Seaplane Jetfighters

[Jemiba]

Sorry for that, but I had only this model photo with the description, saying that
"Convair tested the blended-hull concept with this scale model of the Skate.Later
studies added swept wings, then finally the delta was adopted".
The Flight article mentioned studies, which used the XB-46, but without drawings or
model photos. But with hindsight the similarity to the XB-46 is obvious ... :-[
Nevertheless, I dare to present the next Skate design :

_______________________________________________________________________________

The third design is the one, I’ve got most informations about, a cut-away and several photos
of the surprisingly well detailed hydrodynamic models. Probably this design is the one, usually
associated with the term “Convair Skate”. The fuselage basically resembles its predecessor,
but the intakes were moved forward and astonishingly low, I think, and the crew isn’t housed
in a tandem cockpit anymore, but is located in stepped side-by-side seating, similar to the british
Canberra or the DH Sea Vixen, where the navigators/radar operators seat usually was called the
“coal hole” ! Straight wing and tail surfaces have given way to swept ones, the lower part of the
tail housing a combined dive brake/water rudder. Again the position of the armament isn’t clear,
although it seems quite probable, that it would have been in the wing roots, as some details in
the cut-away seem to indicate. But we know for sure, that no turreted guns were envisaged .

(Cut-away and model photo from Mendenhall, "Delta Wings, Convair's High-Speed Planes" )

 

[Jemiba]

The last design I could find belonging to the Convair Skate line, is illustrating the shift from
the two seat to the single seat fighter and now incorporating the delta wing, the result
already is very near to the Sea Dart. Main differences are the elongated tail and the intakes
still are lower and further forward, than in the definitiv version. I’m not sure, if this version
already would have used hydroskis, or if it still would have had a step in the planing bottom.
The artist’s impression in “L’Echo des Ailes” and “Science et Vie” clearly show a step, but at l
east the description in “L’Echo des Ailes” is speaking of retractable hydroskis. An underside
view in “Flight” gives neither a clue for a step, nor for hydroskis, but it could still represent
the design with the step retracted. To my opinion, the use of hydroskis would have allowed
a flatter underside, as for the Sea Dart, so the deep fuselage of this design would be an
argument for the use of a “classical” step. For this reason, and because the step got a slight
majority, I’ve incorporated it into my drawing ;-) Length and span data are from comparison
with the Sea Dart.

Again, all these drawings should be regarded with some scepticism, as several artist’s impressions
were used as basis, which may be debatable and so probaly are some of my conclusions. But I’m
open to discussion and if we find more accurate informations, it’s no problem to iron out errors.

(Artist’s impression from “L’Echo des Ailes”, model photo from “Flight Magazine”

 

[Orionblamblam]

The delta winged one was not in the normal SKATE run of things, but was one of the "Betta" designs. Robert Bradley ran an article on this and other related Convair seaplane jet bombers in the V2N5 issue of APR several years back.

 

[Orionblamblam]

The third design is the one, I’ve got most informations about...

I have some exquistely detaield drawings of this version, I believe. General arrangements and inboard profiles. Or at least a very similar version. I'll see if I can find and scan 'em.

 

[Skybolt]

You have found something new to put for sale, Scott!

 

[Orionblamblam]

You have found something new to put for sale, Scott!

Sadly, no. These, like a lot of my Boeing items, are *not* sale-able items. So small, relatively low-resolution, free (grumble, grumble... ) snippets is all I can safely do.



However, I *do* have a lot of other things I'll be makign available soon, probably much to the annoyance of some....

 

[Orionblamblam]

Found the Skate drawings, but have not yet scanned them. Also heard back from the feller I got 'em from... and when I scan 'em, they will be scanned at high rez, and added to the list of documents and drawings I sell. WOOOO!!!

 

[Skybolt]

Great!

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the Douglas Skyrocket model with hydro-ski-equipped and a ski-plane
fighter by Mr. Henry Knowler.
http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1952/1952%20-%203459.html

 

[Antonio]

Great finding Hesham, thanks!

http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1952/1952%20-%203458.html

Early N.A.C.A. investigations
consisted of dynamic-model tests centring around
the application of hydro-skis to a modified version of the
Douglas Skyrocket research aircraft. The idea was not to
develop a hydro-ski gear for the Skyrocket, but rather to test
the feasibility of the scheme for application to a typical highspeed
aircraft.
The dynamic-model experiments allowed an evaluation of
the new configuration and tests of the modified D-558 gave
"surprising and encouraging" results. Thus, it was found
that landings in rough water at high speeds were relatively
smooth and unusually stable. The model could be landed
over a wide range of attitudes—nose high, nose low, yawed
and rolled—without upsetting. From resistance tests it was
estimated that the full-scale aircraft would have sufficient
thrust available for take-off. Finally, it was decided that the
hydro-ski gear could be used for practical high-speed marine
aircraft.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

what was this SARO twin engined flying boat fighter ?,P number ?.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1950/1950%20-%202140.html

 

[Antonio]

It is Saunders Roe P.122

You can find it in Tony Buttler's British Secret Projects: Jet Fighters since 1950

 

[Jemiba]

That's an interesting find indeed, Hesham !
Well, you can find the P.122 in Tony BSP jet fighter with an artists impression,
but that's the version with dorsal intakes, nose radome and the cockpit quite forward.
In Tagg/Wheeler "From Sea To Air", there are two versions, the above mentioned,
designated P.122/2 and the P.122/1, with nose intake, as that you've found, but with
the cockpit further aft, as the SR.A/1.
So it seems to be another one. P.122/3 ? ???

 

[Hammer Birchgrove]

http://www.strange-mecha.com/aircraft/J-Sea/J-Sea.htm

From the Strange Mecha site:

General Dynamics Submersible Fighter
(Cancelled Project for US Navy)

There's sci-fi territory.

 

[lark]

Beautifull work Jens...
Tanks a lot!

 

[Jemiba]

Found in "Der Flieger" .11.1954, a variant of the Convair Skate, already with a
delta wing, but still without the elongated tail :

 

[hesham]

Hi,

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930087704_1993087704.pdf

 

[Stargazer]

Is this the specification that produced the Convair Skate jet seaplane project (NOT the F2Y-1 Seadart)?

 

[Gannet]

There was also a Vee-Tail version of the Bureau of Aeronautics' DR 56 NACA Tank Model 248
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930086549_1993086549.pdf

P.S. My mistake the model you are showing is TANK Model 280 NOT Model 248 got sucked in by the similarity in Hull and Wing Configuration between Model 248 & 280

 

[Triton]

From Attack From The Sea: A History Of The U.S. Navy's Seaplane Striking Force
by William F. Trimble, Naval Institute Press, 2005:

As part of the Skate program, Convair explored the idea of servicing the fighter from submarines and surface ships as part of a forward-based Seaplane Striking Force. This photo shows tests with a one-tenth scale model fleet submarine and the Skate 7 dynamically similar model in the later 1940s.

 

[Triton]

Convair began work on the Y2-2 single-seat, twin-engined, supersonic delta-wing seaplane fighter in 1950. From Attack From The Sea: A History Of The U.S. Navy's Seaplane Striking Force by William F. Trimble, Naval Institute Press, 2005.

 

[airman]

About one thing i am sure : the ending of seaplane fighters and jetfighters must be researched in primary role of carriers during and after wwii !

 

[Triton]

Another photograph of the one-tenth scale model of the fleet submarine and Skate 7 aircraft tested at Convair in the late 1940s.

 

[Triton]

In the late 1940s, Ed Heinemann at the El Segundo Division of Douglas Aircraft Company was contacted by an engineer at the US Office of Naval Research in Washington DC to develop a jet aircraft that could be operated from a submarine. His design team looked at developing a fighter that could utilize the hanger for the Regulus missile in US Navy submarines.

Attached illustration of aircraft design concepts using the Regulus missile hanger by Ed Heinemann. Concept labeled "1" in the drawing is Douglas Model 640.

Drawing by Ed Heinemann of Douglas Model 640.

 

[hole in the ground]

how did it land?
???

 

[Justo Miranda]

land?
:-\

 

[Triton]

The aircraft designed by Douglas, including the Model 640, were designed to land on the water rendezvousing with a fleet submarine. The submarine could then lift the aircraft out of the water with an on-board crane.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Found additional info

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

First the earth cooled, and then somebody decided to try and fly airplanes from submarines.

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

And it's a lot easier with a helicopter...

 

[AeroFranz]

Nice! i've only ever seen an artist's impression of this one in Bill Gunston's Future Fighters, which depicts two fighters taking off from what looks like a Dutch canal (with windmills and everything).

 

[AeroFranz]

Not very observant of me ;D. yes, that was it.

 

[mattrix]

Jemiba said:

This Lockheed project looks a lot more recent, then the other projects. Somebody
who knows the mission concept behind it ? Judging the layout of this fighter, I would
think of the mid 70's, a time when all other combat seaplane projects were long
abandoned.

Your guess was quite correct. See the following excerpt from "Convair XF2Y-1 And YF2Y-1 SeaDart" by Bill Jack Long (Steve Ginter "Naval Fighter" series)

"Over twenty years after the SeaDart program ended, Lockheed Aircraft Company in Burbank, California, made design studies for a Mach Two water based fighter with the exact large single ski configuration tested on the XF2Y-1 SeaDart. Their aircraft design had a modified deltawing with twin afterburning engines mounted above the wings. Lockheed's ski designer, Frank Thornberg, had also designed the large single-ski for the Convair SeaDart. Lockheed made proposals for their aircraft to NATO nations for basing in Europe's many lakes, rivers and sheltered water areas."

A large model was made by Lockheed to promote the concept to the industry and prospective buyers.

As I understand, the artwork from Matej's post on August 28, 2006, shows the Lockheed Mach 2 seaplane over the Dutch polders.

 

[Jemiba]

Thanks for this information,

makes a lot more sense, if it was intended for use from inland water only,
as those nearly always will be relatively calm. The SeaDart would have had
a different job taking-off from the sea.
Is there a 3-view around anywhere ?

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the Douglas Skyrocket model with hydro-ski-equipped and a ski-plane
fighter by Mr. Henry Knowler.
http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1952/1952%20-%203459.html

Hi,

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930085730_1993085730.pdf

 

[hesham]

Anther NASA report about Convair Skate;

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930086882_1993086882.pdf

 

[AeroFranz]

Popular Mechanics article with a few additional pictures

http://books.google.com/books?id=3dgDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA124&dq=flying&hl=en&ei=eslETJXhNsP68Aa8gv2cDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=skate&f=false

 

[Triton]

Illustrations and models of Convair Skate from the San Diego Air and Space Museum Archive.

Sources:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4588022907/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4588645036/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4588644942/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4588644910
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4588022887/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4588644978
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4588023021
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4588022939/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4588644958

 

[Triton]

Artist's impression of seaplane jet fighters supporting amphibious landing.

Artist's impression of Convair Skate.

Source: http://steeljawscribe.com/2007/02/16/flightdeck-friday-jetski-edition-convair-xf2y-1-sea-dart

 

[amsci99]

My apologies for bringing up something from so long ago but has any of the members here found out more about the Lockheed Seaplane fighter (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,645.msg14710.html#msg14710) from the earlier threads?