Schützenpanzer Projects

[GTX]

Folks,

I recently stumbled across some references of a supposed projected German E-50 APC/IFV varient - the Schützenpanzer BÜFFEL (see bottom drawing):

Does anyone know if this was a real proposal or simply a post war fictional creation? If real, does anyone have details?

here are also some nice models of it here: http://www.nast-sonderfahrzeuge.de/fotosammlung/thumbnails.php?album=35

Regards,

Greg

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Absolutely a post war fiction. This ‘Buffel’ is just a Marder IFV constructed out of E50 type features. In WW2 the Germans did design a full tracked APC but it never entered mass production. It was a basic open top steel box on tracks.

 

[Pioneer]

Absolutely a post war fiction. This ‘Buffel’ is just a Marder IFV constructed out of E50 type features. In WW2 the Germans did design a full tracked APC but it never entered mass production. It was a basic open top steel box on tracks.

What was the name of this WWII full-tracked APC please?

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Farloccus]

Gepanzerter Mannschaftstransportwagen Kätzchen (early designation)
or Vollkettenaufklarer 38(t) Kätzchen

LINK

 

[GTX]

Thanks - I was aware of the Kätzchen. Here is a simple line drawing:

I suspected this was a fantasy creation (I guess this thread should be labeled as such now), but wasn't able to confirm.

Regards,

Greg

 

[Petrus]

Personally I think the Büffel is a post-war fake.
But besides the Kätzchen, which was to be rather a full-tracked recce vehicle than an APC, there was a much more advanced project of a real full-tracked APC (if not an IFV), namely a vehice that supposedly had been designated the Schützenpanzerwagen auf 38 (d).

Here is what is said about the design in "Czechoslovak Armoured Fighting Vehicles 1918-1948" by Kliment and Francev:

In late 1944 a specification was issued for a fully tracked personnel carrier based on a lengthened 38 (d) chassis. By adding a fifth road wheel, the length was increased to 6.2 m. The armour was 30 mm at the front and 20 mm on the sides. The vehicle was designed to carry a hemispherical turret with a dual-purpose 2 cm gun and have a crew of four. It could carry eight men in its rear section. Its weight was planned to be 12 tons and the maximum speed of 30 km/hour with a range of 200 km. Only o mock-up of this vehicle was built.

And what I have found somewhere on the Internet:

Aus der überlegung, die Panzergrenadier-Eiheiten beweglicher zu machen, wurde Ende 1944 vorgeschlagen, Fahrgestellelemente des Jagdpanzers 38D für einen Vollketten-Schützenpanzerwagen zu verwenden. Um neben den Besatzung von vier Mann eine Panzergrenadier-Gruppe unterzubringen, ergab sich die Notwendigkeit einer Verlängerung des Fahrgestells um eine zusätliche Laufrolle je Seite. Der Besatzung sollte eine 2-cm-Kwk 38 im Drehturm zum Erd- und Flugzielbeschuß zur Verfügung stehen.

Ein Holzmodell dieses Schützenpanzers 38D war vorhanden.

and the text's translation by Google Language Tools:

From the consideration to make the armored infantry units more mobile at the end of of 1944 was suggested using chassis elements of the tank destroyer Jagdpanzer 38D for a full-tracked armored infantry vehicle. In order to accommodate the crew of four men and a group (i.e. section or squad) of armored infantry, it was necessary to make extension of the chassis by an additional road-wheel on each side. The crew should have had a 2-cm-Kwk 38 in the rotating turret to engage air- and ground targets.

A wood model of this armored infantry vehicle 38D was built.

It would be absolutely fantastic to see photos of the mock-up that is mentioned in both sources as well as the vehicles' drawings.

Some time ago I found these photos of a model representing the SPW 38(d). Probably the model has been in a way based upon the available descriptions of the vehicle, may be even it is something more that an "artist's impression". I do not know.

And what about you?

Best regards,
Piotr

 

[avatar]

help! army secret projects is fast degenerating into Wunder Waffen projects! ;D

 

[GTX]

help! army secret projects is fast degenerating into Wunder Waffen projects! ;D

I don't think so - my starting post was a serious question as to whether or not this was a real project of a fake. Given the replies, I believe this has been answered, thus achieving it's purpose.

Regards,

Greg

 

[Cobra Kebab]

Everything in this topic apart from the Kätzchen is just WHIF kitbashes

 

[avatar]

hey GTX , kidding man , on this forum we are a tad touchy about wunderbar weapons, say wot!

 

[Petrus]

Is it forbidden to discuss German projects from the late period of the WW2?

I mean not 'projects' in a sort of flying saucers, X-ray or laser cannon and so forth, but serious projects. And I think that projects which materialized in a form - for exemple - of a mock-up deserve to be called 'serious'.

Best regards,
Piotr

 

[avatar]

hey I am not a moderator, but AFAIK the type you mentioned is okay.

 

[Nimitz Zhang]

I do see one problem with this though:

Personally I think the Büffel is a post-war fake.
But besides the Kätzchen, which was to be rather a full-tracked recce vehicle than an APC, there was a much more advanced project of a real full-tracked APC (if not an IFV), namely a vehice that supposedly had been designated the Schützenpanzerwagen auf 38 (d).

Here is what is said about the design in "Czechoslovak Armoured Fighting Vehicles 1918-1948" by Kliment and Francev:

In late 1944 a specification was issued for a fully tracked personnel carrier based on a lengthened 38 (d) chassis. By adding a fifth road wheel, the length was increased to 6.2 m. The armour was 30 mm at the front and 20 mm on the sides. The vehicle was designed to carry a hemispherical turret with a dual-purpose 2 cm gun and have a crew of four. It could carry eight men in its rear section. Its weight was planned to be 12 tons and the maximum speed of 30 km/hour with a range of 200 km. Only o mock-up of this vehicle was built.

And what I have found somewhere on the Internet:

Aus der überlegung, die Panzergrenadier-Eiheiten beweglicher zu machen, wurde Ende 1944 vorgeschlagen, Fahrgestellelemente des Jagdpanzers 38D für einen Vollketten-Schützenpanzerwagen zu verwenden. Um neben den Besatzung von vier Mann eine Panzergrenadier-Gruppe unterzubringen, ergab sich die Notwendigkeit einer Verlängerung des Fahrgestells um eine zusätliche Laufrolle je Seite. Der Besatzung sollte eine 2-cm-Kwk 38 im Drehturm zum Erd- und Flugzielbeschuß zur Verfügung stehen.

Ein Holzmodell dieses Schützenpanzers 38D war vorhanden.

and the text's translation by Google Language Tools:

From the consideration to make the armored infantry units more mobile at the end of of 1944 was suggested using chassis elements of the tank destroyer Jagdpanzer 38D for a full-tracked armored infantry vehicle. In order to accommodate the crew of four men and a group (i.e. section or squad) of armored infantry, it was necessary to make extension of the chassis by an additional road-wheel on each side. The crew should have had a 2-cm-Kwk 38 in the rotating turret to engage air- and ground targets.

A wood model of this armored infantry vehicle 38D was built.

It would be absolutely fantastic to see photos of the mock-up that is mentioned in both sources as well as the vehicles' drawings.

Some time ago I found these photos of a model representing the SPW 38(d). Probably the model has been in a way based upon the available descriptions of the vehicle, may be even it is something more that an "artist's impression". I do not know.

And what about you?

Best regards,
Piotr

where will you put the engine? I mean, you cannot put the engine in the infantry compartment because you need a quota of 8 infantry, you cannot put the engine in the fighting compartment because the two-man turret takes up that space (I think the engine may fit to the side if it was a smaller one-man turret with MG 151/20 that is set to one side), and you have absolutely no space for the engine in the driver's compartment, not even if you remove the radio operator.

 

[Rickshaw]

where will you put the engine? I mean, you cannot put the engine in the infantry compartment because you need a quota of 8 infantry, you cannot put the engine in the fighting compartment because the two-man turret takes up that space (I think the engine may fit to the side if it was a smaller one-man turret with MG 151/20 that is set to one side), and you have absolutely no space for the engine in the driver's compartment, not even if you remove the radio operator.

If you go back to the original post by GTX, there is a link there to where he found the Buffel vehicle. It has a drawing that shows that the Buffel was designed to have it's engine under the Glacis plate in the hull front, in front of the driver and co-driver - just as was mentioned modern "Marder-like". Indeed, the use of the firing ports in the hull sides shows just how Marder-like the vehicle actually is.

 

[Nimitz Zhang]

where will you put the engine? I mean, you cannot put the engine in the infantry compartment because you need a quota of 8 infantry, you cannot put the engine in the fighting compartment because the two-man turret takes up that space (I think the engine may fit to the side if it was a smaller one-man turret with MG 151/20 that is set to one side), and you have absolutely no space for the engine in the driver's compartment, not even if you remove the radio operator.

If you go back to the original post by GTX, there is a link there to where he found the Buffel vehicle. It has a drawing that shows that the Buffel was designed to have it's engine under the Glacis plate in the hull front, in front of the driver and co-driver - just as was mentioned modern "Marder-like". Indeed, the use of the firing ports in the hull sides shows just how Marder-like the vehicle actually is.

Buffel is a fake though. I am talking about the Schützenpanzerwagen auf 38 (d), which actually seems real.
Copied from Petrus's post:

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Here's a drawing of Schützenpanzerwagen auf 38 (d) from AFV News 1974. Looking for a better source.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

PanzerKampfwagen 38(t) Variants by David V. Nielsen has photos apparently.

 

[Nimitz Zhang]

Here's a drawing of Schützenpanzerwagen auf 38 (d) from AFV News 1974. Looking for a better source.

I understand, but the problem with that ifv drawing is that it leaves no room for the engine (or at least I cannot see a place to fit one).
You cannot fit it beneath the glacis beside the driver because the radio operator and the loader in the fighting compartment is in the way; you cannot fit one in the infantry compartment becasue then you don't have space for all 8 crew members.
The only compromise I see logical is this:

It seems much more plausible as to the placement of the engine - eliminate radio operator and loader, removing the larger two-man turret and replacing it with a smaller one-man turret armed with MG 151/20, the turret itself offset to the driver side, making room for the engine placed at the right of the driver.

There is a Russian interpretation similar to this:View attachment 617051
However, this is a direct contradiction to the original German source:
"In late 1944 a specification was issued for a fully tracked personnel carrier based on a lengthened 38 (d) chassis. By adding a fifth road wheel, the length was increased to 6.2 m. The armour was 30 mm at the front and 20 mm on the sides. The vehicle was designed to carry a hemispherical turret with a dual-purpose 2 cm gun and have a crew of four. It could carry eight men in its rear section. Its weight was planned to be 12 tons and the maximum speed of 30 km/hour with a range of 200 km. Only a mock-up of this vehicle was built."

 

[Rickshaw]

where will you put the engine? I mean, you cannot put the engine in the infantry compartment because you need a quota of 8 infantry, you cannot put the engine in the fighting compartment because the two-man turret takes up that space (I think the engine may fit to the side if it was a smaller one-man turret with MG 151/20 that is set to one side), and you have absolutely no space for the engine in the driver's compartment, not even if you remove the radio operator.

If you go back to the original post by GTX, there is a link there to where he found the Buffel vehicle. It has a drawing that shows that the Buffel was designed to have it's engine under the Glacis plate in the hull front, in front of the driver and co-driver - just as was mentioned modern "Marder-like". Indeed, the use of the firing ports in the hull sides shows just how Marder-like the vehicle actually is.

Buffel is a fake though. I am talking about the Schützenpanzerwagen auf 38 (d), which actually seems real.
Copied from Petrus's post:
View attachment 617038

Ah, in that case the engine is in the side of the passenger compartment. If it is based on the other versions of the 38(d).

 

[sgeorges4]

those E-50 what if variant are fake(but fun to do in model),none of my source talk about them+you should be more cautious about paper tank drawing in the internet.

 

[Nimitz Zhang]

Ah, in that case the engine is in the side of the passenger compartment. If it is based on the other versions of the 38(d).

But then it cannot hold 8 crew members. One side can only hold 4.

 

[Rickshaw]

Ah, in that case the engine is in the side of the passenger compartment. If it is based on the other versions of the 38(d).

But then it cannot hold 8 crew members. One side can only hold 4.

I think you'll find it can carry six. Four one side and two the other.

 

[Nimitz Zhang]

Ah, in that case the engine is in the side of the passenger compartment. If it is based on the other versions of the 38(d).

But then it cannot hold 8 crew members. One side can only hold 4.

I think you'll find it can carry six. Four one side and two the other.

The specification calls for a crew of 4 and an infantry complement of 8, with a hemisphere turret housing a KwK 38 2cm cannon (which must be manned by two people).

 

[skylancer-3441]

Pictures from article "Gedanken um geschützte fahrzeug" (GoogleTranslate: "Thoughts about protected vehicle"), which talks about nuclear war and was published in Wehrtechnische Monatshefte 1956-03

 

[Rickshaw]

Looks rather like the HS30 APC

 

[Nimitz Zhang]

Still, no one provided an answer to the dilemma of where to stick the engine into. Perhaps someone can take inspiration from HS30 APC? Or from the Schutzenpanzerwerfer designation of 38(d)? I'm pretty sure this paper vehicle is based on the lengthened version of the 38t chassis auf M, with the engine in the middle.

The position of the exhaust also suggests a mid-mounted engine.
The question is: where in the middle? Laterally or vertically? How can it still leave enough space for 8 infantry in the back?

 

[Rickshaw]

First of, you would need to eliminate the hull gun - it is superfluous, the turret is more than adequate. Without a hull gun, you have sufficient room in the hull front for the engine with the driver beside it. Of course that means removing the hull gunner as well. You could move the turret forward to above the hull gunner's position which would leave room behind it for a mid-engine design. You will note that means you end up with something akin to the HS30 but with the crew compartment to the rear where the dismounts can leave the vehicle via rear doors/ramp.

Your real problem is you are relying on a model which is not realistic because as you have noted, it is too small for the number of crew and passengers and engine. Paper projects often don't work out the way the creators of requirements want them to 'cause of real life problems. Something I have noted before.

 

[Nimitz Zhang]

First of, you would need to eliminate the hull gun - it is superfluous, the turret is more than adequate. Without a hull gun, you have sufficient room in the hull front for the engine with the driver beside it. Of course that means removing the hull gunner as well. You could move the turret forward to above the hull gunner's position which would leave room behind it for a mid-engine design. You will note that means you end up with something akin to the HS30 but with the crew compartment to the rear where the dismounts can leave the vehicle via rear doors/ramp.

Your real problem is you are relying on a model which is not realistic because as you have noted, it is too small for the number of crew and passengers and engine. Paper projects often don't work out the way the creators of requirements want them to 'cause of real life problems. Something I have noted before.

Thank you - you spoke my mind. I was tearing myself up seeking a solution when it might have been as simple as that the design (as recollected by someone) was incompatible with the specification in the first place.

 

[SPW]

Pictures from article "Gedanken um geschützte fahrzeug" (GoogleTranslate: "Thoughts about protected vehicle"), which talks about nuclear war and was published in Wehrtechnische Monatshefte 1956-03

I’m new to this forum. Thanks very much for posting this information. VERY interesting. Is there any text to go with the images; even if in German?
I have been working on this subject for years. Does anyone have a copy of the Feldgrau article mentioned in the AFV News September 1974 issue? Would very much like to see it.
I have started scaling the drawing you posted. I don’t think it’s of wartime origin, but possibly a mid 1950s version. The road wheels scale at 700mm diameter. Too small for 38d, but larger than the Saurer prototype and the later 4H3K vehicles.
Unfinished scaling drawing for reference.

Links to othe websites that might interest you:

http://zhurnalko.net/=weapon/tankomaster/1998-04. The TankMaster magazine. 1st page not found on this website.

https://www.armedconflicts.com/Schuetzenpanzerwagen-38-t217957. A very good website which I posted requests: Someone provided page 1.

Comment on the Russian material: Source unknown. Maybe alternative or unofficial work done during the end of the war. I am working on this in detail. Same questions about internals. I hope to publish on this website when ever I finish.

https://www.wk1963.at/spz_saurer_prototyp. Post-war Austrian Saurer prototype.

https://www.wk1963.at/saurer_spz. Eventual form of production in 1960s.

Note the parallel with the wartime designs.

Additional info always welcome.

 

[uk 75]

The link between the postwar HS30 design and any late war designs or prototypes is new to me. Like the smaller Hotchkiss tracked vehicles used by the West Germans, I had always taken them to be completely new.
The German Army Museum ought to know the answer to this one.

 

[uk 75]

Bundeswehr Military History Museum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SPW]

Pictures from article "Gedanken um geschützte fahrzeug" (GoogleTranslate: "Thoughts about protected vehicle"), which talks about nuclear war and was published in Wehrtechnische Monatshefte 1956-03

Oberst Hermann Weyrauther (1904-1980) was the first commander of Panzergrenadierbrigade 5 formed in 1956 when the Bundeswehr was created. Traces of War gives a brief war service. Note he was in OKH August-September 1944. Did he have access to Schützenpanzer designs???
Anyway, (skylancer) if you have the rest of the article - could you please scan it so that I can read the text. It might be very important.

 

[SPW]

I received my copy of AFV News September 1974. This SPW has fascinated me ever since. Only with the internet, in early 2001, did I find more. Sadly I didn’t keep a record of where I found it.
I finally managed a reasonable translation using Google Translation and then realised it’s importance. Attached are:
- the ~2001 item - was this from Feldgrau journal?
- 2 pages of an article I’m trying to write. Basically, these give the translation and various comments.
Feedback would be welcome.

 

[skylancer-3441]

There is an article, several pages long, and entirely in German

Page 113 contains only a drawing of this vehicle, which was posted earlier, without any text, so it was skipped

 

[skylancer-3441]

Two more pages

...my original intention was to use OCR software, like Abbyy Fine Reader for example, in order to get plain text of this article, and then proofread it line by line, and only then upload it along with original pages,
but I got busy over last two weeks, so it went no further than one or two pages

 

[SPW]

Two more pages

...my original intention was to use OCR software, like Abbyy Fine Reader for example, in order to get plain text of this article, and then proofread it line by line, and only then upload it along with original pages,
but I got busy over last two weeks, so it went no further than one or two pages

Thanks very very much for scanning those. Now to translate and see what there is. I’ve got a quicker way. Google Photos has a function that enables text to be identified and then it can be translated. This is very useful. I did a quick translate of the first few pages. Clearly he is discussing the future (as of 1956) design of APC / IFV in the context of nuclear war. Although he doesn’t say anything about WWII, he could easily be using material from that time as a basis for his work. That’s speculation. He refers to the main armament being 2cm or 3cm. 2 access hatches in the front side. Not specified whether they are in the vehicle side or top. Other access via the rear. If I manage to make a reasonable translation (I don’t speak German, but reasonably familiar with technical terms) I will post results.
Thanks again.

 

[Jemiba]

Here's the document, post processed with OCR and proofread (without guarantee !).
Please note, that spelling and diction is more, than 60 years old.

 

[SPW]

Here's the document, post processed with OCR and proofread (without guarantee !).
Please note, that spelling and diction is more, than 60 years old.

Once again, thanks very much.
Do you have any old Feldgrau journals?

 

[Jemiba]

Nope, sorry. I couldn't even find it in the catalogue of German libraries, only the Wehrtechnische Monatshefte.

 

[Nimitz Zhang]

Two more pages

...my original intention was to use OCR software, like Abbyy Fine Reader for example, in order to get plain text of this article, and then proofread it line by line, and only then upload it along with original pages,
but I got busy over last two weeks, so it went no further than one or two pages

Thanks very very much for scanning those. Now to translate and see what there is. I’ve got a quicker way. Google Photos has a function that enables text to be identified and then it can be translated. This is very useful. I did a quick translate of the first few pages. Clearly he is discussing the future (as of 1956) design of APC / IFV in the context of nuclear war. Although he doesn’t say anything about WWII, he could easily be using material from that time as a basis for his work. That’s speculation. He refers to the main armament being 2cm or 3cm. 2 access hatches in the front side. Not specified whether they are in the vehicle side or top. Other access via the rear. If I manage to make a reasonable translation (I don’t speak German, but reasonably familiar with technical terms) I will post results.
Thanks again.

I have used the Google image translation tool as well, but the translation is barely comprehensible (no grammar what so ever). I think a professional translation app is better for translating the document and want to thank @skylancer-3441 again for scanning those and possibly translating.