM 24, aka Amiot 24

SECM XXV -- (Project) Radial-engined deriv. of SECM 24 model
- SECM XXV: aka SECM 25, (poss.) aka Amiot 25 light transport

SECM XXVI -- 1923 2-seat biplane, 1 x 80 hp Le Rhône 9C, x 1
- SECM XXVI: For 1923 competition for dual-control school a/c*
-- 1923 competition won by Morane-Saulnier 35 and Hanriot HD 14
-- aka SECM 26, aka Amiot Type 26


I´m a little bit confused :-[

SECM XII aka Amiot 120 and so on,
but we have also:
SECM XXVI as earlyer designation aka SECM 26 aka Amiot Type 26?????

_____________________________________

 

[hesham]

Hi,

for SECM and its products,sometimes they called it "XXVI" and anther way they
called it "26",no specific system.

 

[Apophenia]

Maveric: You're not the only one confused! As hesham notes, the designation 'style' was highly variable. AFAIK, the confusion began with a corporate insistence upon SECM branding while the aeronautical press attributed the early designs to Amiot.

The company initially used Roman numerals but the press used both Roman and Arabic numerals for designations. French sources today almost exclusively use Arabic numerals ... which doesn't help. And then there was the French habit of using 2-numeral designators for prototypes (later adding a 'zero') and three-numeral designations for derivatives

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the Amiot company used "X" series for military aircraft and "XX" series for civil aircraft at first,but during 1925-1928,
the firm changed into Arabic numbers,so Type-X became Type-100,Type-XI redesigned as Type-110,Type-XII became
Type-120,and maybe Type-XIII & Type-XIV developed into Type-130 & Type-140,and the Type-150 transport aircraft
Project used directly and no Ruman number was proceeded.

After amazing success to Type-140,it left the rest of this series (100s) to a improved or developed versions
of it,and began with 300 series,need confirm.

 

[hesham]

My dear Apophenia,

please add those designations to the list.

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks Hesham, those designations have been added. Do you have a source for these Amiot 340 series additions?

 

[hesham]

Yes my dear Apophenia,

it's TU magazine issue 130.

 

[hesham]

From Onera archive,

there is many unknown Projects;

120S was a seaplane or flying boat Project,maybe developed from Type-110S ?
150 was a landplane of 1936,maybe a third allocation to this number,because the trimotor transport was appeared in 1926 ?
SECM E-5 was a landplane Project of 1933 ?
SECM 540 was just a wing design

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[Apophenia]

Thanks hesham. The SECM 120S (Spécial) was already listed. Not a project but a completed modification of the SECM 120-02 for a failed Paris-to-Karachi flight.

The others have been added to the list.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Apophenia,

and here is an Info about Amiot-371 from TU 130 magazine.

Also SECM designed a three engined monoplane Project of 1923 ?,from Onera archive

 

[Apophenia]

Excellent. Thanks hesham!

Translating something like the following:

371: Designation retained in 1937 for a postal variant of the 340 with two Gnôme-Rhône 14N-20/21s. {Designation] then resumed for a derivative of the 370 with reduced wing area and equipped with two Hispano [Suiza] 12Y-50/51s of 1,000 hp. Abandoned due to events.

In September 1942, it was planned to replace the 14Ns of 13 Amiot 351/354 with Merlin IIIs in order to transform them into transport aircraft. The [German] invasion of the southern zone stopped this.

In 1945, the Amiot 354 No 68 was re-equipped with two Pratt & Whitney R-1830 SC 3G [R-1830-SC3-Gs]. Sometimes called Amiot 364 or 358, this aircraft was assigned to GLAM [the Groupe de Liaisons Militaires Aériennes at Villacoublay] and was finally rebuilt in March 1949. It was the last surviving machine of this family.

 

[hesham]

the Amiot company used "X" series for military aircraft and "XX" series for civil aircraft at first,but during 1925-1928,
the firm changed into Arabic numbers,so Type-X became Type-100,Type-XI redesigned as Type-110,Type-XII became
Type-120,and maybe Type-XIII & Type-XIV developed into Type-130 & Type-140,and the Type-150 transport aircraft
Project used directly and no Ruman number was proceeded.

Maybe the Project of three engined monoplane from 1923 was the same as Type-XIV ?.

Onera Archive

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks hesham, that's entirely possible. I've add a note to that effect in the SECM XIV listing.

 

[hesham]

Unknown was early 1939 design of seaplane, transatlantic, with 8 diesel engines CLM Junkers of
500 hp coupled 2 by 2 and driving contra-rotating propellers

We forget this Project.

 

[hesham]

From Czech Museum,

here is the proof for Amiot 13 & 14,or XIII & XIV.

 

[hesham]

150 was a landplane of 1936,maybe a third allocation to this number,because the trimotor transport was
appeared in 1926 ?

I can solve this,the Amiot-150 BE was a landplane version of Amiot-150M,TU 175.

 

[hesham]

I can solve this,the Amiot-150 BE was a landplane version of Amiot-150M,TU 175.

From TU 292,

we can add a five designs to him;

Amiot-140T was a low cantilever wing 10-seat transport monoplane Project of 1932,had a twin-boom configuration,powered by three 120 hp Salmson 9 Ac engines

Amiot-160T was a low wing cantilever tourer monoplane Project of 1932,the wing was consisting of two main beams,powered by two Renault 90 or 120 hp engines

Two-Seat/I was a side-by-side two-seat civil and light airplane Project of 1938,powered by one engine

Two-Seat/II was a side-by side two-seat civil and light airplane Project of 1938,powered by one engine

Four-Seat was a four-seat civil and light airplane Project of 1938,powered by two engines

 

[hesham]

From Aviation magazine 1962.

 

[hesham]

From new TU magazine;

Amiot-375 B4 was a four seat bomber as a high altitude version,under
construction in 1940,that means there was Model 372,373 & 374 as I
guess

Amiot-359 was studied in Marseille in 1942,developed in parallel with
Model-358

Amiot-430 was a 27 ton transatlantic transport Project,studied in
Marseille 1942,and powered by four engines,was not related to the
Model-530

 

[hesham]

Amiot-430 was a 27 ton transatlantic transport Project,studied in
Marseille 1942,and powered by four engines,was not related to the
Model-530

From Gallica.

 

[richard B]

Amiot 430 is a typo : Général Vuillemin flew to Berlin in 1938 with an Amiot 340 , twin engine bomber : nothing to do with a transatlantic transport ......

 

[hesham]

Amiot 430 is a typo : Général Vuillemin flew to Berlin in 1938 with an Amiot 340 , twin engine bomber : nothing to do with a transatlantic transport ......

My dear Richard,

it's only my speculation,and they never mentioned their source in the
magazine,of course they have a reliable source ?.

 

[Apophenia]

Sorry hesham, I'm confused. What exactly is "only my speculation"?

 

[hesham]

Sorry hesham, I'm confused. What exactly is "only my speculation"?

Hi Apophenia,

I meant,that was my speculation about their source,by when I translated
the text,it was not,so they wrote it in TU magazine with its details,but
they didn't mention from where?,so I searched in Gallica to can find any
hint about it,but obviously I failed.

 

[hesham]

For Amiot-160,there was two Projects,one of 1933 (not 1935) as you mentioned,and the second was from 1935 as Amiot began to reuse the Model number 150.

The Source,TU 139.

 

[hesham]

The Source,TU 139.

The two designations Amiot-160.

 

[Apophenia]

The Source,TU 139.

The two designations Amiot-160.

"We have reported the existence of an Amiot 160, twin-engined transport studied in 1933, as well as an Amiot 180, a four-engine derivative of the 140 family, studied that same year.

In the book by Jean Cuny and Raymond Danel on the Leo 45 and Amiot 350 (Docavia 23), mention is made of other studies bearing the same references:

Towards the end of the twenties, the Amiot firm studied a series of very thick wing monoplane machines which would lead to the 140 family. Among these, there is already a question of an Amiot 180, four-engined aircraft, and various single-engine reconnaissance or long-range bombardment aircraft. These last aircraft would have carried references 160 and 190. The limitations of the chosen wing however appeared rather quickly and the design office then imagined the wing which would equip the Amiot 340/350."

 

[hesham]

From Pegase 1986,

the Amiot-358,and some Projects.

 

[fortrena]

At the end of 1938, or the beginning of 1939, American representatives of Amiot proposed to Ontario-based Massey-Harris, the largest manufacturer of agricultural implements in the Commonwealth, to participate in the series production of the Amiot 350, or some other member of this family of medium bombers. An initial order for 100 aircraft seemed possible. At that time, a close associate of the president of the French firm was also looking for a factory site in Louisiana. With the Canadian government seeing no objection to this project, Massey-Harris entered into negotiations. Ontario-based Canada Cycle & Motor, the largest manufacturer of bicycles in Canada, appeared interested in participating, but time passed. In Paris, enthusiasm waned. Amiot may have offered produce a number of aircraft for the United States Army Air Corps. The latter showed little interest. All in all, the American production project was going nowhere. The French authorities were also discovering that the American businessmen with whom they had been talking with were wheeler dealers with little if any reputation, and no factory. At the end of its tether, the French Air ministry decided to drop the idea of ordering Amiot bombers in North America.